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Demorcan
professor emeritus
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Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
Seeing More
      #301592 - 01/05/05 11:56 PM

I am posting this in response to many questions I see on the various forums. These questions are from people noew to amatuer astronomy. They are in the form of which XXX will let me see the most. Or in the form of if I sell my xx inch and get a yy inch will I see more.

The best way to see more is to VIEW!! Experience is the greatest aid to seeing more. I have stood beside someone viewing Jupiter. The first night they saw 4 moons. After a week, they saw a couple dark bands on a whiter orb. After a few months, they were seeing festoons. All of this was with the same scope and eyepiece. I have seen the same happen observing details in galaxies or nebula or in observing globular clusters. About the only subjects where I have not seen experience improve views is open clusters.

Now some of you are going to want to know why this is so. And perhaps to find if there is a way to speed the process. There are mutliple things that happen with experience. First is "training" your eyes. In actuality, you are training your brain to see under conditions unfamiliar to you. An example is looking at the moon. The first time you look, you will see circles on a smooth surface and perhaps some lines. It is impressive the first time. As you look, your brain developes a pattern of this image. The next time you look at the same part of the moon, your brain will go to this image it has stored. There will not be that unconscious reaction, "what the heck is this?" The brain will recognize the image. So this time it will not be saving and cataloging. This will enable you to see more detail. Perhaps you will notice the edges of those round things have rough edges which are different on each one. As this continues, it will reach a place where you can see more craterlets in the craters (especially Plato). And more detail.

There are too side effects of this "training" your eyes (really your brain. One is that as you become able to see the festoons, etc on Jupiter, you will see them almost every time you observe - even when they are not visible. The brain knows what to expect and so it sees it. This characteristic of the brain has been studied often. The studies are one reason many police departments discount most of an eye witness account. The other side effect of this is attemping to answer the "what can I see" questions. It depends on your experience.

So far I have dealt with a bright object, the moon. And mentioned Jupiter. It is also the reason you can view Saturn for awhile and then suddenly see the Ccassini division for the first time - or the planet detail, etc.

There is another part of viewing. This is viewing the DSOs. The effect above is still active. But here there is more at work. Your eye consists of 2 kinds of detectors in it. One of these is the what detects color in the daytime. The other is what detects dim objects at night. Actually these both work all of the time. It is the ratio that the brain combines them in that changes. The rods are what detects low light levels and movement. The rods are very sensitive to light. However, cones are predominate in daytime seeing. The brain in most people is trained to utilize the cones primarily. Besides the training mentioned above, the brain also controls chemicals in the body (unconsciously). The rods require a chemical to see low light levels. When you go to view at night, the brain slowly switches to utilize the rod recptors over the cone ones. This takes an amount of time. This is "night vision" or dark adaption". The first time you go out to use a telescope at night, this will take quite awhile. The brain knows this is temporary and you will soon be in light. So it is slow to utilize the rods.

If you stay out until you can see well at night, the next time the brain remembers the first time, and switches quicker. Only slightly quicker the first time. But after a time, your night vision will come sooner.

I mentioned above a chemical the rods need to operate at their greatest efficently. The brain is not used to sending this chemical to the rods when you start out in astronomy. As you spend more time observing, the brain begans to order increased production of this chemical and to send it to the rods sooner. This means your night vision will become more acute over time and you will see dimmer things. The more experience you get, the dimmer objects you can see, the quicker your eyes can see them after going out, and the more detail you can see.

The detail I explained at the start. But there is another part to it. You do not want to observe every object for day after day to finally see it in detail. The good part is you do not have to. As your brain builds up a catalog of objects, it will compare what you are seeing to what is in the catalog. When it does not find a match, but finds one close with a difference, it processes those differences. Because the brain is processing them, you can see them. So as you look at globular clusters (for example) you will notice the texture of each and subtle differences. The same with galaxies, etc.

Now that you have seen you are training your brain, how do you use this knowledge to see more? First you are continually training your brain. The time you train it for observing through binoculars or a telescope is a small porportion of the total time you are training it. The first thing to do is increase the ratio of time you are observing. If you observe 1 day a month, increasing your seeing ability will take a long time. Because you are teaching the brain this is a low priority in the things you want your body to do. If you are out every night, the the percentage of time spent observing goes up greatly. The brain assigns a higher priority to it and learns faster. Once the brain learns something it remembers to a degree. This means that if you observe every night to acquire good observing vision, you do not have to spend as much time to keep the level of observing vision you have achieved. If you quit completely for awhile, your brain will began to refile the ability among other unimportant knowledge. When you then commence viewing again a few years later, the brain will have this memoory and as you observe, it will recall the memories. This will make a quicker acclimation than the original time you trained it for astronomy.

All of this is a long way to get to what I said at the start. To see more observe every chance you get. The best accessory for any scope is experienced eyes. This is the #1 thing you need to fully utilize your scope. On cloudy nights, you can still find dark areas to improve your night vision. Try to spend every night in dark. Even turning off any night lights, pulling blinds, etc will help to improve your night vision. Night vision not only is good for viewing DSOs, it will also help you to now trip over that tripod leg on the way to your site. And the reason I went into such length has to do with training your brain also. The more you feed it a piece of information, the more the brain acts upon it. To get something into the subconscious you need to repeat it often in different ways. This post is not only meant to inform you. But to push your brain to believe it and act upon it.

If you are new to amatuer astronomy, time spent outside viewing will help you see more than searching for the next scope to buy.

--------------------
Wayne

80 mm refractor to 8" newt


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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Woodland Hils
*****

Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 2883
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #301600 - 01/06/05 12:13 AM

Great article Wayne. I totally agree. I think people need to be reminded of this fact of nature within us. It's so difficult getting them to realize this.

--------------------


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sienarot
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 708
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #301606 - 01/06/05 12:19 AM

That's a really good write up Wayne!!

At first I saw how much text there was and immediately though "Ugh! Verbal diarrhea!" I really need to train my eyes to read the contents of the text rather than the amount before hitting the "Back" button my browser

--------------------
Derrick
Sky-Watcher 80ED f/7.5 Refractor
Celestron C8 SCT f/10 SCT
Canon EOS 20D
Logitech Quickcam Pro 4000


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Seeing More new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #301609 - 01/06/05 12:25 AM

very enlightening article & thank you for your wisdom

they are very good holistic remedies for aperture fever

drolma


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FAB
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 08/06/04
Posts: 2324
Loc: Blythe, CA USA
Re: Seeing More new [Re: ]
      #301629 - 01/06/05 01:23 AM

A great piece. Every newbie should be grateful to you for sharing your knowledge (and maybe even some of us that aren't so new.)
FAB

--------------------
Floie
10.0" Hardin Dob
6.0" Konus Refractor
3.0" Celestron Tabletop Newtonian
10X50 Binoculars
Bristoscope 772212 Microscope
http://home.earthlink.net/~blhtvl
&
http://home.earthlink.net/~astroclub



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Chris Graham
mmmm...Haggis


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 4869
Loc: Stirling, Scotland
Re: Seeing More new [Re: FAB]
      #301744 - 01/06/05 07:13 AM

A very helpful piece of information, thanks!

--------------------
-Skywatcher 8" Reflector on HEQ5 with Skyscan
-Orion ED80 Refractor
-70mm Guidescope/grab and go scope
-Canon EOS 350D
-Toucam Pro 2

Astronomy & Veggies


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ForgottenMObject
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/11/04
Posts: 3585
Loc: Maryland, US
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Chris Graham]
      #301774 - 01/06/05 08:10 AM

Very true!

Having a huge scope but rarely using it and/or not really understanding how to observe is not as good as having a smaller scope but pushing it to the limits.

One minor point I have to make is that open clusters, IMHO, do benefit from the concepts in this article as well, particularly dense open clusters with dark lanes or hosts of stars at the edge of visibility. Also, with time colors in stars can appear in open clusters with repeated observing. I've found that fun - comparing which stars had a noticeable color to which ones show up with bright colors in photos of the clusters.

--------------------
Matthew
IDA member
XT8i, 10x50 binoculars, lots of eyepieces


Edited by ForgottenMObject (01/06/05 08:18 AM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Seeing More new [Re: ForgottenMObject]
      #301805 - 01/06/05 08:57 AM

Great post!
Even aside from astronomy, I find that attempting to draw or sketch what I see has a very powerfull training effect on my ability to observe.


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Bill Grass
Prince Regent
*****

Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 11652
Loc: Denham Springs, LA
Re: Seeing More new [Re: ]
      #301832 - 01/06/05 09:28 AM

Excellent post, Wayne! I think this oughta be a sticky at the top of the forum.

--------------------



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dgs©Moderator
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 13915
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Bill Grass]
      #301847 - 01/06/05 09:43 AM

Certainly deserves to be pinned at the top.
If I may add... I find that even in the short term, the longer I look, the more I see. Don't get a target in view and then spend all of 15 seconds on it before moving on. Allowing the eye to wander over the FOV for a while often reveals details that went unnoticed at first glance.
I don't know if more years of experience might negate this. Taking into account familiarity with detail that is attainable, as mentioned by Wayne, a more 'seasoned' observer may gain less from the prolonged observing of a single target. But I'd bet more seasoned observers typically linger over objects just the same.

--------------------
- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm



"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike


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markf
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/13/04
Posts: 1935
Loc: Houston, TX
Re: Seeing More new [Re: dgs©]
      #301885 - 01/06/05 10:30 AM

Very nice write up! I'm in the 1 day a month catagory, though I'd love to go out everynight, but it's not practical, as I have to drive out to a dark sight to really take in the views. (living in barely mag 3 skies is depressing )

BUT, even with my limited viewing, I've noticed I can pick up a few more details a lot quicker. My feeble attempts at sketching really do help, especially when I see a post with the same object sketched and can see that I'm not all that far off.

This also means I've progressed to where I can start seeing the problems with my eyepieces, and now researching upgrading them. Which we all know leads down the path of eyepiece addiction....but that's a whole other issue

Mark

--------------------
Celestron C6N on a CG5-GT
Orion 80mm Refractor (guidescope)
ToUCam Pro II
Canon Digital Rebel
http://www.carsandfish.com/astroweb






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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #301911 - 01/06/05 10:54 AM

I myself am new to this hobby, but in my opinion, learning to observe is much like learning to play an instrument, or speak a new language in that it takes training and experience to become proficient. For example, when I was first learning to play guitar, people would say "Hey play me something." This is an unrealistic expectation for a beginner to accomplish. It takes a good bit of time and experience before on can play anything pleasing to the ear. I think the same is true (to a lesser degree) with astronomy. For instance, I had a friend who tagged along with me one night for some observing. I think he was somewhat unimpressed at first because his expectation was that this is an easy hobby and that I would be able to show him dozens upon dozens of interesting objects. He hadn't realized that there is much skill and knowledge to be acquired and that I, as a beginner, had not yet attained that kind of ability. In short, I think a lot of newcomers (myself included) underestimate the amount actual learning this hobby requires and can become a bit frustrated. Once this is realized however, one only needs to realize that this is a hobby to be enjoyed and mastered over a lifetime. That's not such a bad thing in my opinion.

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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Woodland Hils
*****

Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 2883
Re: Seeing More new [Re: ]
      #301916 - 01/06/05 11:00 AM

I would highly recommend this post to any observer, myself included. We all need it.

--------------------


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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 5099
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #302082 - 01/06/05 02:07 PM

Great article Wayne, I agree it should be pinned

--------------------
Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
M102ED S.V., ZS 80FD 10th Anniv, ZS 66SD, PST
POD XL3 http://POD.SchroederCity.com



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lighttrap

*****

Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Chris Schroeder]
      #302088 - 01/06/05 02:12 PM

This will get pinned, but we're probably going to restructure how we pin things in this forum to make it less cluttered. Be patient.

Mike

--------------------
18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others


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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2582
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #302138 - 01/06/05 02:59 PM

While I agree wholeheartedly that the best way to become a better observer--to see more--is to get out and observe, I have to admit I'm highly skeptical of your comments about the body/brain learning to become dark adapted faster through the repetition of observing.

The first time a person goes out at night with a telescope is hardly the first time they've been in a darkened environment. Amateur astronomers bring a lifetime's experience to the hobby of being outside at night and in other dark places. As such, any dark adaptation training the body/brain requires has been satisfied years before we discover this hobby.

As far as I know having read quite a bit on the subject of dark adaptation, the biggest factor determining how long the process takes is the degree to which your rhodopsin has been bleached during the day by exposure to the Sun and other light sources.

If you're aware of research that shows observing experience speeds up the dark adaptation process, I'd be very interested to read it.

Regards,

Bill in Flagstaff

--------------------
Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold

18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon

Cosmic Voyage




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Ron B[ee]
Tyro
*****

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 4719
Loc: CA
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #302144 - 01/06/05 03:05 PM

Quote:

I am posting this in response to many questions I see on the various forums. These questions are from people noew to amatuer astronomy. They are in the form of which XXX will let me see the most. Or in the form of if I sell my xx inch and get a yy inch will I see more.

If you are new to amatuer astronomy, time spent outside viewing will help you see more than searching for the next scope to buy.




What an excellent article, Wayne ! I think you should submit it to CN to be permanently included in the Article section.

Your article is so complete; if there's only one small thing I can add to it is this. I've personally found that the technique of "retinal imaging" , a term my Light Cup christened for sketching also help the observer to see more. The reason is because it let you focus deep in the "Force" and concentrate on features or on that decisive moment when they become crystal clear. Here's a very helpful article by my e-Mentor who helped me develop this skill set.
http://members.leapmail.net/~ericj/drawing.html

Ron the 4-inch Tall Evangelist B[ee]

--------------------
5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO
8-inch f/6 Discovery PDHQ Dob


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Memo
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/05/04
Posts: 529
Loc: Bogotá, Colombia
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #302147 - 01/06/05 03:13 PM

Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences, excellent post.
Best regards

--------------------
Guillermo Castaño (SIRIO)
Orion XT8i / Intelliscope
Bushnell 10x50
Green eyes -0.25 Astigmatism


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: Seeing More new [Re: Demorcan]
      #302149 - 01/06/05 03:18 PM

Thanks for posting that interesting article.
It does raise more questions for me than it answers! That is probably good.
You can read many posts in Cloudy Nights about aperture, APO vs. achromatic, Takahashi vs. Celestron, etc., Nagler EPs vs. lower forms of EP life, stable mounts, seeing conditions, and much more.

Does your article suggest that an experienced observer with trainined eyes and average equipment with a standard Plossl EP can get more out of the observing session than the same equipment with a Newbie and Nagler?

You really bring up some good points and something for people to consider other than "jump on the bandwagon" brand names and "shoot out" reviews. Call me skeptical about "expensive, superior EPs," but I tend to agree with you about the human factor is the most significant factor.

This discussion reminds me of people who work out at the gym. I see guys who buy the latest expensive gear that supposedly does all these wonderful things, yadda, yadda, yadda, and yet the experienced vets with ratty tennis shoes and worn out lifting gloves with better discipline, technique, knowledge, and experience do much better. I realize that optical quality is a factor in viewing, by you are really emphasizing a human quality as perhaps the most significant element in observing and I tend to agree.

Regards,

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
Orion Mak 127mm
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
Surveyor's tripod/Hercules single-arm alt-az mount
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Digital Rebel XT
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Seeing More new [Re: Bill Grass]
      #302229 - 01/06/05 04:36 PM

Quote:

Excellent post, Wayne! I think this oughta be a sticky at the top of the forum.




i agree as well


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