Telescope Reviews: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow

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Patrick
Postmaster

Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio

Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow
#2882758 - 01/23/09 10:40 AM

I finally got the chance to get out last night (a reasonable 30 deg temp and CLEAR skies). One of my goals was to check out the latest Celestron firmware 4.15 and especially the polar alignment routine.

I don't think it could have been easier.

After doing a 2 star plus 2 calibration star alignment (with Betelgeuse being the last calibration star) I went to the Align menu and selected the Polar Align feature. Of course, I hadn't read the manual before setting out (typical guy...well, actually I didn't have the manual, come to think of it), so I was surprised that it asked me to go to Betelgeuse and USE THE HANDCONTOLLER to center the star, but I just followed the instructions and hit Enter after centering up the star.

NEXT, the mount did a little whirring around and came back CLOSE to Beletgeuse. THIS time the HC asked me to MANUALLY move the mount using the alt/az screw adjustments to center Betelgeuse in the eyepiece (I was using a reticle eyepiece in the C6). Okay, now it was starting to make some sense. I centered the star and hit enter and was done.

I was done?? No way...that was too easy. That only took 30 seconds! What would I do with the 45 minutes I normally spend doing a drift align? And I didn't have to have Polaris in view?! I yelled out a war whoop and my wife came to the door to ask me if I was okay. Apparently I had scared her with all the loud exclamations.

Yes, honey, I'm okay, really okay...thanks Celestron!

Patrick

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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 06/03/06

Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2882771 - 01/23/09 10:43 AM

Nice Patrick! So is there also the ability to add more iterations if you want?

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Strgazr27

Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2882776 - 01/23/09 10:44 AM

Patrick,

Sounds good but I wonder how accurate it is. With the older PA routine I would do a 3 star, followed by 4 cone stars and than follow the routine and it was amazingly accurate. Good enough for no rotation over 5 hours of imaging. This simpler method would be great if it achieves the same accuracy.

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Patrick
Postmaster

Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Strgazr27]
#2882803 - 01/23/09 10:56 AM

Quote:

Sounds good but I wonder how accurate it is.

The verdict is still out on that one. I think the only way to verify the accuracy is to do a drift alignment which I didn't do last night. Also, I suspect the accuracy can be improved by using a very long focal length scope...probably barlowed, and a reticle eyepiece is a must have item.

Patrick

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Strgazr27

Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2882824 - 01/23/09 11:08 AM

Thanks Pat, If you get a chance to test it out further keep us posted

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Tim C
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 11/11/07

Loc: Marietta, GA

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2882838 - 01/23/09 11:19 AM

I've used the all star routine 3 times so far (2 star +2 or 3 calibration stars) and each time I've had to make adjustments when drift aligning. It gets you close but so far doesn't seem to be good enough to avoid drift aligning. It's a very useful feature when you can't see Polaris (like me when in my yard). I did buy the cheap celestron polar scope which I plan to use when I'm not in the yard. With my old lxd75, I was frequently able to get excellent alignment just using the polar scope and didn't have to make any adjustments when drift aligning. I always had to make sure the polar scope was well aligned with the mount though which was a pain with the 75 since the polar scope would move when the wind blew (it seemed). I'm hoping the celestron is better since it screws into the mount.

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MartyT
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 09/28/07

Loc: Kansas City

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Tim C]
#2882912 - 01/23/09 11:58 AM

The accuracy of the new "all star" polar align depends quite a bit on the location of the star used for the alignment. Ideally, you want something close to the intersection of the meridian and celestial equator for best results.

I've only used the new routine a couple of times and am still learning the in's and out's of it, but I expect it to be every bit as accurate as the old polar alignment, and certainly good enough to accommodate ~8-10 minute guided exposures with no discernible field rotation.

I'm personally not concerned with whether the alignment "eventually" shows field rotation after several hours - all that matters to me is that my individual frames don't show any rotation. DeepSky Stacker will align the frames no matter how badly rotated they might be.

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Strgazr27

Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: MartyT]
#2882937 - 01/23/09 12:12 PM

Marty,

Your right that DSS will do that but you wind up having to crop edges and such due to the misalignment. If your guiding very close to the object your imaging the rotation can be exaggerated making it worse. With the older PA routine and my CGE if I ran the routine twice it would allow me to get within a few arc seconds of the pole. 6 hour plus imaging runs showed ZERO rotation in DSS or IPV3.

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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 06/03/06

Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Strgazr27]
#2882951 - 01/23/09 12:24 PM

The accuracy is a result of the "error ellipse" being made smaller by the accuracy of the math and the pointing. Hence the agreement of a barlow plus a cross-hair eyepiece comment. But also why I am asking if you can add iterations. As you add iterations, in theory, your error ellipse will get smaller and smaller. Even the best math routines would benefit from iterations. And for my use and proposed field use on my new CGE when I get it, a couple more iterations for a more refined polar alignment would be worth it for field trips with setups that stay for a couple to 3 days or more at a time.

Now for use in the observatory, drift alignment will be the only method used as I will have time to fully refine the alingment and keep it that way for long periods of time.

Also note that even the drift alignemnt proceedure using barlows and cross-hair eyepieces will still require iterations to perfect.

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MichaelW
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 06/03/06

Loc: Cartoon City, Nirvana

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: MichaelW]
#2882963 - 01/23/09 12:28 PM

I should add that, of course you could just do more polar aligments by intiating it via the hand controller. But I am curious if iterations can be performed by continuing on in the same command without exiting the command and reinstigating it. Similar to adding stars for pointing accuracy.

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Patrick
Postmaster

Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: MichaelW]
#2883061 - 01/23/09 01:28 PM

Quote:

But also why I am asking if you can add iterations. As you add iterations, in theory, your error ellipse will get smaller and smaller. Even the best math routines would benefit from iterations.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't do more than one polar alignment routine on different stars. I didn't try it but I'm guessing that I could have picked a different star from Betelgeuse. I'll have to give that a go next time I'm out to see if that helps.

The reason I'm so happy about this is because I've had to setup and tear down every time I use the scope. Eliminating the hour+ time it takes to go through the drift alignment is a God-send.

Patrick

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Patrick
Postmaster

Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: MichaelW]
#2883350 - 01/23/09 04:18 PM

Quote:

I should add that, of course you could just do more polar aligments by intiating it via the hand controller. But I am curious if iterations can be performed by continuing on in the same command without exiting the command and reinstigating it. Similar to adding stars for pointing accuracy.

Sorry, I didn't read this post more carefully before responding above. I don't recall being given the opportunity to add another iteration to the polar alignment similar to adding calibration stars.

I have to think though that if you do a good job of calibration during the goto alignment, the HC will know where things should be. I'm not sure if doing a second polar alignment overrides the first one either. Nevertheless, I think doing a good goto alignment at high power and doing the polar alignment at high power will go a long way in getting a decent polar alignment...at least that's what I'm hoping. I do not like spending a lot of time drift aligning...it really puts me off wanting to image, especially on short notice. If I had a permanent setup, it would be different. Hopefully this well help.

Patrick

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m2434
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/01/09

Loc: on the road

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2884093 - 01/23/09 10:55 PM

hmm... I've been reading a little about "all-star alighment" now and it sounds intriguing. However, like TimC, I'm coming from an LXD75 mount and my experience has been that using the polar alignment scope is sufficient to avoid drift aligning and image all night with almost no field rotation. I think I'd be disappointed if a new mount didn't do at least as well....

I can't find anything on Celstrons site about itterations,
but it seems like if you used the polar scope first, then this would be like doing 1 iteration. I wonder if this would provide a benefit over just doing all-star alignment?
or just a polar scope alignment?

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Patrick
Postmaster

Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: m2434]
#2884138 - 01/23/09 11:20 PM

Quote:

but it seems like if you used the polar scope first

I can't see Polaris through my polar scope hole from my observing site. The polar alignment routine is just one additional step after the goto alignment...that's what makes it so sweet. Yeah...you still need to point the mount in the general direction of Polaris...sighting through the polar scope hole (if you can see Polaris) or using a compass. I can just see Polaris over the top of my house so I can eyeball the mounts northerly position.

Patrick

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m2434
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/01/09

Loc: on the road

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2884230 - 01/24/09 12:09 AM

I dread the idea of not seeing polaris, but good to know there are options

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apartment42
member

Reged: 03/15/08

Loc: Toronto, Canada

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: m2434]
#2884312 - 01/24/09 01:43 AM

From a purely visual observer's point of view, this is one report that reads like 5 carbon stars! Thanks very much for posting your experience thus far.

-A

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donsinger1
sage

Reged: 10/28/07

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: Patrick]
#2884332 - 01/24/09 02:00 AM

Patrick:

I cannot see Polaris either. And, typically, when I am in the field, I just fire up WCS Polar Alignment and am good to go within no more than 10-15 minutes, and can image long guided exposures all night long.

Check it out.

http://wcs.ruthner.at/index-en.php

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Patrick
Postmaster

Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: donsinger1]
#2884501 - 01/24/09 07:40 AM

Quote:

WCS Polar Alignment

I've got the program loaded on my computer, but I haven't used it yet. I'll give it a try next time out.

Thanks.

Patrick

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rmollise
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Reged: 07/06/07

Re: Celestron's New Polar Align is the Cat's Meow new

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[Re: m2434]
#2884615 - 01/24/09 09:28 AM

Quote:

hmm... I've been reading a little about "all-star alighment" now and it sounds intriguing. However, like TimC, I'm coming from an LXD75 mount and my experience has been that using the polar alignment scope is sufficient ?

The bottom line is that the old Celestron HC polar align routine produced alignments at least as good (or better) than what's usually possible with a polar scope. With the added benefit of not having to squint through and mess with one of the consarned things. The new routine may be more accurate than the old.

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