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Luigi
Postmaster
Reged: 07/03/07
Loc: MA
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: jim_m]
#3012036 - 03/29/09 02:58 PM
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>>>When you go on vacation to Washington D.C.,why do you take pictures of The White House,Washington Monument, etc.?<<<
Not to have a picture of the monument or to show my mastery of photography, but as a memento of having been there. I've taken pictures of earthly astronomical sites, like the top of Mauna Kea for example, because I've been there. I have yet to visit any extraterestial locales. IMO, the only reason to take a photo of an astronomical object is to prove to yourself or others that you can do it...but that's just me. IMO, YMMV, etc.. 
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bebert
sage
Reged: 07/21/08
Loc: Louisiana
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Luigi]
#3016351 - 03/31/09 04:37 PM
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I've skimmed through this very interesting thread and I believe that I detected one important omission regarding automation which is that automation is a boon to the amateur because it provides us with an acceptable degree of precision, consistency and the ability to replicate our efforts night after night. This is important to a guy like me who only has a few hours each week to devote to collecting photons. Those of us with small children also appreciate one additional value of automation - maximizing our time.
When I started this 15 years ago I began with manual guiding which for many reasons can hardly be considered consistent or precise. Being human, my diligence, attention span, disposition, etc. changes daily. Some nights it was a real chore to get through just a few hours of imaging, on others the time flew by. The conditions in which we work also change. Some really cold nights made it almost impossible to keep focused and manually guide. Actually it's worse in the summer when you've got mosquitoes taking pints of blood. Obviously my images reflected all of these variations.
Now, with automation these problems virtually disappear. I can go out spend a couple of hours setting up and getting ready then let the autopilot take over for the remainder of the night. If I do my job correctly and the equipment behaves I get reasonably precise and consistent results every time. Much more so than I could ever achieve without automation.
Also, an important point is that automation has opened this hobby up to many more people than would otherwise be willing to invest the time and effort that was required just a few years ago.
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bdjeep
sage
Reged: 01/29/07
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: bebert]
#3017711 - 04/01/09 11:08 AM
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If you are looking for a philosophical view point:
What makes us all amateur astronomers is that we point a device skyward (including the unaided eye) and record photons. We record these images either in our minds, on paper, on film, or as digital bits. Various aspects of this process appeal to people in different ways. The guy with the fully automated imaging rig is no less an astronomer than the guy star-hopping to faint NGC galaxies with a 20" dob. Both activities require specialized skills which can be enjoyable to acquire and refine over the years. This is only a hobby, and we are free to pursue it as we chose. We should always keep in mind that the technologically advanced imager can learn an awful lot from the guy with the 20" dob across the field and vice versa. There is no need for one to belittle the other for choosing a different method of collecting photons.
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Michael Miles
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/11/05
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: bdjeep]
#3018601 - 04/01/09 05:51 PM
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OK, I've agreed with a lot of the sentiments here. However, I've got one more that I haven't seen. It goes like this:
1) When I walk outside at night, it looks like the only things in the sky are stars, clouds, and the moon.
2) It looks like they are circling overhead.
3) The sun looks like it circles overhead too
4) Except for the hills, the earth looks flat
5) Some folks have told stories over the past few hundred years that are different from what I've observed casually.
6) I'm not sure I believe them, but I can look myself
7) Sure enough, most of what they say seems to be much more reliable than the promises of bankers and politicians
8) In fact, if I want to, I can verify things up to everything someone knew about astronomy up to the last 50-75 years ago (and most things since then), and that's a lot.
Astrophotography:
I grew up working class. I didn't have a telescope until I was out of highschool and could afford my own - which I built myself. We didn't have a color TV until I was in college. So, I associate black-and-white with CHEAP. I've always loved color over B&W - much prettier. So, I do astrophotography because I like the pretty colors. Also, I can see much more of what's there than I can with my naked eye.
When I look at M31 with my telescope directly, it's a blurry smudge. When I look at an astrophoto of it that I took, it's a galaxy! When I look at a star field with the telescope directly, I may not even see the wonderful things that pop out when I take an astrophoto.
I know, silly reasons, but they are how I get some of my enjoyment from the hobby.
Michael
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Lane
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/19/07
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Michael Miles]
#3018658 - 04/01/09 06:29 PM
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I just wish our club had two separate dark sites, one for the people wanting to do astrophography and one for the rest of us. Things are so much more relaxed and enjoyable when I go to the site and find only visual observers up there.
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Lane]
#3018704 - 04/01/09 06:52 PM
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Wow Lane - why is that?
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Lane
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/19/07
Loc: Frisco, Texas
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Charlie Hein]
#3018875 - 04/01/09 08:16 PM
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Well Charlie, I could write a book on all the things I have seen astrophographers do at our dark site. Probably the best though was a 10 minute barrage of foul language that would make a sailor blush on family night with little kids and first time visitors at the site all because a visitor that didn't know any better accidentally turned on a light that ruined some photos. You would think the fact that we call it family night and invite newbies would give people a clue as to how they need to act, but no such luck. But when there aren't any wonderful examples like this happening, in general I find them to just be grumpy. They always have a problem with their mount or their scope or their camera or their computer or who knows what else, the main thing is that I DON'T CARE about their stupid problems because I am trying to enjoy my trip to the dark site.
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CounterWeight
Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/08
Loc: Cloudyopolis, OR.
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Lane]
#3019049 - 04/01/09 09:52 PM
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Wow that is a terrible example of an AP'er. Ummm gawd hope I wasn't in Texas at the time? I've heard similar stories - has anyone here not? AP'er's the unfriendly ones at star parties... I am glad no one walks their kids by my backyard after 10PM - my oh my there have been times when I, 'a former sailor', felt the need to cut loose from the library of verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs classed as vulgar, foul, profanity - carefully stored and reserved for certain situations that seem to arise only in my AP work. Heck I have surprised myself at times! For that very reason I only do visual in public.
But point of OP wasns't to bash for that reason.
Technology has not just intruded on this field - it is terracing and cultivating it. And not surprisingly every single thing in our hobby or avocation has had a benefit and can be made better, more, and less expensive. Lenses, mirrors, tubes, motors, cells, cradles, gears, cogs, connectors, plates, rings, metals, compounds, alloys, glasses.... even books and planispheres....
Edited by CounterWeight (04/01/09 09:58 PM)
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John Carruthers
Skiprat
Reged: 02/02/07
Loc: Kent, UK
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Luigi]
#3019415 - 04/02/09 03:56 AM
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I want those authetic photons that orginated their travels from the object being observed to anihiliate on my retina. This requires being present and awake, neither of which are necessary for AP. I'll look other peoples photos.
Are the two conditions mutually exclusive? I do both, set up the imaging equipment then drag out the Dob or bins. I find I'm doing more visual now while waiting for a sequence than I've ever done before. For me it's about fun, for others it's a competitive thing, each to his own.
jc
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alanon
Nobody tells me anything
Reged: 06/29/07
Loc: Las Vegas
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: John Carruthers]
#3019426 - 04/02/09 04:16 AM Attachment (28 downloads)
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: CounterWeight]
#3020013 - 04/02/09 01:05 PM
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Wow that is a terrible example of an AP'er.
I think it is a terrible example of behavior in general at these sort of events. I've seen not-so-relaxed behavior when just observing as well. And I haven't even run into the guy who has been having collimation issues all night and trying to tweak it yet.
If a guy is letting themselves be wound up over something, then that is a possible problem in the making. It doesn't really matter what it is.
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ALCHEMIST1
member
Reged: 05/18/06
Loc: Home of the Aggies
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: Lane]
#3020196 - 04/02/09 02:48 PM
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Why do I do astrophotography? Simple, I really, really like to. Why do I spend time with a star chart and hop to those NGC objects and visually look at them through the eyepiece? Again simple, but I really, really like it. And I like to do both in the company of my friends and colleagues at the local astronomy club. Oh, you're looking for philosophy? As a Doctor of Philosophy, my philosophy is that there is room for all philosophies in our hobby.
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ALCHEMIST1
member
Reged: 05/18/06
Loc: Home of the Aggies
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Re: Technical question and philosophical question
[Re: chrisnardone]
#3020214 - 04/02/09 02:58 PM
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Philosophically, at what point does one move from a person taking amazing photos to a person that knows how to operate some fancy astro equipment? 
It may be never or it may be when you think you've reached that point. From my own personal experience climbing up the astrophotography learning hill I personally believe that the hill does not have a summit. Even if I ever got to the point that I had my own remote observatory, I'm still a person taking photos of DSOs and not just someone who can operate a fancy remote observatory. The reason is that even at that point there will always be more to learn and even more to add to my skill set.
In a sense both aspects of the hobby - purely visual pursuits and purely photographic pursuits can take you as far as you would like to progress. It is up to you entirely to determine at what point you want to stop.
Anjal.
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