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dgs©Moderator
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Darts]
      #344672 - 02/15/05 06:42 PM

M31 doesn't show me any detail from home, where my sky is ~4.5 magnitude. I haven't had a chance to try it in really dark sky yet. I've heard some more experienced say that dust lanes can be seen in an 8"Ø from a really dark site.
I've also heard (and this is a huge generalization) that 12"Ø is about where detail in galaxies becomes easy to pick out. In other words, I gather that galaxy detail takes some effort and no small amount of training/experience in less than a 12"Ø.
I haven't tried M33 yet. Not sure how I've missed that one so far.

If you live 'real close to Detroit', your light pollution is probably worse than mine. A good light pollution filter may do you some good.

Hopefully, they will reschedule a demo night. Seems like an excellent sales tool.

Keep in mind, planets like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn aren't affected by light pollution. The moon or sun either for that matter, and all those will look great in anything over a few inches.

In case you aren't aware, the resolving power of a scope is mathematically tied to its aperture... bigger aperture = greater resolution (finer detail visible). Keep that in mind as well.

Also, the idea of looking longer doesn't just refer to more years. If you look at Saturn for 20 minutes without taking your eye from the eyepiece, you will see more detail than if you just look at it for a minute and then move on to other targets. Seeing (atmospheric interference) varies continuously... sometimes the air column you are looking through gets very still and the view is crystal clear. Trouble is, these occurances are usually short lived and spaced out in time. On a good night you might get 10 to 15 seconds out of a minute, with the longest stretch being only 3 seconds. The actual number of seconds isn't important, but having your eye to the eyepiece the whole time so you don't miss those great seconds is important.

You should probably start a new thread (still here in the Beginners section) with other questions. This thread is getting long in the tooth, and a fresh question in the subject line will likely attract more contributors.

--------------------
- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm



"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike


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Demorcan
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Darts]
      #346485 - 02/17/05 01:20 AM

Thank you for your comments. I am glad the post was of some use to you.

In reply, first of all, you will see something the first time you look. Especially when you start with brighter objects. Saturn always seems to be impressive the first time one sees it. Looking at it over time, you will see more detail. But the first look is still impressive. Jupiter and its moons are also easy. Moon shadows on Jupiter are also easy. Saturns rings and Jupiter and its moons should be visible in any scope worth owning. I was out this week and let someone see Saturn for the first time with a 5" scope and they saw the rings and difference in color between the inner and outer rings. Depending on the scope and viewing, all of the planets and Messier objects can be seen by an inexperienced viewer. Some maybe less impressive with smaller scopes and your inexperience. But even these, know how ot find them and having seen them once will be a big help when you back to look at them sometime later on.

Anytime you have a chance to view through a more experienced users scope do it. Most experienced users will have one of the show pieces (or more) to show newcomers. You will see something new and usually learn something. If you discuss what you see, then can sometimes suggest things to look for to see more detail. The people who set up scopes at public viewings enjoy showing the views and answering questions.

The moon is also a good way to start out. It is different every night of the month. Not only will you see different details on the terminus each day, you will also be getting familiar with your new scope. The moon is bright and does not require night vision. That means you can easily see your scopes adjustments as you view. The experience you gain in using your scope will help later. When you view dsos later on, you can concentrate on viewing instead of trying to figure out how to use the scope. The moon also lets you try almost any eyepiece combination you have. There is no better way to understand the field of view and magnifcation of different eyepieces than by using them. You will also see how higher power lowers brightness. And, you will notice on different nights you can use higher power than on other nights. This will help you understand seeing. If you have a barlow and smaller eyepieces, you should be able to reach a point where more magnification does not show any more details or may even break down. All of this will help you when you are trying to see dos. You will know which eyepiece to start with if you need a brighter view to see more. The same for when you need more power, etc. You will also learn how to track at higher power with your scope. This will be a big help when you are viewing a dim object that may not be visible to the naked eye. If you lose the dimmer dso from the view, you will know how to get it back in view quickly.

A suggestion here is to also look at the edge of the moon. You will see how the sky brightness varies with different eyepieces or scope size. You may also find a combination that gives more or less contrast.

There is much to be learned to aid in seeing more. Anything you can learn now will help later. You do not need ideal conditions. The more time you spend with your scope, the more natural its operation will be. This will save time later on, giving you more viewing experience.

Sheryl, your starhopper should show more than the 70mm. If their is light pollution, the sky may be darker in the 70mm giving open clusters, etc a more pleasant look. The 8" may need collimation. It will also take longer to cool when that is a factor. Looking through both at the same object is a good way to gain experience. I still like taking out my 90mm and 8" together.

Finally, I want to point out something sometimes overlooked here. Astronomy is not a competitive sport. You do not have to see what someone else does. Nor do you have to have the same size or cost scope they do. The main thing is to enjoy yourself. I still enjoy a night with the binoculars under a dark sky. It does not matter than someone with a scope sees more (or less). Have fun. You do not have to see more to enjoy this hobby. It should be fun from the first say on. You do not have to wait until see more. Enjoy the things you can see now. They are new to you. One day if you see more detail, that will also be new to you. I cannot repeat enough. This hobby in not a competition. There is no reason to compare yourself with someone else. Well over 90% of the people in world have never seen anything through a scope. Use it one time to see the moon, and you are in a select group. Savor that. Take your time and do not miss anything at the early stage of your telescope viewing. You will never have a 2nd first view of Saturn, Jupiter, the Moon, or any dso. Cherish those first views. Perhaps even take a moment to realize what you are accomplishing and viewing. This hobby is nor a race. It is never over and you will never see every viewable dso and comet. If you are waiting for the day when you have accomplished everything and mastered it all, then you are in the wrong hobby. Everyone here started just like you. The things they saw as they started the hobby kept their interest and drew them into observing again and again. Follow their path and find pleasure in what you can see today. Anything else is a path to fustration. There will always be someone with a bigger scope who can see some detail or dim object you cannot. If this is going to take the joy from your observing, then perhaps you need to find a different hobby. However, I would hope that you like many of us here enjoy the time spent under the night sky getting to know it better and seeing more of what it has to offer.

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my opinions.

--------------------
Wayne

80 mm refractor to 8" newt


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Demorcan
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Darts]
      #346507 - 02/17/05 01:41 AM

Quote:

I understand I need patience, you all have stressed that home to me. But I have to admit, that this article leaves me with reservations about what scope to buy now. Some say they see stuff with an SCT 5" and other see stuff with a 10" dob. Some stuff costs thousands, and other stuff costs 500 or so. Is this article saying I can get away with 500 bucks of equipment and the same amount of training as someone with 5000 worth of equipment? Is this article also saying that this hobby isn't something I can spontaniously impress friends and family with the occasional view because they haven't been trained in "seeing"?




There are show piece objects which most anyone can see. However do not asking blind aunt to look through your scope and be impressed. It is somewhat important to be selective about what you show them. Most of the time when you show someone not in the boddy, they will not be impressed with a dim fuzzy. Occasionally, I have seen someone at a public viewing who was more interested in showing the limits of their scope than in creating a memorable experience for the viewer. Sometimes this occurs with a newer telescope owner who wants to show the newest object they found. The solar system objects are usually good for any viewer. Pleiades, Orion Nebula, the Beehive Cluster, etc are also good views for showing the public (friends, neighbors, etc).

BTW, I saw nothing at all disrespectful in your post. It was a good question about some of your concerns. That is one of the things CN is here for.

As to the price of the scope. There are $10,000 setup that will not see the dsos as well as some of the inexpensive dobs. In general if you buy a decent scope, size means more than cost as far as what you can see. To use your comparison, a 10 dob will show more than a 5" SCT. However, you may see more with a 5" SCT. The 5" SCT is easier to transport and store than the 10" dob. If that means you spend more time using it, then you will see more with it. An often repeated truism is " the scope you use the most is the one you will see the most with." A 70mm refractor being used under the sky shows you more than a 30" dob setting in a garage.

--------------------
Wayne

80 mm refractor to 8" newt


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Darts
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Posts: 60
Loc: Redford, Mich
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #347396 - 02/17/05 08:00 PM

Wayne, thank you for your input and words of encouragement. I've been doing more research and have more questions before I make the plunge, but I'll take it to the main beginners forum so I don't clutter this one up. However I will say that I agree with your advice about getting a scope I'll use the most, and after some reading, a realization that I live in a poor seeing area (5 mag if I'm lucky)I may not want a big Dob and might opt for a 6" C6R or C6R-GT refractor since most of my viewing would be done in the backyard. This scope seems to be pretty good as well if I choose to lug it out to darker skys. Thanks again.... now its back to the books (web) for me

--------------------
Orion 8" Newt 1000mm FL, F/4.9 FR on Altas EQ-G Upgrade Mount,
7 X 35 Cheapy Binos
20X90 Oberwerk w/UA P-mount on Surveyor Tripod
Coronado PST <---Latest edition/obsession


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sixela
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Darts]
      #347404 - 02/17/05 08:04 PM

Quote:

I live in a poor seeing area (5 mag if I'm lucky)




That's poor transparency, not poor seeing.

--------------------

400mm f/4.46 David Lukehurst truss Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)


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Star Hunter
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Posts: 56
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: sixela]
      #347533 - 02/17/05 09:56 PM

How much benefit can be gained from upgrading a diagonal to one such as Tele Vue's Everbrite diagonal? Is it worth the $$?

--------------------
Rick
C9.25 on CG5GT w/ Stellarvue F60 Finder
Orion SVP 127mm Mak-Cass
90mm Bushnell Doorstop


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erik
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Star Hunter]
      #347539 - 02/17/05 10:00 PM

what are you using now? an inexpensive way to see if your diagonal is robbing light is to install a 2" extension tube so that an ep will reach focus without a diagonal. then you can compare views directly. even if your current diagonal has standard 89% reflectivity, it's questionable whether you could see a difference in brightness. but some of the better diagonals do have nice features, like compression rings instead of a setscrew...

--------------------
-Erik Wilcox
Homebuilt 16" Truss Dob
SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson pipemount
Orion 10x50 binos
Homebuilt 80mm f/5 refractor
Mirador 60mm f/12 1960's refractor



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Star Hunter
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Posts: 56
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: erik]
      #347545 - 02/17/05 10:02 PM

Currently using the stock diagonal that came with my Orion.

--------------------
Rick
C9.25 on CG5GT w/ Stellarvue F60 Finder
Orion SVP 127mm Mak-Cass
90mm Bushnell Doorstop


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scopefreak
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Star Hunter]
      #367745 - 03/08/05 10:41 AM

Great article. I was just talking about this over the weekend at the East Coast Star Party in NC. I wish I had had a copy of this in hand to win my argument. Really great stuff!!!!

Kevin V.

--------------------
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will know peace"

Astronomical League Member at Large
Member Norfolk Astronomical Society
Member Grand Rapids Amature Astronomical Association

Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Atlas w/SkyScan
ST80,The Cube w/GPS
Celestron 15X70
Canon 10D
A few REALLY good EP's
A few not so good
Dew Shields and Dew Heaters, Electric Focusers
Red Flash Lights, Every Star Atlas EVER Made,
Every Astronomy Related Text Ever Written,


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Albie
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #378526 - 03/18/05 02:17 PM

Great article.I am a newbie and am experiencing first hand what you are talking about.At first I had a difficult time seeing the Cassini division(if at all).Now using the same scope and ep I can clearly see it and I am seeing more planet detail.The same goes for the moon(craters inside of craters that are inside of craters)and Jupiter.I like to compare the eye training process to ear training.Being a bit of an audiophile I know that the more time spent listening always reveals more depth and detail as time goes on(dependant on equipment quality).Your ears need to train and the same goes for your eyes when it comes to viewing.Like myself alot of newbies get discouraged by their first views,they have high expectations.Patience and a bit of eye training will be rewarding.Again, great article!

--------------------
Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 Dob with Moonlight CR1
Televue 2x barlow and 5T6,7T6,9T6,16T5 and 26T5 Televue Naglers.
SkyMaster 15x70,Regal LX 8x42 and Noble 10x28


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Albie
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Albie]
      #413532 - 04/21/05 03:37 AM

Quote:

Like myself alot of newbies get discouraged by their first views,they have high expectations.


I would like to add that I expected to see big big views of the planets and colour not black and white.But even with my unrealistic expectations there was and still is alot of "wow" going on.The more I use a scope the more I want to see,especially after seeing gas clouds(Orion).

--------------------
Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 Dob with Moonlight CR1
Televue 2x barlow and 5T6,7T6,9T6,16T5 and 26T5 Televue Naglers.
SkyMaster 15x70,Regal LX 8x42 and Noble 10x28


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RandyR
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Albie]
      #413942 - 04/21/05 01:09 PM

The colors seen through a scope are subtle at best. With experience you'll see more and more. Just keep looking.

--------------------
"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"

RandyR / NQ0R
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch





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Albert
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Loc: Redwood City, CA
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #521773 - 07/18/05 08:23 PM

I just noticed this thread. I thought I'd add a list of observing tips I put together some time ago.

1) Allow your eyes to adjust to the dark
The obvious – don’t look at bright lights. Shield other lights. Wear sunglasses during the day and minimize the time spent in bright illumination.

2) Maintain your dark-adaptation
Keep illumination as low as possible when consulting charts

3) Refrain from drinking alcohol

4) Get plenty of sleep
Fat chance!

5) Relax
You see less when your muscles are tensed. Sit down at the scope and find a comfortable position. Keep both eyes open - don't squint to hold one eye closed. Use an eyepatch to keep light from entering the "other" eye.

6) Use averted vision
Lots of articles have been written on this topic. It is an acquired skill.

7) Increase the magnification
Many people believe they should observe faint, extended objects at low power, i.e. use an exit pupil that matches the size of your fully-dilated pupil. For adults, this is usually between 5-7mm. Although an object is brighter at lower magnification, it isn't necessarily easiest to see. CONTRAST is more important than absolute brightness. You need to increase the signal-to-noise at the expense of losing some signal intensity. At increasingly higher magnifications, the brightness of the sky background decreases faster than brightness of the object - increasing contrast. I find I see more detail in galaxies using an exit pupil around 1.5mm. With exit pupils smaller than this, the brightness of the object falls below some critical threshold. Exit pupil of your telescope = aperture/magnification

8) Block out extraneous light
Use a black hood to cover your head and drape it over the eyepiece so no other light enters your eye. Sometimes this traps moisture that can fog up the eyepiece. Alternative, use your hands to block extraneous light.

9) Place bright stars and other objects outside the f.o.v.

10) Use remote ocular technique
Especially with wide-field eyepieces, your eye is receiving distracting light from the entire field of view. Back your eye away from the eyepiece so that you see a smaller field. At the same time, position the object within your averted vision "sweet spot".

11) Know where to look
Printed finder charts and computer planetarium programs are often useful. A photographic image of the object and surrounding field is the best.

12) Keep your averted vision "sweet-spot" trained on the same position.
For scopes that don't track, this means learning to move your eye at the same rate as the field moves. It helps to have a faint star or two nearby. This is a difficult skill to learn. Alternatively, use a scope with tracking so you can keep your eye at the same location.

13) Take your time.
Wait for your eye-brain to integrate over some time.

14) Breathe through your nose.
This minimizes warm, moist air condensing on a cold eyepiece.

15) Describe or draw what you see.

16) Return to the same area on another night.

17) Observe when objects are highest in the sky.

18) When looking for small objects at high magnification, wait for periods of best seeing.

Albert


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Demorcan
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Albert]
      #521859 - 07/18/05 09:40 PM

I might disagree with #5. It is easier just to learn to keep both eyes open and alternate which one one you use with the eyepiece. This keep your eyes from getting tired and makes a long nights viewing easier. But there are enough other things to learn at the start of ones viewing life.

--------------------
Wayne

80 mm refractor to 8" newt


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Anonymous
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #528913 - 07/23/05 03:48 PM

Wayne posted a thread of great value to all. I can only supplement what he wrote with some vignettes from my observing experience.

Few of us come into contact with a truly dark sky unless we seek out a remote area. Concurrently, many people are so attuned to having some form of ambient light continuously available that they find themselves actually uncomfortably apprehensive when they do unexpectedly find themselves in the dark. Think of the ubiquitous streetlights, the proliferation of cell phone tower lights, porch lights, city glow, a myriad of LCD digital displays and the like.

Years ago, I used to conduct recreations of ghost shows and 19th century séances for entertainment around Halloween. Part of the preparation included making the effort to insure the room was impenetrable to ambient light by testing it in broad daylight and plugging remaining light leaks. Needless to say, the unwitting spectators were readily stunned when, by prearranged cue, a lone candle would go out in the séance chamber and they would instantly be plunged into total, abject darkness. Suddenly deprived of their primary sense of sight, their imaginations ran wild, intensifying whatever effects were manifested in the show, based on their memory banks of the familiar, filtered by their fears.

Back in August of 1995, I stayed at Paradise Lodge on Mt. Rainier. I awoke early to catch some Perseid meteors under an uncommonly pristine sky. In the wee hours, the only manmade sounds I heard were a jet flying over and a worker’s footsteps (walking across the parking lot). It impressed me how, under sensory deprivation, the human mind seeks to project meaning into what isn’t there. And patterns: Seeking identification and order to enable categorizing into one’s world view. Also, coming face to face with a largeness as vast and as overwhelming as an exceptionally dark sky stops me from adhering to purposes and activities of outer value. So, it takes mental and emotional preparation as well as visual practice to appreciate and feel at ease with a truly dark environment.

Every year I travel to a remote area in West Virginia, deep in the National Forest, for a week of viewing under truly dark skies. Until I started doing this, I had forgotten that certain deep sky objects like the Hercules Globular Cluster (M13), the Beehive (M44) and the Lagoon Nebula (M8) were easy naked eye targets, given a dark, clear sky. Each succeeding year, I am able to recover more detail of the majesty I remember from the dark sky of my youth. The ethereal Veil Nebula remained elusive to me until I observed it under the dark WV skies with the help of a UHC or OIII filter. Careful studying of its intricacy means that I know what to look for when seeking it out. Now, I can often resolve it under my suburban skies when Cygnus lies overhead. Multiply that by other observations.

Even certain daytime training can be of great value for you to develop your level of awareness for the subtle. When walking through a shady area during a sunny day do you take the time to look on the ground for a menagerie of white circlets of light? These manifestations of the solar disc created through the pinhole effect among the leaves in the trees are often in plain view, if only we make the effort to look for them.

Do you pay attention to atmospheric phenomena like sun dogs (parahelia), halos, solar pillars and circumzenith arcs? I marvel that, when pointing these out to people, I find they had been completely oblivious to these effects. When you fly on an airplane do you look out the window in search of the subtle? I often see the iridescent glory, with the plane’s shadow superimposed across it. Once (ca. 1997), a reader wrote out an excellent description of the glory (a doughnut shaped rainbow) and asked Marilyn vos Savant about it. The described effect apparently escaped her radar. Marilyn, in her column, called it, “An Angel Kiss.” Nonplussed, I wrote Marilyn about the glory and included references. Her office acknowledged receipt of my message, thanking me for the level of detail I provided. In vain, I searched for update in Marilyn’s future columns. Take heart, many people can afford to broaden their awareness of the subtle, even those we deem “informed.”

The above serves as a way to open your senses, hone your observational skills and deepen your appreciation of the phenomena about you.

Happy viewing!

Stardazer


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Seeing More new [Re: ]
      #529472 - 07/24/05 01:58 AM

Well, for the past few weeks there has been nothing but clouds, mostly during the day and ALWAYS during the night. I saw something, regardless of the lousy clouds, that I have never seen before and something that made the clouds at least for a while ok.

Clouds were rolling in from about 3 p.m. on as usual. and at 4 were pretty heavy. I headed home early and almost left the road as I looked where the sun would normally be, obscured by clouds. It was a brillian neon pinkish/red sphere, perfectly observable at a comfortably level, hidden by the clouds. It was a truly amazing site.

For the next 30 minutes or so, the sun would be partially or wholly obscured, only to reappear in its neon glory. It didn't quite make up for the fact that I have nothing to view at night any more, but it was an amazing site. I can't believe I haven't seen this type of phenomenon before, but I haven't. I only wish I'd had a camera during my drive home so I could have captured it. by the time I got home, the clouds fully hid the sun and no more of the site was to be seen.


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Joad
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #642803 - 10/14/05 06:15 PM

This is so good a post-article that I will simply add to it a small observation rather than start a thread of my own.

Having reached the stage of "advanced beginner," I am finally learning to appreciate something that it is hard to grasp when one is starting out. This is what is called "seeing." I always assumed that if the sky was clear and the wind was calm that that meant good seeing. But just last night, after I cooled down and collimated my SCT on a bright clear night in the mountains, I began the evening with some of the best lunar viewing that I've ever had. Saw one craterlet in Plato steadily and another winking on and off, and that's great for me. I took a break and came out later. This time the seeing was quite different. It was still clear and calm, but perhaps something was going on in the upper atmosphere because my lunar views were not nearly as good and were not as steady, even though the moon was nearer zenith (and, yes, I had the lens caps off!). I realize that I needn't contemplate throwing out my scope on clear nights of mediocre seeing, that it is the seeing conditions that have changed, not my scope. Just something else we learn along the way.


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Gendo
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Joad]
      #749174 - 12/28/05 01:51 AM

Yes seeing is a big factor. I agree that even when it seems like seeing should be excellent, it's often not, but that doesn't stop me from viewing anyways.

I compared bad seeing to looking through water just under the boiling point. That's what it reminds me of anyways, and the cause is the same (convection).

Wayne points some great things out in his article. It's well done and a must read for all the newbies!!!


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debbie_5571
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Re: Seeing More new [Re: Anonymous]
      #806209 - 02/02/06 08:33 AM

thanks wayne for sharing that information

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Dan in San Diego
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Reged: 02/06/06
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Loc: San Diego, CA, USA
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #814276 - 02/07/06 06:16 PM

Quote:

If you stay out until you can see well at night, the next time the brain remembers the first time, and switches quicker. Only slightly quicker the first time. But after a time, your night vision will come sooner.




Fascinating, but this brought up for me the same question as Bill in Flagstaff. Is there evidence to support actual faster chemical dark adaptation? I did a quick literature search, and suprisingly (to me), there does look to a fair body of evidence to support this. I didn't find any articles which answer the question directly, but they do seem to say that in many species, photoreceptor kinetics change with prolonged dark adaptation. This brings up for me questions like how living in San Diego with all of its light pollution affects the process. Or the fact that I never seem to have enough time to sleep, so don't spend as much time in the dark as many people :-) On a broader level, could this apply evolutionarily? Will light pollution teach our bodies, more and more, that dark adaptation isn't very useful and we might as well do away with it? Maybe millenia from now limiting visual magnitude will be 3 in perfectly dark skies. Can I use this as an argument to shoot out the streetlight next to my house?

Anyway, I enjoyed the post, and the point is well taken -- I should spend more time under the stars. Now I just need to consider how to get my wife to accept how important this is. . .

--------------------
Equipment: Eyes, Bent glasses, but without tape, Celestron 10x50s

Edited by Dan in San Diego (02/07/06 07:33 PM)


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