StargazerBill
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Reged: 01/27/07
Loc: Catawba, VA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2869799 - 01/16/09 08:12 PM
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Darn! I just tried my Orion mount for the first time and it is exactly as described. It is useless. Mounted (and balanced) my SV102ED on it, put mega tension on the ALT axis, and pointed it near zenith and it won't hold. Man I wish I had known this before I ordered. I ordered it through OPT and it was drop shipped from Orion so I don't know how a return is handled. I guess I'll start by contacting OPT. I may consider an AT Voyager although I really wanted a dual scope mount.
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: StargazerBill]
#2869896 - 01/16/09 09:05 PM
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Orion needs to pull this out of their catalogue and their website. All are defecting in the tension dept.
I'm now looking at this one:
Desert Sky Astro Products
They make them by hand in the US. They have a dual mount version that with the tripod goes for a little over $400. I think I'll contact them on Monday.
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Erik D
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Reged: 04/28/03
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: StargazerBill]
#2870109 - 01/16/09 11:02 PM
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Darn! I just tried my Orion mount for the first time and it is exactly as described. It is useless. Mounted (and balanced) my SV102ED on it,
..... put mega tension on the ALT axis, and pointed it near zenith and it won't hold......
I am having trouble understanding this. By def, if a load is balanced you should have exactly equal load on both side of the pivot point/axis of rotation. The OTA should stay at any angle you point at with no tension needed. If that's not the case you did NOT achieve balance in the first place.
Once balanced, the only way you upset the balance is if you remove a EP or diagonal to lighten the load at the rear. In which case the objective end will dive. If you add a heavier load to the rear of the scope the objective end will want to point up.
A balanced scope should stay balanced unless you do either of the above to it. Does that make sense?
--------------------------------
Starlight: I checked the operation of my Giro 2 DX again today. If I tighten the alt knob I can increase the tension sufficiently to remove the the 9X50 finder and the OTA will stay horizontal. However, even at max tension the head is not locked. I can still tilt the OTA. Just take a bit more force.
If I remove the 50mm finder+ the 2 inch diag, 8-24mm zoom EP AND the 2 in to 1.25 inch adapter all together the unbalance is too much for the head. The scope WILL dive. Unlike the altitude lock on my Bogen fluid head, I don't think the Giro Altitude knob is designed to apply sufficient tension to LOCK the head.
ERik D
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Erik D]
#2870171 - 01/16/09 11:44 PM
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Here's the problem in a nutshell. I could perfectly achieve balance. The problem was when I removed an eyepiece. The scope would fall. The tension knob wouldn't hold it. So there I am with two scopes trying to change out an eyepiece while holding onto one of them so they won't do a nosedive on me. The heavier the scope or scopes, the worse it is. I had no trouble when using a lighter single scope that I balanced such as my Vixen 70mm. The tension knob held it. That is unless I was pointing towards zenith. Then it refused to work altogether.
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Luigi
Postmaster
   
Reged: 07/03/07
Loc: MA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2870474 - 01/17/09 08:10 AM
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I believe the AZ mount to be much more robust than the Voyager, both the tripod and the mount itself. They are coming out with a upgraded Voyager, but AFAIK the only improvement is larger bearings. I will be improving the friction issue my AZ, when I get around to it. With the current weather, there hasn't been much of a sense of urgency.
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StargazerBill
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 01/27/07
Loc: Catawba, VA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Erik D]
#2870510 - 01/17/09 08:48 AM
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Darn! I just tried my Orion mount for the first time and it is exactly as described. It is useless. Mounted (and balanced) my SV102ED on it,
..... put mega tension on the ALT axis, and pointed it near zenith and it won't hold......
I am having trouble understanding this. By def, if a load is balanced you should have exactly equal load on both side of the pivot point/axis of rotation. The OTA should stay at any angle you point at with no tension needed. If that's not the case you did NOT achieve balance in the first place.
Once balanced, the only way you upset the balance is if you remove a EP or diagonal to lighten the load at the rear. In which case the objective end will dive. If you add a heavier load to the rear of the scope the objective end will want to point up.
A balanced scope should stay balanced unless you do either of the above to it. Does that make sense?
--------------------------------
ERik D
I balanced the scope as well as I have ever balanced a scope. I've used many scopes on probably 6 or 7 different Alt/Az mount over the years and never had this problem. OK, I may not have balanced the scope down to the last milligram. Even if it were balanced to that degree as soon as an EP is changed that all goes out the window. A mount should be able to retain position with a few ounces of weight redistribution. If I have to re-balance my scope (down to the last milligram) every time I change an EP or tweak focus then the mount is useless to me.
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rnoelle
super member
   
Reged: 01/23/08
Loc: SW Oregon
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: StargazerBill]
#2870975 - 01/17/09 01:05 PM
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Ah, BALANCE, BALANCE, BALANCE!!
As many of you have experienced, balance is the key to this mount design. IMO, the bearing surfaces just aren't large enough to provide sufficient tension to accomodate ep weight changes. I found the same issues with the SV-M1; it's well made and performed wonderfully when in perfect balance, but change ep's and increase the tension, stiction becomes an issue and you lose the smooth tracking.
Again, IMO, it's disappointing to see all these issues with what's on the market. I'm relatively new to observing, but one would think there would be a higher state of the art for dedicated astro alt-az mounts in the year 2009 a.d. I'm now using a Bogen video head (501HDV)that has a counterbalance spring that is amazingly forgiving with ep balance changes. Perhaps some mfrs. will incorporate this concept into a dual scope type mount like the Sykview.
just my .02
--Bob
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: rnoelle]
#2871142 - 01/17/09 02:33 PM
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I'm back to using my Portamount. I either have a good one or they're better than some have suggested. It has enough tension to allow me not to worry when changing out eyepieces. It slews smoothly. The slow motion controls work flawlessly and now with wooden legs, vibration is not an issue unless I try to use my C4-R which is just too long for the Portamount.
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rnoelle
super member
   
Reged: 01/23/08
Loc: SW Oregon
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2871191 - 01/17/09 02:58 PM
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Yeah, I continue to hear great things about both the Portamount and Voyager, but have never had the opportunity to try one out. The slo-mo's seem like they would really be a plus, but I haven't yet found that to be a necessity if the mount is moving smoothly.
Starlighter, I see you swapped the legs. One of the reasons I bypassed the Porta was the tripod ... I've really been partial to my Bogens and didn't really want to purchase another tripod that I probably would not be happy with. Seems to me I looked into trying to purchase the Porta head only and struck a dead-end on that. So, what was involved with the leg swap?
--Bob
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: rnoelle]
#2871275 - 01/17/09 03:48 PM
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The leg swap took all of five minutes. You just unscrew the bolts holding the stock aluminum legs, remove the legs and then line up the wooden ones and using the bolts that comes with the Hands On Optics wooden legs, shove them in and tighten them. That's it. The wooden legs have a much better accessory tray. It's made of metal while the Vixen is plastic.
I just spoke with Raul at Desert Sky and I just might buy his mount only this time with just a single head. He assured me his mount has enough tension when the knob is in to stop the scope from dropping when changing out eyepieces. He also said his surveyor's tripod is rigid enough to stop vibration.
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rnoelle
super member
   
Reged: 01/23/08
Loc: SW Oregon
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2871329 - 01/17/09 04:27 PM
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Thanks Starlighter, sounds like there's some standard and compatibility regarding bolt patterns. I wish that would just mate to a 3/8-16 tripod, but the bolt configuration would appear to be much more stable. Apologies for sidetracking your thread with this.
BTW, I have since gotten through the recent threads relative to the Skyview and I think I understand the issue a little more. Won't be the last time my .02 is somewhere around .002! 
I'll look forward to your assessment of the DSV if that's the route you take.
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2871966 - 01/17/09 09:50 PM
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One thing I should add. Raul told me his mount is really best suited for refractors 90mm and under. A long 102mm would tax its limits. That might hold me back from buying one since it would be nice to be able to use my C4-R on it. Otherwise, I have to carry out its CG4 EQ mount which with its 2" tubular steel legs is a real pain.
A salesman at OPT swore the brand new Skywatcher AZ4 will easily handle my C4-R and it's just $250. But no one has posted a review as yet so unless I can see one mounted to a long refractor, I'll pass. Sales people will sometimes say anything in order to sell something.
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Erik D
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Reged: 04/28/03
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2872521 - 01/18/09 08:40 AM
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This is a paragraph from the Desert Sky web page:
----------------------------------
DSV-1 'Steady View' Alt-Azimuth Mount
Designed for uncomplicated enjoyment of the night sky, the
DSV-1 provides simple grab and go, point and look operation
We craft the Steady View alt-azimuth mount from aluminum and stainless
steel components.
The shafts ride on ball and needle bearings to ensure
smooth movements and long lasting accuracy......
--------------------------------
Note what it says about using "Ball and Needle Bearings" . This design offers better accuracy and and smooth motion but also reduces friction to minimum.... making EXACT balance even more critical. That's the nature of the design. A balanced load WILL stay in balance regardless of elevation. But if you add wt or remove wt you will upset the balance and rebalancing is necessary.
Other types of alt az mount not using the side mount design may not require rebalancing but you are either relying on additional friction or a stress on the gear head to overcome the inbalance. Apply enough friction to an off balance fluid head and you no longer have a fluid head. A motor driven mount needs to be balanced when you attach a 3 lb binoviewer with two oversized EPs on the scope too.
The old Vixen Custom D Alt Az mount can handle a heavier load than the Orion Az-3 mount. It uses counter weight(s) for better balance:
http://cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=797
Remember with a side mount alt az head you are relying on a threaded bolt about 1/2 inch dia to press down on a polished smooth steel shaft to increase tension. The EP location of my 6 inch F8 refractor could be as much as 3 ft from the mounting point. I need to apply a LOT of tension to hold a ~3 lb unbalanced load with a 3 ft moment arm when I remove the 50mm finder, Zoom EP and 2 inch diagonal altogether at the same time. I do not trust increased tension alone to hold the OTA.
Newton's law of motion: A body in motion wants to keep going.
I have several Bogen fluid heads. Including a 501 head rated for 13 lbs( no counter balance spring) and a 516 head rated for 22 lbs (16.5 lb fixed counter balance spring). Employing a counter balance spring works well..... up to a point. Unlike a side mount design the OTA sits ABOVE the axis of rotation, and the center of gravity shifts when you tilt up. The counter balance spring must be the correct match for the unbalanced load. Other wise you will be fighting spring tension.
I am using the Bogen 516 fluid head to mount my Miyauchi 100mm F7.5 binocular. OTA length is close to 30 inch and wt is ~ 15 lb with 7X50 finder attached. The 16.5 lb counter balance spring works great between ~+30 deg to +70 deg. Trying to view objects above +70 degs means I have to fight the spring force to keep the OTA pointed UP. Works fine at low power but at 54X with my hands on the dual pan handles I can see a bit a vibration in the EPs. I must rebalance by sliding the dovetail plate forward if I want to observe objects lower than ~ 30 deg also. Otherwise I will have to apply upward force to keep the OTA near horizontal. There is always a trade off.....
The newer Bogen/Manfrotto 501/503 HDV heads have different dial settings to vary spring tension to match the load. Should work better than the fixed spring of my 516 head.
Oh, I should add that Fluid Heads work fine with giant binoculars up to my Miyauchi 54X100. It's more difficult to make fine adjustments to track objects at higher power (100X) or more. I don't think I would use my fluid head at 150X even if it can support the load.
ERik D
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Erik D]
#2873086 - 01/18/09 01:36 PM
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Thanks Erik for all the info.
I think I'm just going to keep using my Portamount until at some point I can see firsthand a few different types of AZ mounts working in order for me to properly evaluate them. Perhaps at a star party since most scope stores near me don't have them on display.
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2873298 - 01/18/09 03:17 PM
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Darn! I now miss the Orion. Why? It had hardly any vibration when focusing and that was when I was using my C4-R at high magnification. Once the scope was properly balanced, the mount worked flawlessly. It just wouldn't remain in place to allow me to change out eyepieces before rebalancing. Oh well....
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StargazerBill
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 01/27/07
Loc: Catawba, VA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Starlighter]
#2874836 - 01/19/09 10:03 AM
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Regarding the balance/friction issue with the Orion, specifically the tendency of the scope to flop when approaching zenith, no matter how much tension is applied;
There are at least 3 recent threads discussing this problem (I am posting this in all of them, BTW). In these threads there have been a number of posts that take issue with people who said their scopes were balanced and it still drifted when reaching zenith. They were quick to point out that if that happened the scope wasn't actually balanced in the first place; if the scope was balanced properly it wouldn't need any tension at all, etc. (implying some degree of "operator error") The following just occurred to me. At least in my case it isn't that simple. My SV102ED has a 50mm right angle finder scope mounted on upper part of the clamshell. Imagine a vertical line running through the center of the ALT axis. When the scope is level (horizontal) and balanced part of the finder sits forward of this "balance line" and part is aft. As the scope is pointed upward the finder rotates around this axis putting more of the weight of the finder behind this balance line. And, when near zenith the entire weight of the finder has shifted to the rear of this line, putting the scope out of balance. So no matter how balanced the scope is when horizontal that changes as the scope is rotated. This is just one example illustrating that the "properly balanced, all is well" theory is overly simplistic.
This brings me back again to my original complaint about this mount. A mount of this design should be able to handle minor changes in balance. In the past I have used a number of similar mounts including the WO EZ Touch. With all previous mounts I would roughly balance the scope once. Then with the tension set properly I could change EPs, view at or near zenith, and generally go about the business of observing for the rest of the night without even thinking about balance again. If I have to continually futz with a scope all night trying to keep it where I point it or keep it from taking a nosedive when I remove an EP then something is wrong......with the mount.
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Erik D
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: StargazerBill]
#2875167 - 01/19/09 12:43 PM
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...... My SV102ED has a 50mm right angle finder scope mounted on upper part of the clamshell. Imagine a vertical line running through the center of the ALT axis. When the scope is level (horizontal) and balanced part of the finder sits forward of this "balance line" and part is aft......
As the scope is pointed upward the finder rotates around this axis putting more of the weight of the finder behind this balance line. And, when near zenith the entire weight of the finder has shifted to the rear of this line, putting the scope out of balance. So no matter how balanced the scope is when horizontal that changes as the scope is rotated.
Bill,
I had a look your scope and clamshell arrangement on the SV page. Did NOT know you are mounting a 50 mm finder right ON the clamshell. Now it makes sense.
I agree the finder location is the cause of the problem. You can never balance the scope for all altitudes with the finder mounted on the clamshell. You could achieve perfect balance at horizontal but the entire weight of the finder scope shift either forward or backward as soon as you change elevation.
You can rebalance all you want for another elevation but tilt the OTA and the load will be unbalanced again. This is the same problem as having an OTA mounted above a fluid head except better quality fluid heads such as the Bogen 501/503 HDV have separate tension adjustment and locking lever. You can increase the friction to hold the OTA at another elevation without locking it. You can Lock the head for safety whenever you wish.
I see no way around the problem as long as you are dealing with side mount and a load located right AT the clamshell. One solution I can think of is to switch to a two ring mounting arrangement on a longer dovetail plate. You can locate the finder on the rear mounting ring where the load will not shift to the OTHER side of the balance point. The OTA of the SV 102 is not very long. I am not sure how far you can space the rings to make this work or if it's worth the bother.
You will have to deal with same issues with shifting balance point even if you switch to a heavier duty Giro mount.
I had a look at the hitch mount with the slo mo controls. Look like a very nice mount but it's also over $1,200 when I added the shipping and packing charges.
ERik D
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Erik D]
#2875192 - 01/19/09 12:54 PM Attachment (32 downloads)
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I had the same problem when using my 6" SCT which has the 50mm RACI finder mounted onto the right side of the OTA. It did this with or without the Meade 80mm Attached. And I had both scopes balanced out as best I could.
With just the 80mm Meade, the mount worked like a charm. It had enough tension to keep the scope from moving when changing out eyepieces. I could then back off the tension knob, point it at zenith and walk away and it remained there.
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StargazerBill
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 01/27/07
Loc: Catawba, VA
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: Erik D]
#2875283 - 01/19/09 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
...... My SV102ED has a 50mm right angle finder scope mounted on upper part of the clamshell. Imagine a vertical line running through the center of the ALT axis. When the scope is level (horizontal) and balanced part of the finder sits forward of this "balance line" and part is aft......
As the scope is pointed upward the finder rotates around this axis putting more of the weight of the finder behind this balance line. And, when near zenith the entire weight of the finder has shifted to the rear of this line, putting the scope out of balance. So no matter how balanced the scope is when horizontal that changes as the scope is rotated.
Bill,
I had a look your scope and clamshell arrangement on the SV page. Did NOT know you are mounting a 50 mm finder right ON the clamshell. Now it makes sense. -snip-
I agree the finder location is the cause of the problem.
-snip-
One solution I can think of is to switch to a two ring mounting arrangement on a longer dovetail plate. You can locate the finder on the rear mounting ring where the load will not shift to the OTHER side of the balance point. ERik D
Problem is, I like the finder exactly where it is. And, as I said, with the EZ Touch I had no problem with this at all. I'm hoping to return the Orion and guess I'll have to get another EZ Touch.
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Starlighter
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Reged: 08/03/07
Loc: Sunny California
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Re: Orion Skyview AZ Mount - First Impressions
[Re: StargazerBill]
#2875448 - 01/19/09 03:05 PM
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I'm not moving my finder either. I figure the Orion needs a lockdown knob. I told this to the tech support fellow on the phone. He intimated this is a request they're getting from a lot of people who bought the mount and are now suffering with its inadequacy. If a newer version comes out with that feature, I'll be one of the first to purchase it. For now it's back to using the Portamount or my EQ mount or my Nexstar goto.
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