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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory
CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF
      #3023033 - 04/03/09 11:39 PM

I know I know......You just got the dang G-11. I spoke with Mike B for awhile today and have been going back and forth since the Pro was announced. I have learned that one needs to look at several things and FINALLY settle. So in the interest of A: Future proofing myself and B: I have always been a supporter of Celestron and the CGE. Based on the specs I'm hoping it is impressive. I do have two concerns and that is the height of the mount. Any idea of the height from the bottom of the electronics pier to the top of the saddle? Is the counterweight shaft diameter the same size as the CGE? I have 2 CGE CW's that I'm hoping to be able to use.

The height may be a killer though. I built the obervatory walls sized to the CGE/NJP I had and they acted as a great windbreak. The Pro looks REALLY tall though. I'd hate to have to cut a 12" diameter concrete pier, drill and epoxy new pier bolts in place

CS's


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LLEEGE
True Blue
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Reged: 03/03/05

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023041 - 04/03/09 11:46 PM

Congrats! The Pro looks like it has lots of potential.

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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3023056 - 04/03/09 11:56 PM

I'm hoping so You gonna be around to help me get it into my truck

I don't know if it will throw up 900 numbers, even with PE enabled but the payload is right. If the +9/-9 is true I'm figuring PemPro should be able to get it down around +2/-2 or slightly better.


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LLEEGE
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023172 - 04/04/09 01:35 AM

Not sure what time I'm leaving Sunday, but I'd be happy to help.

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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023256 - 04/04/09 04:18 AM

Your going to enjoy the mount. I'm very happy with mine.
Bottom of pier to top of saddle on mine is 31". Haven't tried a CGE counterweight but it looks the same I'll check for you later today.

Phil


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3023413 - 04/04/09 08:39 AM

Phil,

How do you like the 4 knob saddle setup? How does the sound when slewing compare to a CGE? How flexible are the motor cables? Sorry for all the questions!

CS's


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023509 - 04/04/09 10:04 AM

Son.....you have it bad! I must say, though, I'm looking forward to your review and a couple of Pempro graphs.

Hey Luke...see if you can get this guy under control at NEAF.

Ya' gotta' love the Mount section.

David


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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023534 - 04/04/09 10:20 AM

The saddle is three knobs. Four knobs for the clutch locks.
There is no comparison when it's slewing with the CGE. It's quiet the neighbours will enjoy the sleep. The cables are similar to aircraft cables with the J-type connectors. I don't anticipate any problems with them.

Phil


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3023593 - 04/04/09 10:46 AM

Quote:

Your going to enjoy the mount. I'm very happy with mine.
Bottom of pier to top of saddle on mine is 31". Haven't tried a CGE counterweight but it looks the same I'll check for you later today.

Phil




31" - WOW that is one TALL mount, huh? This is making me glad I made the call (last night!) to go with the MI250 - its more like 21"; which is close to my CGE, which works very well with my wall height...

Unlike Bobby, I have no concrete I can "cut"... I'd hafta buy a new pier - ka-ching...

But, I'll still be interested, because I did LOVE my CGE; I like the interface and overall stability and excellence... that capacity on the CGE-Pro is very attractive, and lets face it - from the pics - it is gorgeous! (to me)...

Congrats Bobby... maybe see/meet you at NEAF (after all much of your "ex gear" seems to be meeting me!)

clear enough skies


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WadeH237
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023628 - 04/04/09 11:09 AM

Quote:

I don't know if it will throw up 900 numbers, even with PE enabled but the payload is right. If the +9/-9 is true I'm figuring PemPro should be able to get it down around +2/-2 or slightly better.




It seems like that should be possible. I get +2/-2 with my CGE and PEC enabled. I would think that the CGE Pro can match this.

The thing about the 900, though, is that it is very, very smooth. My CGE has about .5 arc seconds of noise when it tracks.

I'll be interested in hearing how the CGE Pro does with this.

-Wade


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BowmoremanModerator
Clear enough skies
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3023708 - 04/04/09 11:57 AM

I just went out to WSO and measured things (mount height wise)...

My CGE is about 22" from piertop to mid-saddle... so the MI250 will be perfect...

If I had decided to go with the CGEM-Pro (at 31") that would have taking the mid-saddle point exactly 4" below my roof run-off clearance... meaning - new pier time

Maybe, get out that concrete saw, Bobby!

clear enough skies


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3023937 - 04/04/09 02:05 PM

Bottom of the electronics pier to mid point of the saddle is 28". To top of saddle is 31". for my lat.

Phil


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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3023944 - 04/04/09 02:09 PM

I looked at the MI250. Nice mount very well made but I've used the Gemini and I think it's primative. That's why I went with the CGE Pro. If the MI250 had a more modern goto system I probably have bought one.

Phil


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Spoonsize
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Reged: 08/27/04

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3023946 - 04/04/09 02:11 PM Attachment (54 downloads)

Quote:



I'd hate to have to cut a 12" diameter concrete pier, drill and epoxy new pier bolts in place

CS's




It can be done, he said, having in the past over a similiar decision.


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Spoonsize]
      #3024079 - 04/04/09 03:49 PM

Steve,

Just looking at that picture gives me the willies bad! I just finished painting the inside of the roll off with a nice satin black paint and doing a spring cleaning. I can get my hands on a wet saw but man oh man it would still be a mess I think. I'm up at my property right now but come Monday I am going to need to do some serious measuring.

For me, this will be equivalent to buying a 900 class mount and with it's payload will be the foundation of my final rig. I was REALLY considering Jason's/My old MI but it was just outside the financial ballpark.

I'm hoping the CW shafts are the same size as I held onto 2 15lb Casady CW's from my last CGE's I had and would love to use them with the Pro.

I love the screw connect cables and although I think overkill, the 4 knob clutch system is cool. I think they added it for those who may try to test the 90lb Payload.

I agree the AP mounts are stupidly smooth when it comes to PE and I don't expect the Celestron to be as smooth but as long as it's tolerable it should be fine with the Fl's I'm working with.

I am a bit concerned as it seems at least 1 owner took delivery of a Pro and it was DOA out of the box Hope fully Mike will let me plug the one in at NEAF and slew it around before I pack it up.

CS's


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3024080 - 04/04/09 03:50 PM

Quote:

Not sure what time I'm leaving Sunday, but I'd be happy to help.




That's cool....andy will be there to help me. The only thing I need to watch is to make sure he puts the boxes in MY truck and not his car Lol.


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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3024100 - 04/04/09 04:05 PM

Just tested one of my Losmandy counterweights from a CI-700 and it fits the CGE Pro.

Phil


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Spoonsize
DURHAM 157494
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Reged: 08/27/04

Loc: Stuck in a Time Warp.
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3024104 - 04/04/09 04:09 PM

HMmmmm...perhaps it's time for that second observatory you've always wanted?

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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3024114 - 04/04/09 04:15 PM

Quote:

Just tested one of my Losmandy counterweights from a CI-700 and it fits the CGE Pro.

Phil






Thanks Phil! Your a gentleman and a scholar!

Any issues that you can see so far? Have you done a fake alignement or dry run?

sorry for the questions but this is a BIG purchase and a lot hanging on it.

CS's


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Spoonsize]
      #3024119 - 04/04/09 04:17 PM

Not at my house BUT........I'm finishing up a 12" pier at my property up in Mass. which will eventually be surrounded by a 12X12 roll off. That pier I made shorter than this one to take advatnage of the horizons and Mage 6+ skies......

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Phil Cowell
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Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3024328 - 04/04/09 06:38 PM

I've lugged it out into the backyard and given it a run with my AT111EDT. It's sweet. Quiet, and if your used to a Celestrons HC's like an old friend.
Phil


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BowmoremanModerator
Clear enough skies
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3024705 - 04/04/09 10:43 PM

Yeah... one point I'm NOT looking forward to is learning YET ANOTHER new handcontrol/protocol for goto, etc...

I had just gotten to where I could do everything with the CGE from memory and by rote...

Now I gotta learn Gemini... ah well, it'll make good bedtime reading over the next few weeks - LOL...

Congrats, Bobby... it's one sweet looking mount. Kinda uber-Germanic/Teutonic "cool" in a Bauhaus kinda way...

Seems to me it's pretty hard to go wrong in the $5K and up range... funny, that...

clear enough skies


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3024706 - 04/04/09 10:44 PM

BTW, Phil...

Just noticed you're "southern Tier"... whereabouts?

My wife's from Corning, and my Father in law still lives in Elmira... we get there several times a year... I'm thinking next family visit there, I'm gonna hafta "hop out" and visit Cherry Springs, about an hour away...

small world

clear enough skies


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Reged: 05/18/05

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3024745 - 04/04/09 11:08 PM

Quote:

Yeah... one point I'm NOT looking forward to is learning YET ANOTHER new handcontrol/protocol for goto, etc...

I had just gotten to where I could do everything with the CGE from memory and by rote...

Now I gotta learn Gemini... ah well, it'll make good bedtime reading over the next few weeks - LOL...

Congrats, Bobby... it's one sweet looking mount. Kinda uber-Germanic/Teutonic "cool" in a Bauhaus kinda way...

Seems to me it's pretty hard to go wrong in the $5K and up range... funny, that...

clear enough skies




I think you'll get an "AMEN" from other Gemini users when I tell you to read the manual. If you follow the instructions, it is not a big learning curve, but if you try to do it like the typical male (instructions? we don't need no stinkin' instructions ), you'll be cursing everyone one of we MI250 owners for giving you bad advice.

David


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #3024771 - 04/04/09 11:25 PM

Not uber-worried, David... I'm an ex TECO programmer (amongst other arcanity)... I fear NO manual...



but appreciate the warning, nonetheless...

We now return you to Bobby's original posting topic...

clear enough skies


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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3025050 - 04/05/09 05:29 AM

Quote:

BTW, Phil...

Just noticed you're "southern Tier"... whereabouts?

My wife's from Corning, and my Father in law still lives in Elmira... we get there several times a year... I'm thinking next family visit there, I'm gonna hafta "hop out" and visit Cherry Springs, about an hour away...

small world

clear enough skies




I'm in Johnson City just West of Binghamton. About an hour to the East of Elmira.

Phil

Phil


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RAKing
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #3025238 - 04/05/09 09:13 AM

Quote:

I think you'll get an "AMEN" from other Gemini users when I tell you to read the manual. If you follow the instructions, it is not a big learning curve, but if you try to do it like the typical male (instructions? we don't need no stinkin' instructions ), you'll be cursing everyone one of we MI250 owners for giving you bad advice.




AMEN

While I love the results - solid alignment and dead center Gotos - the interface is Spartan to say the least. It reminds me of my old VAX days.

RTFM, Dude.

Ron


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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: RAKing]
      #3025444 - 04/05/09 11:12 AM

Quote:



While I love the results - solid alignment and dead center Gotos - the interface is Spartan to say the least. It reminds me of my old VAX days.

RTFM, Dude.

Ron



Yeah kinda like the astro DEC PDP-7 which is why I went with the CGE Pro. Lifes too short for spartan interfaces.


Phil


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3025498 - 04/05/09 11:42 AM

I don't know...I've gotten pretty quick with the commands of the Gemini. It's kinda' like watching a teenager text message. I can zip around the pad and get the 250 to move around in short order.

Besides, when imaging, how much do you move the mount around anyway? I guess I like the results of the thing.

David


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #3025525 - 04/05/09 11:56 AM

I agree some people like it, have a Gemini on a CI-700. To be honest though it was the Gemini that stopped me from getting the MI-250 or the Titan. It's very capable but I just don't like it. It's a personal thing I guess, also I'm more a visual user who likes large aperture scopes not so much an imager (yet?).

Phil


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BowmoremanModerator
Clear enough skies
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3025970 - 04/05/09 03:46 PM

You guys are KILLING me...

I'm sitting here, sippin a brewksi, and reading the Gemini manual, thinking... "how hard can THIS be?"...

that said, I'm coming from the Celestron interface, which took me a while to grok after the unbelievable, video-game simplicity of the Sphinx Starbook...

ah, well... since ultimately, it's going to be permanently mounted and driven by TheSky/CCDSoft, etc... and remoteable, I suppose es macht nichts...

On the other (third?) hand; perhaps I'm too old (at 3 weeks from 50) to learn yet another arcane computer related interface...

We'll see I guess...

FWIW - I absolutely HATED the Meade Autostar, so what does that make me, some kind of Luddite?

Hmmmm... wonder if we could figure out how to adapt the Celestron NextStar to currently Gemini-compatible...

(listen to me, complaining BEFORE I even try it!)... LOL

But... we digress... I still think that Bobby's soon to be new CGE Pro looks absolutely stunning!

clear enough skies


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Alph
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Reged: 11/23/06

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3026067 - 04/05/09 04:37 PM

Quote:

FWIW - I absolutely HATED the Meade Autostar, so what does that make me, some kind of Luddite?




I have looked at many mount controllers. The Meade Autostar stands out as an overall winner in terms of functionality and features. If you did not like it, then most likely the Gemini controller is not for you either and you will hate it even more.


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3026135 - 04/05/09 05:02 PM

It's a matter pf personal opinion and comfort level. To me the Nexstar software and controller was better than the Meade Autostar and I have owned both. The Gemini is incredibly powerful when you take the time to read and learn all it is capable of doing. Is it archaic? absolutely but it's simplicity is it's shining point. I have gotten to the point with the G11 that I can click my way around the menus without even really looking at what I am doing. The GoTos are outstanding when you take the time to do an accurate model. My current model is based on 50 points spread accross the sky. The mount never fails to put the object on the chip of my SSAG with a 600mm guidescope.

The 250/Gemini combo is incredible once you get the hang of it. If it weren't for the cost of the 250 vs the Pro it wouldn't have been a chocie.

There is something very "Organic" and almost "Cyborg" like about the CGEPro. I just wished that Celestron would have taken the height into consideration.

Edited by Strgazr27 (04/05/09 05:05 PM)


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3026138 - 04/05/09 05:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

FWIW - I absolutely HATED the Meade Autostar, so what does that make me, some kind of Luddite?




I have looked at many mount controllers. The Meade Autostar stands out as an overall winner in terms of functionality and features. If you did not like it, then most likely the Gemini controller is not for you either and you will hate it even more.




But, I loved NextStar??? Whazzup with THAT? Maybe it was the "Orange"? Or I just got MORE experienced with arcanity? Both?

At the end of the day, it's about the quality of the mount first, and the interface second... which is why the CGE Pro was on my list all along!

Bobby, it'll be really interesting to get your full report once you're all setup and workin with it! You go through mounts like most of us go through six-packs!

Clear enough skies


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Alph
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/23/06

Loc: Melmac
Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3026220 - 04/05/09 05:37 PM

Quote:

It's a matter pf personal opinion and comfort level



Sure but there are some objective facts. Neither Gemini nor Nextstar controllers allow for uploading user objects like asteroids, satellites, comets, DSOs/stars, and land objects. Nexstar controller also can't go to Alt/Az coordinates.

Quote:

I just wished that Celestron would have taken the height into consideration.




I see how this could be a problem for the C14 owners.


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3026253 - 04/05/09 05:55 PM

Yeah but I pretty sure Celestron will be around next year. That to me is more important than nice to have features. Can you say the same about Meade in it's current form?
The RCX was a disaster. The law suit for the RC statement was icing on the financial cake?

Also what mount around $5K that will take around the 90 - 100# capacity does Meade make? The topic is about GEM mounts in this class. Not Alt/AZ.

Phil


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mclewis1
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3026254 - 04/05/09 05:55 PM

Quote:

Sure but there are some objective facts. Neither Gemini nor Nextstar controllers allow for uploading user objects like asteroids, satellites, comets, DSOs/stars, and land objects. Nexstar controller also can't go to Alt/Az coordinates.



Facts? Sure ... NexStar v4.xx allows user objects to be added (and not just those already in the db), they can also be land objects. You still can't however load an ephemeris to calculate the motion of a moving object.


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3026258 - 04/05/09 05:58 PM

Dave,
The Gemini is not so much hard as not as intuitive as the CGE Pro HC. The Gemini does do the job well though if you put in the time to learn it. A couple brews might slow the learning curve.

Phil


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LLEEGE
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3026363 - 04/05/09 06:44 PM

I've never used Gemini but I have owned a few different brands and I gotta say the AP system is probably the best I've used as far as ease of use.

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RAKing
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3026376 - 04/05/09 06:53 PM

Quote:

The Gemini is not so much hard as not as intuitive as the CGE Pro HC. The Gemini does do the job well though if you put in the time to learn it. A couple brews might slow the learning curve.




I'm not so sure. I think a couple might help.

Dave, The Gemini only has five buttons on the face that you normally use to navigate through all the various menus and submenus, etc. It may sound tedious to be pushing the same button several times, but it works quite well once you get the hang of it. No, you can't just punch in something like 2392 directly from a larger keypad - but sometimes it's much easier for me to find the right button out of five choices and navigate to where I want to go.

Plus, since you are permanently mounted, you will soon develop a killer model of the sky like Bobby's and that will save you a lot of time.

Enjoy. I hope to see you guys at NEAF.

Ron


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Strgazr27

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3026488 - 04/05/09 08:17 PM

The latest version of Nexstar does allow for user uploads. In my sitaution this has been a moot point as I run the scopes from TheSky. I think 99% of those of us who own a GEM are not really concerned about AltAz use.

As for those with C14's needing to worry about it I have to disagree. Many of us with Roll-off's have side walls and piers built for a much more compact mount. I'd like to be able to open the roof of my roll off without it hitting the mount based on measurements, the CGEPro is significantly taller than most mounts available. It's also nice to have my OTA's not sitting up in the wind or light from the neighbors or my house. When the 10" is finished or with the 130 on it, the OTA's are going to be much higher up than I'd like.

CS's


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Strgazr27

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3026493 - 04/05/09 08:19 PM

Quote:

I've never used Gemini but I have owned a few different brands and I gotta say the AP system is probably the best I've used as far as ease of use.




No doubt Luke and the HC'er is a work of art. I would love to have a HC'er tha looked, felt and performed like the AP I was priviledged to try 1 night.


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Alph
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3027015 - 04/06/09 02:58 AM

Quote:


The latest version of Nexstar does allow for user uploads



You got that one wrong too. Read my lips. You can't upload user data (NOT firmware) to the Nexstar controller. How could you get confused about it?


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LLEEGE
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3027419 - 04/06/09 10:31 AM

Quote:


Also what mount around $5K that will take around the 90 - 100# capacity does Meade make? The topic is about GEM mounts in this class. Not Alt/AZ.

Phil


I think he is talking about AL/AZ coordinates, not mount types.

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DaveJ
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3027434 - 04/06/09 10:42 AM

Quote:

You got that one wrong too. Read my lips. You can't upload user data (NOT firmware) to the Nexstar controller. How could you get confused about it?




You know, Alph...if there are ten ways to express a thought, you'll always pick the most offensive of the ten. Lighten up, OK?


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Alph
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: DaveJ]
      #3027503 - 04/06/09 11:16 AM

Quote:

f there are ten ways to express a thought, you'll always pick the most offensive of the ten.



Sorry about that. I did not mean to sound offensive. I just get frustrated when people don't read carefully to what they are responding.


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3028079 - 04/06/09 03:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

f there are ten ways to express a thought, you'll always pick the most offensive of the ten.



Sorry about that. I did not mean to sound offensive. I just get frustrated when people don't read carefully to what they are responding.



You obviously don't read what a thread is called either. You went off on a Meade HC rant when no-one but you had mentioned one. We were discussing the CGE Pro and the MI-250. Maybe a little of your own advice would be useful?

Phil


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Strgazr27

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Alph]
      #3028468 - 04/06/09 06:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

f there are ten ways to express a thought, you'll always pick the most offensive of the ten.



Sorry about that. I did not mean to sound offensive. I just get frustrated when people don't read carefully to what they are responding.




Actually I did read what you had written. As Mods we tend to read things 2 and 3 times just to make sure. I misunderstood what you were getting at, along with having thought I read that one of the new features of the latest version of software allowed for it. On that note I was mistaken. There does tend to be a trend in most of your posts though. Just an observation.

Edited by Strgazr27 (04/06/09 07:05 PM)


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Strgazr27

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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3028475 - 04/06/09 06:59 PM

Phil,

Could you do me one more favor and take a measurement from the bottom of the electronics pier to the top of the saddle with the RA axis horizontal/parallel to the ground. I know it's a bunch of questions but if I need to/decide to cut the pier I want to do it so it's ready to go when the mount gets home. 31" is too tall with the RA axis pointed North but it may be doable if I park the scope with the RA in a horizontal position and OTA's level.

I just measured the 31" and MAN is that thing tall! My G11 with the pier adapter is under 23"......

Thanks a bunch!

Edited by Strgazr27 (04/06/09 07:02 PM)


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3029204 - 04/07/09 05:47 AM

Will do tonight when I get home from work.

Phil


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binonut
journeyman


Reged: 12/10/08

Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3029265 - 04/07/09 07:09 AM

I did not wont to start a new thread.So Im posting here. I am also thinking of getting the CGE pro mount.Im planning of puting a 203 F/9 achromat refractor on it for visual work.What do you think, can the CGE pro hold the scope??
I have seen people using the CGE with that refractor.


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: binonut]
      #3029267 - 04/07/09 07:13 AM

Firstly, welcome to CN, binonut...

I would think that the CGE Pro would have NO problem with that scope... obviously with it's length you're going to want to be really careful with the balance... but weight wise should not be a big issue...

I had 55# on my CGE with no issues, so that's one reference for you...

again, welcome to CN!

clear enough skies


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: binonut]
      #3030365 - 04/07/09 05:29 PM

If you can run it on a CGE then the CGE Pro will handle it with no problem. The Pro is built like a tank.

Phil


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Phil Cowell
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Re: CGE Pro coming home with me from NEAF new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3030375 - 04/07/09 05:33 PM

Quote:

Phil,

Could you do me one more favor and take a measurement from the bottom of the electronics pier to the top of the saddle with the RA axis horizontal/parallel to the ground. I know it's a bunch of questions but if I need to/decide to cut the pier I want to do it so it's ready to go when the mount gets home. 31" is too tall with the RA axis pointed North but it may be doable if I park the scope with the RA in a horizontal position and OTA's level.

I just measured the 31" and MAN is that thing tall! My G11 with the pier adapter is under 23"......

Thanks a bunch!



Just measured and I get 28" so 5" difference. Thats at a 42 degree lat setting.

Phil


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Strgazr27

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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Phil Cowell]
      #3030821 - 04/07/09 09:36 PM

Phil,

Thanks for taking all the measurements for me but it looks like unless I want to lop about 8" off the top of my pier the Pro isn't going to happen. Although I love the design I think Celestron REALLY dropped the ball when it came to designing the mount from a height perspective. Seems they targeted those with Large SCT's and refractors for visual use almost. Why make the mount so tall?

I'm going to sleep on it for a few days. I can rent a Diamond Blade Concrete chainsaw for $285 and be done in about 5 minutes but I'm wondering if it would be worth the hassle. Dust would not be an issue as it's a wet saw but there is still a lot of work to be done after that. Would it all be worth it?

Anybody with an opinion


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3030861 - 04/07/09 09:55 PM

Quote:

Phil,

Thanks for taking all the measurements for me but it looks like unless I want to lop about 8" off the top of my pier the Pro isn't going to happen. Although I love the design I think Celestron REALLY dropped the ball when it came to designing the mount from a height perspective. Seems they targeted those with Large SCT's and refractors for visual use almost. Why make the mount so tall?




It would have worked perfectly for me; my pier was originally installed during my wedgemounted fork days. I always had to add extensions to get the German EQ mounts up high enough. I was planning to buy a Pro but I tripped over an NJP I couldn't pass up. I could still do an evaluation of a Pro if one becomes available for that.


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LLEEGE
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #3030872 - 04/07/09 10:01 PM

Bummer. When it comes time for my pier, I will go with steel. It will be a lot easier to adjust if ever needed. (Not that I plan on ever buying another mount )

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canadiens
super member


Reged: 09/07/07

Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3030962 - 04/07/09 10:35 PM

Perhaps you could cut off your corner posts and jack the observatory up and then with 2 2"*10" on top of the corner posts to achieve a new floor height with steel plates on either side to fasten the new joists to your original corner posts. If your floor where your pier is screwed down you could remove it to get at the supports underneath the obs.You would need to make new supports for the roll off or closing the roof would be an uphill battle. . Maybe issues of power and com wires might prevent this alternative. Just a thought,
Mike


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3031018 - 04/07/09 11:07 PM

Quote:


Anybody with an opinion




You know what mine is! You've been there. "this is your conscience speaking: Save your astrobucks and get the mount you REALLY want".

David


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Phil Cowell
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Reged: 05/24/07

Loc: Southern Tier NY
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3031285 - 04/08/09 02:51 AM

Quote:


Would it all be worth it?

Anybody with an opinion




For me it would be. It's a great mount.
Phil


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Spoonsize
DURHAM 157494
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Reged: 08/27/04

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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3031521 - 04/08/09 07:57 AM

Quote:

Phil,
I can rent a Diamond Blade Concrete chainsaw for $285 and be done in about 5 minutes but I'm wondering if it would be worth the hassle. Dust would not be an issue as it's a wet saw but there is still a lot of work to be done after that. Would it all be worth it?

Anybody with an opinion




Opinion?....Yup....It don't make no never mind how you cut the top off, it will be one of the messiest/dirtiest/hardest to clean messes you've ever had to clean.

Jacking up the obs, as mentioned earlier, is a GOOD option.


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RAKing
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Reged: 12/28/07

Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3031556 - 04/08/09 08:24 AM

Quote:

I'm going to sleep on it for a few days.




That's your best option right now. Sleep on it; think about it.

There is no need to rush into this. I'm sure Mike is offering you a great price, but the CGE Pro is not a limited edition or one off item. You have at least until NEAF to dream up a plan.

I worked in concrete construction and I don't care how wet that saw is - it will be a messy job as mentioned above. But if you do it right, you will only have to do it once.

I'll see you at NEAF.

Ron


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Strgazr27

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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Spoonsize]
      #3031564 - 04/08/09 08:29 AM

Steve,

Jacking the Obs. is out of the question as I would than have to raise the roll off track section. I could do this by just laying down another row of 4X4 but the work, in the end is more than cleaning up the mess.


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EddWen
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Reged: 04/26/08

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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3031949 - 04/08/09 12:21 PM

For future reference regarding pier design.

I have several different set-ups now, and not knowing what will come in the future, here is how I designed my pier.

post #2778252

My height requirement is a comfortable eyepiece height for visual viewing. The lowest position, no extension tube, is set for my NexStar 11 in alt-az mode used when I'm using a roll-around chair. The extension shown in the picture is sized for the A-P 1200 with refractor.

Others have done similar with welded steel piers of varying height on the concrete base. I think my version has more flexibility.


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3032094 - 04/08/09 01:32 PM

Bobby... I say "just do it"... get some plastic, a bunch of duct tape, a few beers and setup to do the "sawzall" thing to that pier... rent the tool... cut away... and done...

here's why...

if you DON'T do it, even though you were fully prepared to spend the $5K on it... well, then...

you'll forever regret not buying back your old MI-250 for only slightly more money (especially since you would NOT have had to cut the pier)...

I know it's "twisted logic"; but if you really were ready to drop $5K on the CGE-Pro... well then, you were also really ready to "move on" from the G11, right? And you'd made that emotional and financial decision...

And, frankly, where ELSE are you going to move on TO from a G11?

Everything else is more like $7K, setup... (or more)... (Mach1, MI-250), or way more (AP900, EM400, etc...)

One other thought: since you're "cutting anyways" why not cut it off ALL the way down, then drill mounting holes into what's left, and then get a steel pier that can be "modularized" over time, using bolts...? It's the same amount of pier destruction/re-construction work/mess... Though it does involve buying/building some type of steel pier...

That way, your tendency to change mounts a lot (yep - we've noticed!) can more easily be accommodated in the future.

I just thought (from going back and re-reading your posts on this thread and others) that you are REALLY ready to "move back up"...

Ah, the joys...

clear enough skies


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Strgazr27

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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3033673 - 04/09/09 08:53 AM

I think I came up with a solution The Chainsaw is out as they want $85 to rent the saw, $25 for the water pump and.........$700 FOR THE CHAIN!

What I am going to do is grab the electric jackhammer from work. Cover everything with plastic. Hammer away about 18" of the top of the pier. Than I'm going to drill 1" holes around the existing pier, cover it with a 14" sonotube and fill that with concrete. I';; bring it up to the height I need with new J-bolts using my existing pier plate to locate the bolts. This should tie the 2 together and create a nice finished look when I pull the new sonotube off.

Any thoughts why this wouldn't work?


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bdjeep
sage


Reged: 01/29/07

Loc: Bolton, MA
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3033804 - 04/09/09 10:12 AM

Wow...that's a lot of money to rent a saw.

I'd say you're in for a long day with the jackhammer. I've used those electric ones before, and it's a very slow process. They're not really precision instruments, hard to aim and tend to drift around an awful lot. Perhaps you have access to a better one then I did, or maybe you've got a whole lot more experience running one.

How about drilling a number of holes with a masonry bit followed by a few well placed blows with a 20 lb. sledge hammer? Depending on the amount of re-bar you have in that thing, it might break it up enough to knock the height down.


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LLEEGE
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3033811 - 04/09/09 10:14 AM

I assume you will be keeping the existing rebar in tact. If so, you should be fine. I wouldn't bother even drilling holes to tie it in. I also assume the 14" sonotube is larger then the existing pier. That will give a nice finished look.

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RAKing
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3034036 - 04/09/09 12:05 PM

Quote:

I also assume the 14" sonotube is larger then the existing pier. That will give a nice finished look.




I used to do underwater bridge construction. If that new 14 inch sonotube is bigger than your existing pier, you should take the time to scrub the outside surface of the existing pier and get it as clean as possible. The new concrete will bond better.

When we did it, we had to coat the existing stuff with epoxy (an incredible PITA underwater ) before we could pour the new stuff around it.

Best of luck.

Ron


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nofxrx
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: RAKing]
      #3034655 - 04/09/09 05:56 PM

Why not rent a gas powered 14" concrete saw.
I used to work for a rental co. and they go for like $65 a day and blades are only ~$8...a couple blades and a nice sledge should do the trick just fine.
I have worked in construction since I was 16! Concrete,while a PITA!!,is pretty easy to break apart with the right tools...
MOST of those saws come with a water hookup to keep the mess down.
Go to your local construction equipment rental place and tell them you need something like an Stihl 800series Concrete Saw(IIRC)..AND make sure you tell them what you are trying to do,THEY will show you what will work best...well,if they know thier job they will..

We have installed hundres of direct burial conrete poles(for shopping center parking lots),a lot of the times we would have to install those decorative bases on the ground around the pole,well those are only a pre-made foam form that you fill with concrete...any little shift and they will look crooked..a couple times we had to replace them(EXTREMELY picky owners..lol) we would simply cut DOWN(direction ) the pole and chisel it out sideways,OR better yet a hit in the right spot with a sledge would make VERY quick work of it if it is cut right to begin with...
Just take the saw and make sorta checkerboard cuts on the top and sides down to your height needed then chisel or sledge away...

need any more advice let me know..been doing this kinda PITA stuff pretty much half my life..MIGHT be why I have a bad back at 26..hmmm


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

Loc: StonyHill Observatory
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: nofxrx]
      #3034733 - 04/09/09 06:54 PM

Brent,

Andy has a neighbor with a 14" concrete saw and that looks like what I will be using. I figure a cut around the circumference followed by a good shot with a 20lb sledge should snap it off. I can than chisel down the middle unless I can cut all the way through all the way around. My only concern is a compromise in strength as the "New" tube will be bonded to the old pier and not really structurally part of it. I was contemplating drilling a series of 1" holes into the existing pier at a 45 degree angle so that the new pour would fill these up and help anchor the old pier to the new outer "Sleeve" so to speak. Any other ideas or would this help?

I hear ya on the bad back. I did wood floor refinishing and installation for 12 years.


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nofxrx
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3034938 - 04/09/09 09:06 PM

Hey Bobby,
FIRST OFF,do NOT jack up the OBS...sorry to all who have mentioned that but..not a great idea..MAINLY,because it will NOT be easy unless you own a couple of very good jacks and set them up properly and make sure the entire thing is level(I know thats not CRITICAL,but to me,IT would be..)..second because it will be a BIGGER PITA,trust me...and thats not even factoring in the rolloff problem...
YES,Conrete is VERY messy making/pouring/leveling or whatever else you are doing with it...AND it is EVEN messier to tear down..UNLESS you do it RIGHT AND have a water hookup on the saw..OR at least someone to hold a hose and spray directly behind the saw..THAT alone will turn a ton of dust,that will make the neighbors think you have a fire or something going on,down to a sloppy mess easily cleanable with a GOOD shopvac..IMPO,best option is to simply cut to height and add new pier adapter connections..
Back to advice..Bobby,
I am not sure if I missed it somewhere,what is the diameter of your pier now?And what kind of Rebar system is in there?
If it is a cage type (ring type rebar tied to standard rebar down the length of the tube..)then you will have to cut at least through all the rebar..
If it is simply a couple of rebars going down the tube(some tie thier all thread or J-bolts to it as well..)
then you will STILL have to cut past the Rebar
NOW,onto things you dont already know
If the saw does not go through all the way around(i.e.MAX depth on a 14" saw is somewhere around 6-1/2" maybe a hair more..)
I would definately score the concrete all the way around..maybe 3" deep,or more but you will eat up blades the more you cut,but will make the rest of the job much easier..
After scoring,take the saw at ~45deg angle DOWN into the pier attempting to reach the original "scoring level"..basically like how you would take down a tree(if you have ever done that...lol)...
The purpose is to create a place for the concrete to"give".
After scoring and cutting your angle go to opposite side and give it a couple of good whacks with a sledge...this SHOULD do it..aftre the top is gone:
Most you should have to do is some more cutting/chiseling to get a fairly flat surface..

Now,here is my main concern..
Why are you cutting DOWN,to build BACK up..?
I am sorry as apperantly I have missed something somewhere..

If it is to simply add a new "pier hardware" into fresh concrete..then I may have a solution for you...

I see this used ALL the time by Masons who need to add more concrete to an existing structure..i.e.,my company is currently building our 32nd Wallgreens.After the initial Slab is done and the building is going up they still have to level around the front and build the entranceway "sidewalk"..the do this by drilling horizontally into the existing slab and doing:
There is an epoxy(commercial grade of course) that is in a caulk tube,I dont know if a place like Home Depot will carry it or not..check with your local supply wharehouses(here in FL,we have places like:Hughes,HD-Supply,GreyBar etc..) for it..I am SURE it is not cheap like a tube of silicon is..
You drill holes as deep as you need,and then clean them..a good shop vac with maybe a piece of flexible tubing duct taped to the end(like "sealtight",its a flexible electrical conduit used outdoors for things like pumps,water main sensors,etc.),this will give you a "smaller" hose to get into your holes and get as much sediment out..and THEN pouring full of water to allow sediments to flow out..this will give you a clean bonding surface.
FILL with epoxy and put you Rebar(OR you could EVEN use All-thread or whatever you are planning to use to adapt to your pier top plate...I would put bolts on the allthread all down the allthread to give it that EXTRA secureness when the epoxy is finished curing..!!)
This stuff is NOT your normal epoxy..TRUST me.If it is good enough to suppor walls and slabs,it will be MORE than sufficient enough for what we would need it for..

This way,you could merely cut your pier to your desired height and just "sink" you new materials into the top..it will cut your workload in half as you will not have to design your new structure,mix and pour your new concrete..IMHO,worth it...

You will want to get the top fairly flat,but that would be merely for cosmetic purposes..or you could still drill a couple of more smaller holes,buy a bag of mortar mix,and simply "shape" a new top..you wrap the tube with flashing material at an inch or whatever your new height will be,that will give you your level and you simply fill to the top and trowel the top to smooth it out..

Your idea of drilling holes is a GREAT idea and is exactly what needs to be done to support your new structure.I just dont understand why you are going about this,this way...please let me know,I am very curious as to what you are trying to accomplish..

Thanks,
Brent

BTW,I STRONGLY suggest lining your walls in painters plastic..this will keep the "mess" from getting your walls,which might not be so easy to clean up..


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BowmoremanModerator
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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: nofxrx]
      #3034993 - 04/09/09 09:34 PM

Good details, Brent...

Bobby's challenge, in a nutshell, is this:

His current concrete pier is about 10-12" too tall for the next mount he wants to use... hence the radical "shortening measures" being discussed...

My though was: if shortening anyways (i.e. hassle, work, mess) why not shorten all the way down and then use a modular steel pier (so that in the future - for NEXT mounts - he can just bolt/unbolt as desired and needed...

Your info was quite informative, though... (glad I'm "steel")

clear enough skies


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nofxrx
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Bowmoreman]
      #3035136 - 04/09/09 10:49 PM

LOL Dave,
I was unaware he was switching to the "steel" side

If that is the case,I would still strongly advise using the epoxy to anchor your bolts(RedHeads,there are VERY good concrete anchors and come in many sizes..) to the concrete.
Just make a template for your new pier,drill,clean,fill with epoxy,sink RedHeads in,set pier on top,bolt down onto RedHeads..DONE..thats only...ohh,7,8 steps..AFTER you cut the BEAST down...LOL..


I personally did not have any luck with a steel pier,it was a bit small(IIRC,~5.5" in diameter,~42"tall,hollow,filled with sand..olted to concrete with J-bolts sunk into concrete while still wet..

My new Pier....looks like you could launch the shuttle off of it..OR,put an ME with a 14,5"RCOS...HA,like the wife would EVER let that happen...and that is one setup you cant hide,lol...actually,EVERYthing I have tried to hide from my wife she always finds out about it...TOO good of a memory..


Have fun,and clear skies..
Brent


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Strgazr27

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Reged: 10/04/04

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Re: Bad News :( new [Re: nofxrx]
      #3035270 - 04/10/09 12:24 AM

Brent,

Awesome info and THANKS! Here is the deal......Before I found out that Andy (Buzzer) good get me a concrete saw I was going to jackhammer the pier into submission Lol. Actually I was going to chip off the 16" I need to come down. This would have left a ragged top making drilling 3 new bolt holes accurately almost impossible. Mt way around this was to encase the old pier with a larger sonotube. This would allow me to make a new flat top I could set new bolts into and eliminate the ragged look. If the saw works as planned than I shouldn't need to do this. I can do as you say. Drill 3 new 1" holes, fill them with the epoxy and insert 3 new 3/4" plate bolts using my existing plate to keep them aligned. Looks like it may be this weekends project if I can get some help. How long should I let the epoxy cure before setting the monster in place? The Mount weighs in at 75lbs.

Thanks again for all the info


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nofxrx
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Reged: 07/12/05

Loc: Palm Bay,Florida
Re: Bad News :( new [Re: Strgazr27]
      #3035356 - 04/10/09 01:40 AM

Hmm,I wouldnt think that it would not need more than 24 hours...but check these out..

A quick search turned up this:
http://www.superior-industries.com/anchor_bond_700_product_185.html
Looks like its EXACTLY what you need,but is a bit pricey..too bad....it looks to be the right stuff to hold a set of anchor bolts for the mount..LOTS of tensile strength!!

On the bit cheaper side you have something like this:
http://www.simpsonanchors.com/Catalog/adhesives/set/index.html
This looks to be just as good...AND,is available at HOME DEPOT!!!!!
I would definately call or go and check this stuff out..it looks to be the ticket..the site has installation instructions and the whole bit!
http://www.simpsonanchors.com/catalog/adhesives/adhesive_anchoring_install.html

I think we might have a winner.

Good luck,Bobby!!!
Hey,did you get my message earlier?about the filter?I am just worried it might be "lost in translation" or something..just paranoud is all


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