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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Just a little over a year ago, I purchased a pair of Oberwerk's widely known 15x70 binoculars. They have been well reviewed and compared over the past year by many and in fact my own 15x70s are the subject of two articles in the Big binocular review section here on CN.
There are many aspects of performance to discuss in a comprehensive binocular review. This post is not that comprehensive. But just recently, in some internet posts, I had an exchange with Kevin Busarow from Oberwerk about the ability of the 15x70s to "see" and how they compare to some other binoculars. Kevin related to me that the 15x70 binoculars have improved. I now have in my hands a new 2003 model of the Oberwerk 15x70 and I'm comparing them to my May 2002 model.
There is a significant difference in the coatings between the 02 and 03 models. While I had noted the 02 model has the most reflections off the lenses of various binoculars I was testing at the time, the new 03 model has significantly less reflections off the objective lenses. At the eye lens, the 02 models appears to be single MgF coated and the 03 model seems to have the same multicoating as the objective.
In use tripod mounted on a nice clear night, the 03 model shows significantly improved performance over the 02 model. In detailed observation of every star group I tested, the 03 model sees a few more stars than my 02 model. On a few double stars, most in the range of 16" to 13", the 03 model showed a marginal improvement. No huge differnces here, but a few doubles easier to see or suspected where the 02 model did not see it at all. The limit for my eyes with these binoculars still seems to be an even 14" double, but somewhat easier to see in the 03 model.
The overall view thru the new 03 model seems to be noticably brighter than the older 02 model. Viewing around the area of the Cygnus Milky Way, there was more and brighter faint star background visible in the new 03 model.
These 15x70s, just like my 02 model, need to have the right diopter adjusted about 90% into the minus range to focus even with my glasses on. That did not take away from the views I got with these binocs, but if you are right eye near-sighted and you want to use these without glasses, it will be a problem.
I had my 16x70 Fujinons out also while I was comparing the 02 vs 03 15x70s. I would say, while the newer 03 Oberwerks still are not Fujinons, the gap has narrowed since the 02 model. Those of you who are buying the latest Oberwerk 15x70 are getting a product which has been improved over the pair I bought a year ago.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Ed,
Thanks for your great discussion of the Oberwerk 15X70 binocs. The one question I have is whether or not they have improved the light-scatter problem with the baffles that you mentioned in your reviews of the 2002 models?
Thanks,
Tom Haymes
haymest
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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This is only a problem when very bright objects are moved to the edge of the fov. For instance, Vega, viewed at the very edge of the fov would produce a reflection down the inside of the barrel. It's not much of a problem really and does not occur for normal starfields. But Vega at the edge of the fov in Fujinon 16x70s produces no reflections what-so-ever.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I bought the Oberwerk 15x70 this year. Is their any obvious visual differences between the 2002 and 2003 models. I would like to know for certain if mine are the 2003 model.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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The most obvious outwardly noticeable difference is in the coatings. The '02 model has only blue coatings on the eyepieces. The '03 model has the same coatings on the eyepieces as it does on the objectives and it gives off a green/purple color.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Confirmed. Mine are 2003. Thank you Ed.
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Ed,
You wrote: These ...need to have the right diopter adjusted about 90% into the minus range to focus even with my glasses on.
How good is the eye relief on the Oberwerk 15X70 WITH glasses? Can you see the entire FOV? Todd Gross rated the ER as "excellent," and he does wear glasses, but 16mm seems a bit short for eyeglass wearers. A reviewer on Astronomy Forum said he had to press his eyes hard against the eyecups to see the entire FOV, and that was without glasses. Take 16mm, then minus a few mm for my thin polycarbonate glasses and another few mm for the distance of my eyes behind the glasses, and I've lost about 3-5mm from the available ER.
Would I be better off losing a few mm aperture to see the full FOV in an Orion 15X63 Mini Giant with 19mm ER?
Thanks, Brock
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12592
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Hi Brock,
I have not found a binocular on the market yet with a published eye relief that equals what you end up with for "usable" eye relief.A few are close. Usually what is published is the exit pupil distance, the distance from lens to exit pupil optimum point. All binoculars have some lens recess, most about 3mm-4mm and some like the Fujinon 16x70 or the Orion 16x80 Giant have lenses recessed 9mm-10mm. This makes the "usable" eye relief less than the exit pupil distance.
As an eyeglass wearer myself (astigmatism in one eye), I find the Oberwerk 15x70 comfortable to use with my glasses on. The lenses are recessed 2mm from the surface of the rubber eyecup guard. This 2mm is short but adequate, probably a minimum necessary for eyeglass wearers. Eye lenses mounted right at the surface (Oberwerk 20x80 Deluxe =1mm) will come into contact with the curvature of your eye glasses and both the eyeglass lens and the binocular eyepiece will get scratched.
The Obie 15x70 provides about 15mm of eye relief with the cups folded down. My newest pair measured 16mm. All these measurements are difficult and can be +/- a bit. For my thin polycarbonate lenses, that is more than enough to permit seeing the entire field of view. I would say I need a minimum of 13-14mm relief to get in the entire fov from any binocular. I have a few that measure in the 9mm-11mm range and I can only see about 90% of the fov with those.
I find with the cups fully extended and using without my glasses, the Obie 15x70 seems to be just a little further away from the eyes, maybe 1-2mm. I wrote some notes indicating when used without glasses and cups full out, I was only able to see about 90% of the fov. That would agree with the commnts you read about needing to press the cups tight to see the full fov. I guess the cups are a tad long, but they are very soft and comfortable, so pressing them in tight presents no discomfort.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1516
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Ed,
Thanks for the quick reply, the Obie 15X70 sounds worth trying. As I'm sure you know, there are a lot of opinions out there about how much ER is necessary in binoculars to see the entire FOV with eyeglasses. The numbers I've read usually range from 18mm to 20mm. However, as you stated, the actual useable ER is dependent on how far the lenses are recessed and the thickness of your glasses. Two other factors enter the equation for me. I have a high-bridged nose and deep-set eyes (think Sam Elliot or Al Pacino). I have a hard time getting my nose in between oversized EPs. The Swift Audubon has a wide TFOV (8.2*), but the hard, oversized eyecups made it impossible to get close enough to see the entire FOV because the EPs couldn't fit in my eyesockets, and wearing glasses was not an option since the useable ER for the Audubon is only about 12mm (advertised as 17). If the Obie is based on the Fuji design, I might have the same problem as I did with Audubon. So I will have to borrow a pair from one of my fellow club members and try it out.
"Fit" is a factor not often talked about in reviews, because it's so personal, but it's an important criterion for anyone who does not have flat features since most Japanese and Chinese binoculars seem to be desinged for Asian faces. There's also hand size to consider if the binocular is to be handheld. While I found the Audubon fit my X-L sized hands comfortably, people with small hands might find it too bulky. Conversely, I find small roof prism binoculars hard to hold, because I can wrap one hand around both barrels.
Brock
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Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I have an older 2002 (or was that late 2001) pair of Oberwerk 15x70s and the eye relief is closer to 2cm - I'd say around 18mm. I have terrible near-sighted vision and wear thick glasses and find the eye relieve is more than adequate. In fact, I have to back off a bit even with my thick glasses to avoid blackout. My rubber eyecups fell off shortly after I received my pair - but I didn't use them anyway (maybe that's something else they fixed in more recent versions?) I'd just say that eye relief isn't a problem at all for these guys - unless you're worried about having too much. Thanks, EdZ for a great article about the new upgraded units. I honestly have been completely satisfied with the old ones - but it's nice to know that there's an upgrade when I my neighbor succeeds in stealing these and I have to get a new pair!
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