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International Year of Astronomy 2009 >> Special Task Groups

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Brian W
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Native North Americans
      #2926487 - 02/13/09 10:43 PM

Hi, not sure if this belongs here or somewhere else but here goes. I spent many years with the Haisla people who live on the north-west coast of Canada. Part of the oral tradition that was shared with me involved how the sun was used as it set along the mountain range of Douglas Channel to mark the solar year and to keep preparations moving along for the various yearly activities that needed to be completed for the survival of the people.
Brian

--------------------
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llanitedave
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: Brian W]
      #2944041 - 02/23/09 12:14 AM

Did they have a particular vantage point to do their observing and marking from?

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"S.O.E." (Sauron's Other Eye), with 16" Royce conical mirror: A permanent work in progress.
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jrbarnett
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: llanitedave]
      #2945391 - 02/23/09 06:39 PM

The ancestral puebloans in the 4 corners region (where Utah, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona meet) likewise used the sun as a calendaring tool.

http://www.solsticeproject.org/

Unfortunately the Sun Dagger site about 3/4 of the way up Fajada Butte is no longer accessible by the public. Still there are other notable celestial alignments discovered in Chaco Canyon including corner windows that frame a certain star or lunar or solar rising or setting point at a particular time of year. There's a corner window shown in my avatar from the Pueblo Bonito ruin, though I don't believe this particular window has any alignment data associated with it.

Calendaring becomes pretty important when you are engaged in subsistence agriculture for a large part of your diet.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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refractory
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #2993357 - 03/19/09 08:52 PM

I studied aspects of the Haisla and related Kwakiutl/Kwakwala language (more at dialects all around) about 20 years ago. Interesting because their word-root system is highly iconic, and of course they also have extensive use of nominal suffixes, which can 'harden' or 'soften' the pronunciation of previous material. In addition almost all words can be interpreted as verbs, even things that in English would be considered nouns, adjectives, etc.

I've sometimes wondered what areas of language are influenced by the structure of the life of the people (and vice versa). For instance one linguist I knew (since deceased) analyzed a mesoamerican language family and found that its iconicity was oriented around an underlying and abstract model they had of their universe, with various levels of reality.

Many languages also have extensive directional systems oriented towards cardinal points spatially, or on landforms (rivers, the coast, mountains, etc.), or even on the human body as a model. People orient their buildings and communities around these models (for instance Yahgans almost always tried to put the doors of their wigwams facing west, except temporarily when weather was coming in from that direction). But each culture does it differently (with commonalities). The larger field of 'geography' studies this stuff. (look up Yi Fu Tuan).

Peoples of course use natural cycles to time their activities and movements (especially if they are migratory).

All lots of fun stuff, and most of it dying out as everyone adopts 'modernity'.

Jess Tauber


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zjc26138
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: refractory]
      #3034954 - 04/09/09 09:13 PM

I just wrote a paper on Native Americans and astronomy. I looked at the Maya, the group Jim talked about, the Hopewell culture, and the Lakota people.

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dwang
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: Brian W]
      #3040788 - 04/13/09 12:57 AM

What was their vantage point? Perhaps a book is in order.

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zjc26138
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: dwang]
      #3041920 - 04/13/09 04:44 PM

I can email you my paper if you would like me too.

--------------------
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refractory
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: zjc26138]
      #3061986 - 04/23/09 12:30 PM

Mayans also have languages that are heavy on iconicity. In any of the different Mayan tongues are huge numbers of verbs detailing the shape of objects, their patterns of movement, sounds, etc. Different consonants and vowels associate strongly with different aspects of these (much more than the weak associations one finds in European languages). I've worked with data from about 10 of these languages. You guys should get dictionaries and grammars to really get a feel for this sort of thing.

Jess Tauber


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skypilgrim
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: Brian W]
      #3114995 - 05/19/09 03:54 PM

Brian,

I made a post on my blog last year stating something very similar:

http://fathersky.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/calendar/

Sam

--------------------
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Area of interest: Cultural Astronomy
My Blog: http://fathersky.wordpress.com/


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emersonv
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Reged: 04/01/09
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: skypilgrim]
      #3118100 - 05/21/09 02:51 AM

I have studied native cultures, esp the Confederation of the Six Nations Iroquois, whose political structure was the basis for the United Nations Assembly. The Eastern Doorkeepers are the Mohawks, the first of the six nations and my adopted family. Their New Year's Ceremony takes twelve days, during which elders tell the entire story of the people from as far back as they have knowledge. They claim they came from the stars. The legends (history) tell of Grandmother Moon watching from above, Grandfathers speaking to us with the thunder and of two brothers who fought for domination of the earth. One brother was called good and was born in the normal fashion. The other, <not-good> but not bad (a difficult concept in itself) was born from the mother Sky Woman's armpit area. She died during delivery which caused the two boys to fight. After much struggle, the good brother prevailed and won domination of the daytime. The not-good brother was defeated but received the realm of the night as his domain.
When we die, they say we go to the <fork> in the Milky Way and then have to decide which path to take, each ruled by one of the brothers.
They have stories to explain nearly all phenomena, including constellations, for example Ursa Major is also seen as a bear. I found it amazing that any two <unrelated> human groups would see a bear in those stars, in fact it took me a long time to figure it out. Once I conceived of the entire bear, including his snout and extremely long legs, it made more sense.
The bear features large in any native tradition, being our king of the jungle. My friends in the Bear Clan are responsible for medicines and treating the sick, so the bear is seen as a good force.
They also see the Pliedes as daughters, crying over one who was taken away.
This culture is vast. The Iroquois were <civilized> in that they farmed specific areas and were able to develop extensive families with generally known histories. I believe, however that nomadic or not, all people had explanations for the stars and used their positions to predict the availability of food.
It is the <uncivilized> among us who see the stars under the best conditions, away from TV, street lights and other <developed> distractions. Of course earlier societies saw the stars better than anyone and would have to answer their children's queries, not to mention their own. The only thing holding them back was the arrival of Europeans and a good supply of optical glass. Of course, with the glass came light bulbs!
Emersonv
CPC8", old Minolta 8x40 binos
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refractory
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: emersonv]
      #3119353 - 05/21/09 06:08 PM

Oh I dunno- there are no bears in Tierra del Fuego- but then they are too far south to care about Ursa Major anyway! OTOH they get the Magellanic Clouds. Who needs bears?

The Kootenay are believed to be distantly related to the Salishan tribes who dwell more to the west, but this is controversial. I know the guy who wrote the linguistic grammar of the language, and a draft dictionary. As with Yahgan, this language likes to string together instrument or body part and path/position terms in with normal verb roots. This is relatively more popular in the Americas than in most places. I'll bet it may color the way native peoples view nature.

Yahgans thought of the stars as campfires, though individual bright ones or nebulae had distinct names, often of myth characters. In Yahgan mythology there was a time before humans and animals (and also celestial bodies) were distinguished- as they played out their various roles in stories they transformed. Rainbows were considered harbingers of death.

Because of normally bad weather, it is doubtful that the average Yahgan ever had a really good view of the night sky in its entirety. Nobody builds observatories in Tierra del Fuego.

Jess Tauber


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RTLR 12
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: refractory]
      #3135635 - 05/30/09 10:33 AM

Grandfather...Hunkpapa Grandmother...Flathead I remember afew stories from my grandfather, but he left me when I was very young. Some language (mostly bad words),but I don't remember much. Mother wanted me to be accepted in the white world and passed me off as white.

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refractory
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: RTLR 12]
      #3151603 - 06/08/09 01:41 AM

I know a linguist that works on Flathead (Sally Thomason)- language is dying out as elders do. Lakota, OTOH, has many more people speaking, so it won't die out tomorrow- it is also taught in schools. I had a Lakota informant (a term these days not PC) back in graduate school. If you ever want to learn materials are relatively inexpensive. Grammatically Siouan languages are somewhat simple, but they make up for that with sometimes extreme lexical elaboration. Flathead the other way around.

Jess Tauber


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: refractory]
      #3166425 - 06/16/09 06:49 PM

It is important to have good relations with the Tribal Casinos, particularly before they put in the all too often used Las Vegas style illumination in what were relatively dark areas before the casino boom.

A related (?) problem: How to get the Baja Calif. Norte territorial prison to retrofit hoods onto their offensive light array?


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jrbarnett
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: emersonv]
      #3171636 - 06/19/09 02:02 PM

What fascinates me about Ursa Major is that while it doesn't look much like a modern bear (which have longer faces and shorter legs), it does look a lot like the ice age short-faced bear which had extremely long (for a bear) legs. The earliest humans in North America were ice age hunters. Is it possible that the bear tradition for the constellation is rooted in the experiences of those first inhabitants, and passed down by oral tradition? Similarly the widespread "Thunderbird" archetype could have origins in the oral traditions dating back to the ice age. In North America at the end of the ice age there were two varieties of enormous predatory birds - Aiolornis and Teratornis, The former was the largest (and rarest in the fossil record) being 40% larger than the latter. Teratornis had an average wingspan of 10-12 feet and a body weight of about 30 pounds. Figure 140% of that bird! That would make quite a shadow passing over.

(Of course, that wouldn't explain why Europeans recognized the constellation as a bear. There were no Arctodus Simi (short faced bears) in Europe during the ice age.)

It's also very difficult to link modern Native American nations/tribes to the first inhabitants. Like people elsewhere, they participated in many waves of migration. In the southwest, for example, where some of the earliest spears points are found (Clovis, NM), you have very culturally and chronologically distinct groups of Native Americans. The dominant groups (Utes, Navajos, Apaches, etc.) are relatively new arrivals to that region. Their culture and language links them to groups that migrated south from the Arctic circle and Canada. The ancient masonry ruins, pit houses and rock art in the region ascribed to various groups (Anasazi, Mogollon, Mimbres, Sinagua, Fremont, etc.) predates those groups by a very long time. Most anthropologists accept that the modern day puebloans like the Zuni, Acoma and Hopi, are descended from some of the more ancient groups, but the modern puebloans do not share a uniform culture or language. The Zuni in particular have a very unique language that is unconnected to other linguistic groups in the region.

I wonder which of the modern groups residing in the southwest, if any, actually descended from the ice age hunters in the region?

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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refractory
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3172596 - 06/20/09 01:28 AM

There has been recent evidence that there was a comet strike at the end of the last ice age, perhaps over the great lakes, that led to what is called the 'Younger Dryas' event. Burnt material is found at that time horizon all over North America, indicating widespread forest fires. If this actually happened when the continent was already inhabited (by the Clovis people) then they likely would either have been totally wiped out or severely reduced in numbers- their food supply would have gone up in smoke, both vegetal and animal. Later migrants from the Pacific coast and from points south would have filled the blanks in after the environment recovered- several thousand years go by before you see the same sort of population densitites again.

The Zun~i people indeed seem relatively unrelated to others in the region today, though in the past some linguists tried to relate their language to a larger family they call Penutian.

In my own studies of religious vocabulary I found that the Zun~i word for 'singing spell'- a kind of ode to the elements that makes abundance come foodwise, is nearly identical in Yahgan (Tierra del Fuego), Salishan (from the British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, Idaho area), and Zun~i, and less but still recognizably so in many other language families along the Pacific coast.

This indicates to me anyway that there was some sort of link to the west. If you look at other families inland there are similar more obvious connections.

For example, the late-arriving Athabaskans, whose primary homeland is Alaska and adjacent Canadian regions, have outliers both in the Great Basin (Navajo, Apache) and along the Pacific coast both in Oregon and California.

The Algonkian language family, which spreads all the way from Colorado to the east coast, has two sister families in California (Yurok and Wiyot).

More controversial groupings at a higher level also seem to link east-west, with the spread eastward to more recent, differentiated varieties, and older, more entrenched ones in the west.

But you see the same thing to the south- where recently expanded families are in the north and the smaller, older ones in the south.

All this indicates an extreme depopulation of the more easterly, northerly lands, later filled in by newer migrants who had little competition and thus weren't hemmed in til much later when population densities rose much higher.

Another example is the northward migration of peoples from the north coast of eastern South America up through the islands- one group whose parent family is in South America made it as far as Florida- and some of the language families of the Gulf state area may have similar recent origins in South America. And the Uto-Aztecans, once thought to have migrated south into Mexico, now appear to have actually migrated north prior to that.

All these things indicate a refill of most of North America after the environment recovered after the comet strike (which of course also links this to CN!)

The Yahgans, BTW, down in Tierra del Fuego (which they may must have migrated to from points further north- and there is plenty of evidence of earlier inhabitants they either killed off or absorbed), have a legend about a great flaming stone falling from the sky which created a gigantic upheaval and tsunami- and that they were the only survivors left when the waters receded. Who knows how old this story is?

Jess Tauber


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LesB
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #3188049 - 06/29/09 12:43 AM

Gordon Rayner raises a good point. What is the value of native American culture if it is to do no more than assimilate in such a way as to diminish the environment?

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Doug Reilly
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: LesB]
      #3226120 - 07/19/09 02:21 AM

I'm living for the month at Chaco Canyon, helping out with their Night Sky Program. The ancient Chacoans most likely also watched the moon, and next weekend at Chimney Rock north of here some of the current indigenous groups will gather to watch the full moon rise between the two hills on the top of Chimney Rock--and dance. The blog in my signature has a few essays about this experience thus far, including one about a group of Navajo that visited last week.

The pre-history of migrations that we are now filling in is really breathtaking. I'm sure we're only piecing together the simplest of understandings of what went on in all those thousands of years of human prehistory, but it's still amazing nonetheless. All that drama of migration, struggle, change. I never read anything about the migrations within the Americas or the comet event, but I should...any good books on the subject?

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I keep a blog on astronomy, astronomy outreach, and other related topics at punkastronomy.com Nerd is punk!


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ScumotheUniverse
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: Doug Reilly]
      #3253780 - 08/04/09 04:23 PM

There are some works of fiction dealing with that time period, but I have not seen any substantive scientific works. Obviously there not being an extant recorder with writing skills is an obstacle that does prove to be an impossible one.

"Parasites Like Us" blames the many mass extinctions of large land animals on the migrating Native Americans.


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ScumotheUniverse
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Re: Native North Americans new [Re: ScumotheUniverse]
      #3315387 - 09/04/09 04:47 PM

Sorry

Ocean Trails and Prairie Paths by Dennis Stanford

Bones, Boats, and Bison James E. Dixon

Mitochondrial DNA and the Peopling of the New world American Scientist 88 246-253

Another mitochondrial DNA article in Scientific American. I believe it was in the July issue of last year.

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per me caeci vident


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