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Cerberus
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 2689
Loc: Newton, KS 67114
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Great article!!!!
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desertstars
Deja moo
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 30043
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Demorcan, I agree with your sentiments completely. No matter how the body and brain learns to observe, a yard full of expensive equipment won't do more for the beginner than a few months of experience at the eyepiece. The equipment is certainly a necessity, but the observer is what makes it work.
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Tom W.
SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars
Alcohol and calculus do not mix. Please don't drink and derive.
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rmcpb
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/16/04
Posts: 1568
Loc: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
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This article is really great!! If it became a "standard" along with the articles on "tuning" telescopes and really getting to know how they work many people would get much more out of their hobby.
Cheers
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Rob
8" & 13" Dobs
Equatorial Platform
Couple of Panoptics and a handful of BO/TMBs
9x60 binocs
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antar8x
member
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Bogota D.C., Colombia
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I just be introduced to the Universe... and read this makes me think about how serious is this hobby... I hope Soon I will contribute with my own experiences.
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____________________________________8X
Jorge G Calderon G
Bogota D.C., Colombia (2640 mts closer to the stars)
Orion DOB XT8 (SIMON)
Meade ETX-60AT-BB for my vacations days 
BINO 10x50 Bushnell
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chazcheese
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/21/04
Posts: 545
Loc: Phoenix, Az
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Thank you for your great post. My wife asked me a year or so ago why I keep looking at the same things over and over. Told her pretty much the same thing, "The more I look, the more I see" Again, thank you great post.
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chuck
10" Orion xt
8" Meade LX200 mount/2080 OTA
C4R on CG5
Vixen ED80Sf on Porta Mount
AT-1010
PST
12X63 mini giants
15x70 Skymasters
Virgo Bino mount on Sanford/Davis tripod
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Wonderful post! I have had my scope for 1 1/2 years and before discovering this site, was content in just looking about the skies with star charts in hand, getting familiar with the 'great beyond' and my scope. This site, your posts and varied opinions has truely broadened my appreciation for this hobby and.... broadened my 'wish list'(telrad, filters, etc), but this post alone has made me stop, take stock in the basic idea that one must learn to walk before running. Thank you all so very much for your wisdom that only experience can bring!
Clear skies,
Snowy
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16406
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Great job Wayne; you've hit the distinction between "looking" and "observing"! 
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
The first time a person goes out at night with a telescope is hardly the first time they've been in a darkened environment. Amateur astronomers bring a lifetime's experience to the hobby of being outside at night and in other dark places. As such, any dark adaptation training the body/brain requires has been satisfied years before we discover this hobby.
As far as I know having read quite a bit on the subject of dark adaptation, the biggest factor determining how long the process takes is the degree to which your rhodopsin has been bleached during the day by exposure to the Sun and other light sources.
You are correct. A person waking up in the middle of the night will be at near fully dark adapted vision. A short nap before observing is the best way to prepare for observing after a day in bright lights. The amount of rhodopsin (visual purple) available to the rods varies short term with the amount of light hitting the eyes which causes it to somewhat break down. The way the brain uses what is available is also a factor. I do not know which is the limiting factor.
Night vision improves from being in the dark and allowing your eyes to become dark adapted. Many people have good night vision who do not use telescopes at all. Night vision is also effected my chemicals in the body. Nicotine from smoking has both short and long term negative effects in night vision. Eye dilation and pupil size is also a part of dark adapted vision which I did not discuss.
Some of the things I discussed are incidental to studies on another topic. I read medical journals, etc and then summerize the information to send to doctors who do not have the time to read everything every month. There are of course sources listed so the doctors can follow up anything they want. Over time I do not keep the sources, just notes of the information that interests me.
The night vision improvement over time was from a government study for improving the training of some combat troops who operate at night. I am not sure what paper it was in. I will hunt it up when my post holiday schedule gives me a little more time.
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Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
Does your article suggest that an experienced observer with trainined eyes and average equipment with a standard Plossl EP can get more out of the observing session than the same equipment with a Newbie and Nagler?
Yes, that is exactly what it suggests to a degree. If we define "get more out of the observing session" as seeing more. I limit it in this way, because a person may get more out of their first view of Saturn than an experienced user gets who sees more. The first view of Saturn usually has an emotional effect beyond just the details noted. The choice of a Nagler is interesting. When I saw the view with a 31mm Nagler in one of my scopes, it was an emotional experience that was unrelated to the exact details and stars I saw. This cannot be ignored.
I would say based on star party experiences, that an experienced observor with an 8" scope would see more details of a subject than a new viewer with a 10" scope of the same quality. I think the difference is more than the 2 inches from the number of times I have seen. I personally am in the middle area and constanyly have to be aware of this when showing people objects through my scopes. I have personally seen a night when an experienced user was looking at Jupiter through my 5"OA and discussing hte GRS appearance that night. Next to me was the new owner of a 10" Dob who could not see the bands much less the GRS. Through his scope, I could see some festoons and the GRS. But not through my 5" that night.
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Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Quote:
I just be introduced to the Universe... and read this makes me think about how serious is this hobby... I hope Soon I will contribute with my own experiences.
Until you contribute with your own experiences, you contribute by being here. A post like this that you found value in a post is encouragement to many of us who offer from our knowledge and experience here.
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Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Demorcan
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Central Illinois
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Thank you to those who have added to my basic ideas. I had no experience one way or another about open clusters. The mention of sketching really deserves to be considered. While not every is of a temperament to sketch, those who make the attempt will see more the first night they do. You see more from just taking that extra time, noting what you see, going back to the view to add more, and so on.
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Wayne
80 mm refractor to 8" newt
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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All of my astro gear came with directions,heres a set of directions for your eyes.Very well said,thanks Wayne!
Bill
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Nauset
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/24/04
Posts: 3457
Loc: Cape Cod
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Nicely done Wayne. I guess I don't think about "training' my eyes as work. The pleasure I obtain from this hobby is the ongoing process of just exploring. I set up my gear in front of my house and just explore the night sky with my eyes for about 20 minutes before turning to look through my scope. As Sam mentioned, some newcomers have expectations that they will be viewing dozens upon dozens of interesting objects and underestimate the actual amount of learning this hobby requires. This is precisely why I find this hobby so pleasurable. There is always something new to learn and some beautiful unobserved object to discover.
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Betsy
Hardin 8" Dob (inspected by J. Dobson himself), Oberwerks 11x56, Meade Kestrel 10x42
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Secretary, Cape Cod Astronomical Society www.ccas.ws
avatar of Cape Cod taken by Dan Burbank from the Discovery Shuttle
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Stargazer2
super member
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 172
Loc: Silverton, Oregon
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Thanks for this good review on sensory training. Hopefully it will help me be a little more patient with myself and at the same time more diligent.
I should have recognized the learning curve since I've been through it twice before.
The first time involved training my hearing in the automotive trade which was definately helpful in diagnosing engine problems.
The second was when I became a watchmaker. You definately need to train your eyes to recognize things that seemed virtually invisibly at first glance.
Hopefully this will encourage newcomers to give it a go, not give up too quickly and enjoy the process of exploring.
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Dale
Hardin 10" DSH in Beautiful Black
Swift 7x50
Meade 12x50
Celestron 15x70
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Tim2723
The Moon Guy
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 5121
Loc: Northern New Jersey
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Great article Wayne!
This is an excerpt (thanks Dan Luna!) from "The Moon, Considered as a Planet, a World, and a Satellite" by James Nasymth and James Carpenter, which was written in 1874:
"...And supposing the telescope and atmosphere in good state, there is still an important point, the state of the observer's eye, to be considered. After all it is the eye that sees, and the best telescopic assistance to an untrained eye is of small avail. The eye is as susceptible of education and development as any other organ; a skilful and acute observer is to a mere casual gazer what a watchmaker would be to a ploughman, a miniature painter to a whitewasher. This fact is not generally recognised; no man would think of taking in hand an engraver's burin, and expecting on the instant to use it like an adept, or of going to a smithy and without previous preparation trying to forge a horse-shoe. Yet do folks enter observatories with uneducated eyes, and expect at once to realise all the wonderful things that their minds have pictured to themselves from the perusal of astronomical books. We have over and over again remarked the dissatisfaction which attends the first looks of novices through a powerful telescope. They anticipate immediately beholding wonders, and they are disappointed at finding how little they can see, and how far short the sight falls of what they had expected. Courtesy at times leads them to express wonder and surprise, which it is easy to see is not really felt, but sometimes honesty compels them to give expression to their disappointment. This arises from the simple fact that their eyes are not fit for the work which is for the moment imposed upon them ; they know not what to look for, or how to look for it. The first essay at telescopic gazing, like first essays generally, serves but to teach us our incapability."
That was true in 1874, and is still true today.
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The crwth will set you free!
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BobNY
super member
Reged: 11/30/04
Posts: 156
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Wayne,
Thanks for a great, and educational article. Your article pretty much explains my first three times out with my new telescope. I have viewed Saturn a few times, and haven't yet been able to see the Cassini Division, or any details.
This morning I woke up and went out to view Jupiter for my first time. At first I couldn't see any detail. I must say I was a bit disappointed. I was thinking I am expecting to much from my 5" Newt. I continued to view longer, and eventually was able to see two bands. They were faint, but there. Also last night I was scanning the sky to observe some deep sky objects. That was definately frustrating. I guess patients, and persistence is my answer. Darn...and I was already to go out and get a bigger scope.
Thanks again for the great info.
This should be included in the firsy few pages of every telescope owners manual.
Bob
Edited by BobNY (01/11/05 10:46 PM)
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LeSage
member
Reged: 01/18/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Wichita, KS
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This article was very encouraging to me also. And fascinating. And I agree: I've had my 8" newt for about a month, and had my 70mm refractor for a month before that. It's been cloudy a lot of that time, but I still carry the stuff out to the backyard every chance I get. So...I have not yet managed to see M33, and I've looked for it two or three times. The skies here are about 4.5 mag, from what I can figure--I can't see the 5th mag star in the Little Dipper, but if I wait and concentrate I can see all the others. So maybe it's the sky and not me that's at "fault" here. 
I find myself most nights spending more time just staring up at the sky than actually looking throught the eyepiece--I'm still trying to learn the constellations, the names of the brighter stars, the relationship of the different bits to the other bits when you turn around and face another direction, using averted vision to figure out if I can really pick out some of the clusters without my finder--just trying to get oriented.
Last night I waited up later than usual to see Jupiter, and what I saw confirms what others have said above. I could see the four large moons, of course, and at first nothing on the the planet itself. But I kept going back to it (while also searching for M51, unsuccessfully), and by the time I packed up I had seen two dark bands on the big boy. I was hopping back and forth between the two telescopes, partly to get used to using them both and partly to see if one or the other was really all that superior. In my light-polluted skies, I'm not sure the 8", at least for someone of my current skill level at observing, is that much of an advantage over the 70mm. Maybe I'll change my tune after I get better at this.
But soon, very soon, I'm loading all the toys into the car and driving out to the dark sky site I have in mind, and THEN we'll see what can be seen.
Sheryl
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Sheryl LeSage
8" Starhopper
130mm Nexstar SLT
Firstscope 70
Optiview 10X50's
Celestron 15 X 70's
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Darts
member
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Redford, Mich
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 This article, while I'm sure helpful, is rather depressing to the noob (me) who hasn't even looked through a real scope yet. I'm at the "research" stage of this hobby and have been reading this forum since last thursday, every chance I get, and I'm overwhelmed to be honest. I've found this site VERY informative, newbie friendly, and from what I've seen so far, one of the better forums for learning this hobby.
My question is, just how disappointed am I going to be when I go to the local hobby shop that has demos every thursday, weather permitting, when they demo the C6R, or XT 10" or a Meade LX200? Will I see a blob of Saturn when the guy giving the demo will see the Cassini division?
I understand I need patience, you all have stressed that home to me. But I have to admit, that this article leaves me with reservations about what scope to buy now. Some say they see stuff with an SCT 5" and other see stuff with a 10" dob. Some stuff costs thousands, and other stuff costs 500 or so. Is this article saying I can get away with 500 bucks of equipment and the same amount of training as someone with 5000 worth of equipment? Is this article also saying that this hobby isn't something I can spontaniously impress friends and family with the occasional view because they haven't been trained in "seeing"?
I don't in anyway mean to be disrespectful, especially this being my first post and never looking through a real scope after 44 years on this rock. ( I had a Kmart scope when I was 8, does that count?) 
I'm looking to purchase the Orion XT10 for more of the DSO's rather than the planets, will this take even more patience and training?
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Orion 8" Newt 1000mm FL, F/4.9 FR on Altas EQ-G Upgrade Mount,
7 X 35 Cheapy Binos
20X90 Oberwerk w/UA P-mount on Surveyor Tripod
Coronado PST <---Latest edition/obsession
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 13911
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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You'll see plenty right off the bat with a 10"Ø Newtonian. The Dob mount will save you money too. Images of Saturn will knock anyones socks off. Every time I have my 8"Ø out for other people to look through (school events) at least one person will say, "that's a picture in there isn't it"... never fails. 
The Cassini Division is alway there for me, unless the atmospheric seeing is just terrible. Only the banding on the planet itself is subtle, and even that can be picked out by a novice.
Jupiter will show stripes (equatorial belts and zones) but swirls and festoons will take some practice to pick out I think. Transits of moons across the face of jupiter are obvious at times and shadow transits even moreso.
Many clusters (globular and open) will be stunning to anyone as well.
Orion's Nebula is spectacular and easy. Lots of other nebulae are easy enough to pick out, but not usually as big and splashy as Orion's.
And of course there's always the moon. Larger aperture gives higher resolution for greater detail. You'll want a Variable Polarizing filter for that, as the moon is as bright as a flashlight directly in the eye.
If your lucky enough to have a local demonstration night, be sure to take advantage.
And welcome to Cloudy Nights. Stick around and let us help you dispose of some of that extra money you have lying around. 
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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Darts
member
Reged: 02/13/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Redford, Mich
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Thanks for the encouragement, David. Can you pick out detail in Andromeda with your 8" Dob? How about M33? Or will these require more seeing experience? As for the Demo, its looking like a wash for this thursday because of clouds. Also, I live in a fairly urban area, (real close to Detroit) so how much will light polution affect a Demo on a 10" dob? Should I start posting questions like this in another thread?
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Orion 8" Newt 1000mm FL, F/4.9 FR on Altas EQ-G Upgrade Mount,
7 X 35 Cheapy Binos
20X90 Oberwerk w/UA P-mount on Surveyor Tripod
Coronado PST <---Latest edition/obsession
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