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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
ES14 v.s. Ethos 13
      #3077082 - 04/30/09 01:45 PM

Hi, all.

Daniel forwarded me URL to his writeups about ES14 and Ethos 13.

Here you go...
http://danielmounsey.com/?p=40

Enjoy.

Tammy


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3077098 - 04/30/09 01:52 PM

Tammy, Do you have a link to the 5" refractor shoot-out as well?

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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: t.r.]
      #3077121 - 04/30/09 02:03 PM

No, I don't.

I am not sure he finished writing it
I missed Tuesday star party so I didn't have a chance to ask.

Tammy


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

*****

Reged: 02/26/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3077128 - 04/30/09 02:07 PM

Thanks Tammy, that was an interesting read.

A few things I happened to notice:

In one sentence Daniel apparently equates field flatness with pincushion, rather than a curved field. This is a rather curious misstatement. I think he may want to either rephrase or brush up on his understanding of rectilinear distortion a bit. I agree that rectilinear distortion is much easier to spot in the daytime because of the preponderance of straight line daytime targets - trees, cars, fences, etc, but I'm not aware of any method by which it would actually be reduced at night - however, it would be far, far less noticeable.

As an aside while checking his statement on pincushion in the ES14 I'll note that I felt there was a more pincushion in the ES than the Ethos (so much that it got me wondering just how similar or dissimilar the designs actually are), but I was looking through it during the day at NEAF and I didn't have an Ethos immediately at hand.

I also think he's misidentifying kidney beaning. He might want to take a closer look at the difference between spherical aberration of the exit pupil and blackouts caused by improper eye placement. Given the fact that he's not complained about kidney beaning during the day, I suspect he's actually vignetting the exit pupil by improper eye placement.

Another thing I read with interest was, as Daniel noted, this is still a production sample, not an actual shipped product. I've seen areas where the two ultimately differed in significant ways (both good and bad). It will be interesting to see if there are any differences in the first production batch.

Finally, I also think he should have tested them in fast flat field scopes - something like the NP127, NP101 or an FSQ - from a design standpoint those present, quite possibly the cleanest fields to the focal plane of any scope around and are the best way to separate scope aberrations from eyepiece aberrations. In determining field curvature for example, it could be critical. One eyepiece may have the same direction of curvature as the telescope and have an additive effect, and the other may curve against the telescope's field (subtractive) and actually serve to help correct it.

Overall, an entertaining read - thank you for posting it on the forums, and thanks to Daniel for writing it up. I'm looking forward to hearing more reports from other observers and actually seeing one myself at some point.

T


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t.r.
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3077131 - 04/30/09 02:08 PM

Thanks, and keep us informed on that...Good read on the ES14!

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Tom TrusockAdministrator

*****

Reged: 02/26/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: t.r.]
      #3077141 - 04/30/09 02:12 PM

I was also wondering - did he say how many nights he compared them over? I think I missed that.

And BTW - is there an actual way to leave comments about the post over on his blog? I saw something that said "Leave a comment", but couldn't find an actual way to do it.

I'm feeling a bit old and slow today.


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Jim7728
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/10/05

Loc: Stoop Landing Observatory, NYC
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3077144 - 04/30/09 02:14 PM

Great review!
Going on memory when I attended NEAF, I thought the ES14 was a little more sensitive to eye placement for daytime viewing than the 13mm Ethos. YMMV.

That said, if I did not already own a 13mm Ethos, I'd maybe buying the 14ES.

Edited by Jim7728 (04/30/09 02:19 PM)


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mandotrout
sage
*****

Reged: 01/25/09

Loc: Montana, USA
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3077177 - 04/30/09 02:27 PM

Can you actually BUY an ES ep now, or are they still just "coming soon"?

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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
*****

Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Jim7728]
      #3077180 - 04/30/09 02:29 PM

Great review. If I only had $400 and if I needed a 14 MM. Now if ES comes out with 8 to 10 MM EP and I can convice the CFO that this is a need, I am getting one.

BTW Anyone want to take bets on how long it will take this post to get locked?


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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #3077182 - 04/30/09 02:29 PM

Quote:

BTW - is there an actual way to leave comments about the post over on his blog? I saw something that said "Leave a comment", but couldn't find an actual way to do it.




Hi Tom,

I was able to leave comment. You might want to try again
You need to fill name and email address to post, I think.

Tammy


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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
*****

Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Jim7728]
      #3077185 - 04/30/09 02:30 PM

Quote:

Great review!
Going on memory when I attended NEAF, I thought the ES14 was a little more sensitive to eye placement for daytime viewing than the 13mm Ethos. YMMV.

That said, if I did not already own a 13mm Ethos, I'd maybe buying the 14ES.




I think it was sensitive because they kept dunking it and not cleaning it correclty.


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

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Reged: 02/26/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #3077186 - 04/30/09 02:31 PM

Thanks Tammy, I'll look again.



I'm blind, it's at the bottom of the article, big as day.

T

Edited by Tom Trusock (04/30/09 02:34 PM)


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

*****

Reged: 02/26/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #3077199 - 04/30/09 02:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Great review!
Going on memory when I attended NEAF, I thought the ES14 was a little more sensitive to eye placement for daytime viewing than the 13mm Ethos. YMMV.

That said, if I did not already own a 13mm Ethos, I'd maybe buying the 14ES.




I think it was sensitive because they kept dunking it and not cleaning it correclty.




That might well explain a few other things, but I'm not sure how it would affect sensitivity to eye placement.

Edited by Tom Trusock (04/30/09 04:50 PM)


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feng
journeyman


Reged: 03/19/09

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #3077434 - 04/30/09 04:49 PM

“While viewing the Moon in either telescope, I did notice a small reflection caused by light reflecting off my own eyes on top of the 14mm ES that was not at all visible while using the 13mm Ethos.”

I can see the same reflection on my 3.5t6 while viewing the moon.


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zjc26138
Loved By All
*****

Reged: 02/24/05

Loc: Mingo Junction, Ohio
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: feng]
      #3077502 - 04/30/09 05:28 PM

Great review Daniel, and thanks for posting it Tammy!

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Teal'c
Indeed
*****

Reged: 08/02/05

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: zjc26138]
      #3077526 - 04/30/09 05:42 PM

What the heck...for $399.00, I got on the list a while ago.

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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
*****

Reged: 10/16/04

Loc: N.E. Ohio
Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Teal'c]
      #3077566 - 04/30/09 06:03 PM

Daniel, that was a fantastic review! It's got me drooling for a 14mm ES. The only thing holding me back from purchasing one is my support for my three children (OK, young adults) in college at the same time.

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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Celestron
*****

Reged: 06/12/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #3078090 - 04/30/09 10:59 PM

Tom,

I agree with your statement. Field curvature usually causes the issues discussed rather than pincushion and I added some clarification regarding my statement "per your comments", so there were less misunderstandings. The problem is that when I moved the eyepiece left and right to check for either aberration, there was unquestionably a tad more pincushion in the 13 Ethos and so it's difficult to say for sure what it could be. I do agree with you though and was totally baffled and although what I said may not make sense, not everything may pan out the way the books say they should. I've seen other instances where the technical stats didn't add up either because of how certain eyepieces behave in different scopes. Yes, you can see rectilinear at night if you know what to look for but there's just nothing straight to relate it to while viewing stars. I'll explain my issue regarding kidney bean shortly.

Sorry so late Tom, Here are some comments from Mike Hosea's essay below.

"There's also a condition called "spherical aberration of the exit pupil", which isn't really spherical aberration at all. I guess it's just that the cross-sectional diagrams you might draw to show it are reminiscent of diagrams depicting longitudinal spherical aberration from a spherical mirror. When this problem is present it can be difficult to see the edge of field without losing some of the middle of the field in a kidney bean shaped blackout area. When you pull back a little the center is then clean, but the edges can't be seen because the eye isn't close enough to the eyepiece. I hasten to add that just because you have some problems with blackouts doesn't mean there is spherical aberration of the exit pupil. In most cases you simply need to take the care to center the eye over the exit pupil. This is especially true when there is an abundance of eye relief. Furthermore, even if there is some spherical aberration of the exit pupil, it isn't a sharpness issue, and it isn't any problem at all if you don't have any problem avoiding blackouts with your normal usage. Often it is only an obtrusive problem for daytime, terrestrial and lunar observation. The discussion above has pretty much assumed that the telescope per se is not contributing anything in the way of aberrations"

Edited by Daniel Mounsey (05/01/09 09:30 AM)


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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Celestron
*****

Reged: 06/12/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Lawrence Sayre]
      #3078099 - 04/30/09 11:06 PM

Quote:

Daniel, that was a fantastic review! It's got me drooling for a 14mm ES. The only thing holding me back from purchasing one is my support for my three children (OK, young adults) in college at the same time.




Lawrence, thank you. I also got your PM and I will check the focus and get back to you. I really liked the question you raised about where the focus point is for each eyepiece and I completely forgot to add that to my review. I will be sure to check that. There's always something to learn about enhancing a review.


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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Celestron
*****

Reged: 06/12/02

Re: ES14 v.s. Ethos 13 new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #3078115 - 04/30/09 11:18 PM

Quote:

I was also wondering - did he say how many nights he compared them over? I think I missed that.

And BTW - is there an actual way to leave comments about the post over on his blog? I saw something that said "Leave a comment", but couldn't find an actual way to do it.

I'm feeling a bit old and slow today.




We did two sessions with two prototypes and another session with the production model. Yes, you can leave a comment at the bottom of each review.


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