John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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This is my first post but I am really not new to the forum as I have been lurking for a couple of months.
The day today in Phoenix was incredibly clear. A light wind blew all of the dust/pollution out of the valley. I was antisipating a great evening. Needless to say the seeing closed in just after I got set up. Still I wanted to try M33 for the second time. Last time I tried I could not locate a trace of it. Even with the seeing not being perfect I thought with the clear skies I had a chance. I do have moderate light pollution in my backyard but can block out the direct light. Is M33 a dark sky object? What woudl M33 look like compared to M31 in my moderatly light polluted area? I realize it is large and diffuse, but it seems to me that I should be able to see it from my backyard even with the light pollution.
I am using an 8" Skyview Pro (1000mm f4.9) and I currently don't have any filters for deep sky viewing.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I've spotted the core in my scope under 5th magish skys, but it was at the threshhold of visibility, no hint of the arms was detectable. Filters won't do much for anything except nebula and planets. Broadband filters are near useless visually, they're supposed to help photographicly though. Galaxies and star clusters emit at all wavelenghts as won't benefit from narrow bandpass of nebula filters.
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John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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Thanks for the reply Dan. I plan to try again this weekend at our deep sky party in the middle of the desert.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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M33 is a dark sky object and smaller than M31. It is about as difficult for me to see as M101 though a bit brighter.
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miniventures
Something Else
Reged: 09/13/03
Posts: 11064
Loc: Powell Butte, Central Oregon
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I've seen M33 several times--most often with my 8 X 40 binoculars. I have seen it twice with a 12.5" dob with a 55mm eyepiece and it was mostly the core of the galaxy. There were wisps of possible arms but can't say for sure. LarryC
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LarryC
Volunteer
http://www.sunrivernaturecenter.org
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10022
Loc: Chaville, France
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"M33" and "moderate light pollution" don't go together.
I also believe that it is easier to see it with binoculars than with a telescope.
My rule of thumb is: if you can't see M31 with the naked eye, you won't see M33.
Even in the 16", I have a hard time discerning the arms. It's more an ensemble of patches of light than a clear spiral pattern. It's hard to trace an arm all the way.
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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Blair
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/07/03
Posts: 1163
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I have some light pollution, 52 year old eyes, and I have seen a circular haze with 11X70mm Oberwerk binocs. Sometimes the haze is brighter. But the only reason I found it the first time is I had a detailed print out from the TheSKy program of the star pattern around it and after about 30 minutes of dark adapting and constant looking I found it. Some nights it is easy to spot, some nights no matter how hard I look I can't see it. It is more difficult to find than the Dumbell Nebula.
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michaeloconnell
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 963
Loc: Ireland
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Anyone here seen M33 with the naked eye.?
Needless to say it's a little difficult - you won't spot it as soon as u hop out the backdoor. But a good clear night in a dark site should do the trick. Will require plenty of adverted vision though.
Michael
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Michael
www.astroshot.com
Gemini G41 Observatory+ Mount, Meade 16" SCT OTA, TEC140 Apo, 16" ATM Dob, Pentax75 SDHF, PST Ha, PST Cak.
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Scott Beith
SRF
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33079
Loc: Gulfport, MS
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Michael,
Possibly, can't confirm. I once saw a slight haze (with averted vision) where it should be - but I don't know. That was also the night when M-31 was extended (naked eye - direct vision) and not just a small glow.
Scott
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  Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy
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michaeloconnell
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 963
Loc: Ireland
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Sounds like it alright. There is also a mag 5.94 nearby. If you barely glimpsed a star then this is probably what u saw. However, M33 is a large duffuse faint object and adverted vision would be able to differenciate between the two, so it sounds like you were successful.
It's worth also trying to find the sweet spot in your adverted vision - which part of the eye is more sensitive to adverted light than the rest. Personally, if I place the target at the 3 o'clock position relative to where the centre of my eye is looking, I find I can detect fainter objects. Anyone else tried this??
Michael
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Michael
www.astroshot.com
Gemini G41 Observatory+ Mount, Meade 16" SCT OTA, TEC140 Apo, 16" ATM Dob, Pentax75 SDHF, PST Ha, PST Cak.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yes,
I saw it last Nov.(naked eye) while in Missouri at a very dark rural site. The NELM at zenith was ~6.5. M33 could be seen as a faint nebulous patch. It was absolutely stunning in the 17.5". Very mottled and extended detail visible at low power (64x 35mm Pan). NGC 604 actually showed a little stucture as well at higher power (280x 8mm TV plossl), and responded well to the OIII filter. It was a sight I will not soon forget  .
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matt
Vendor (Scopemania)
Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10022
Loc: Chaville, France
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Charles, what kind of structure do you see on NGC 604? I can barely make out a 'rounded rectangle' shape, a little like the Little Dumbbell, but STRUCTURE?
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Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.
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John M
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 571
Loc: Mesa/Tucson, AZ
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Thanks for the input. I am heading out to a dark sky site this Saturday and I will try M33 again. I will report my findings next week.
It is just amazing how fast seeing conditions can change here in the Valley of the Sun. When I started to set up last night I could see more stars with the porch lights on then I normally can see with them off. But by the time I was set up and ate dinner, the conditions had changed dramatically back to normal. We have another "Blue Sky" day here again, but I suspect once the wind dies down after sunset, the conditions will return to normal again.
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John M
Mesa/Tucson, AZ
8" Sky View Pro Newt
90mm Meade 386D Refractor
60 mm Monlux Refractor
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Charles, what kind of structure do you see on NGC 604?
Matt,
It seemed clumpy and textured. Nothing real striking, but there nevertheless. When you looked at it were you using your 16"? It actually looked like a comet to me at low power initially, sort of ovalish seeming to be in front of M33. There were several other regions (HII?) that were visible as well that I thought I could see.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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At my latitude, M33 passes directly overhead. I have seen it as a small, faint fuzzy patch with 8x21 binoculars, when stars to 5.6 magnitude are visible.
I have not seen it naked eye or with telescope.
Bill
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I was out over this past weekend with 3 binoculars. Fuj16x70, Fuj10x70 and Pentax16x60. Saw M33 in all three, but just barely. NELM varied between 4.7 and 5.1 throughtout the night. I've seen it better in my Orion 10x50s, but on a night when NELM was maybe 5.6-5.8.
It was definitely an averted vision object. And yes there is a sweet spot for averted vision. I always know it when I'm out there, but don't remember right now where the orientation of my sweet spot is.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Mine is usually when looking toward my nose rather than looking outward.
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 5434
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has trouble finding this (M33). That's part of what has motivated me to get a GOTO mount...guess it won't help much with M33, huh? I've also been looking for M51 FOREVER, and can't catch even a hint of it... 
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Echo
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/29/03
Posts: 3320
Loc: So Cal
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What magnification are you using? I can see M51 quite well from here in town.
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Queen of GOTO
Life is short.... get a massage!
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Charlie Fisher
member
Reged: 06/28/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tampa, FL USA
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John M, et al,
I saw M33 for the first time this Friday and Saturday at a pretty dark site in West Central Florida on the Gulf of Mexico (Cedar Key). I principally used Fuji 16X70 FMT-SX bins, hand held, flat on my back. I had tried for M33 probably 15 times from my very light polluted urban backyard in Tampa and never saw it until at this dark location. I found it in about 15 seconds, which I estimate was 1/4500 of the total time I had expended trying to find this object cumulatively from my bright backyard.
From a dark location it popped out immediately. Not exactly sure what the NELM was, but the winter Milky Way was easily visible from Orion all the way through Cassiopeia. M31 was naked eye of course, and the Double Cluster was naked eye visible as a bright knot in the Milky Way between Perseus and Cass. So many stars were visible in the bins that the view of the Double Cluster was unnervingly different from the view in my backyard... I had a binocular double take, and had to look again to make sure I was actually seeing this familiar object. The two were imbedded in a sea of stars, versus fairly alone in my previous LP'd viewing experience.
M81/82 was a snap handheld with the Fujis those nights. They are usually a struggle poring through a bright background and with few naked eye reference stars nearby (at least in my bright backyard, there is nothing visible nearby). The Auriga open clusters, which can also be difficult from my backyard, I also found easily and showed to my wife (not an astro type at all), who also found all three of them right away: boom, boom boom, M36,37,38. M1 was also located with no fuss, among many others.
I also had an 80mm Pentax ED spotter with me... don't get me started on what M42 looked like from there with a tripod mounted 80mm scope versus my 8in Dob in LP. I only wished I had dragged the Dob with me.
So dark skies matter. Certainly for M33 and for many other DSOs as well. I'm a convert.
Charlie
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