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Equipment Discussions >> ATM, Optics and DIY Forum

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Anonymous
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Am I Nuts??? new
      #307446 - 01/11/05 06:14 PM

Background: Newbie. I bought a celestron explorascope (80mm reflector) for my daughter for christmas. After taking it apart to fix the tripod mount, I thought to myself "Hey, it can't be that hard to build a telescope..."

Of course, I realize that this is going to be a lot more work (and expense) than I thought, but hey, that never stopped me before...

So, here I am. I've decided that for my first scope, I am going to go with a 4.5" F8 mirror. Primarily, I want something portable, since I will probably walk to a local park (maybe a block away) with it for my observing.

I've done some searching on the internet and have found lots of plans, and ideas. I will probably work on this scope a little bit at a time, so it will take me a while. I will purchase a mirror set, since I don't think I have the ability to grind my own mirror yet.

First step: Tube. It seems that Sonotube (and similar) is only availble in 8" sizes or larger, but I want a 6" tube. After doing some searching, I found that McMaster Carr sells a 6", 4.5ft length of PVC tube for $13, so I went ahead and purchased one. This is a non-schedule PVC tube, so hopefully it should be lighter than the typical schedule 40 PVC.

Next step: I think next I am going to want to design the mirror holder. Most of the plans have you cut a couple circles out of plywood, and assemble with bolts. Typically the mirror is glued to one of the circles, and the bolts allow you to adjust collumation. What I am wondering is if there are any alternatives. For instance, rather than cutting the mirror holders out of plywood, can I cast something out of plastic/epoxy? I.e., a circle maybe 1/2 inch thick made from liquid epoxy. Assuming this is strong enough, should be relatively easy to do. Is this possible, or should I just go the traditional route?

Other steps: Spider. Haven't really thought too much about this yet. I have seen several designs, and also pre-made spiders that you can buy. If possible, I would like to make one myself rather than buying, but as a last resort, I could just buy one.

Other Steps: Base. This is going to be a doozy. I want to keep this scope lightweight. I have seen one base that uses a larger size PVC tube as the base of the scope. Another interesting idea is a portaball type of mount, but that may be too complex for me at this point. Anthing else I can do to keep this lightweight? Maybe I should just mount it to a simple Alt-Az tripod?

Other Steps: Focuser. This I think I will purchase. Probably start with a 1.25" Rack and Pinion focuser. I noticed Orion sells one for $25 which isn't too bad. Would I want something more complex like a helical focuser, or a all-metal one on this size of a scope?

That's it for now. I'm sure I'll have tons more questions as I progress further into this project.

I'd appreciate any advice anybody may have, as this is the first time I am attempting something like this, and I am probably in over my head.

I've done some searching on the internet, and found the ATM archives. I also found the Newt program and think that that will help me in the design. I have several plans (one is specifically for a 4.5" scope, others are for larger scopes, but the same principles apply, I believe).

Thanks!


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MMICKELSAdministrator
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Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 25192
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: ]
      #307464 - 01/11/05 06:26 PM

No your not nuts! Look at Royces website for some ideas for your spider. www.rfroyce.com He's written a few atm related articles you might want to read too.

--------------------
Mark


"The only thing wrong with immortality is that it tends to go on forever."

Herb Caen






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Relativist
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Reged: 10/11/03
Posts: 3026
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: MMICKELS]
      #307561 - 01/11/05 08:02 PM

This is what your shooting for:

link

........Curtis

--------------------
.......Curtis


20mm T2 Nagler, 10mm SW 82degrees, 5-8 SW Zoom:
All of the above replaced with WO Binoviewers!!!
Siebert OCA 1.25x-3.5x
10" OPT Starhunter (flocked & upgraded focuser)
10x50 & 15x70 Celestron Bino's
2" 2x GSO Barlow


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Hammerbach
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 105
Loc: Hampton, VA
Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: Relativist]
      #307604 - 01/11/05 08:45 PM

Rather than plywood for a cell (mirror holder), I really like Lexan. available from your local glass supplier. Mine here was nice enought to just give me a couple of 3/8" thick scraps that did a nice job. It machines well and is fairly forgiving (not to be confused with plexiglass!)

--------------------
Making people sorry they asked since 1967


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Anonymous
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: Relativist]
      #307683 - 01/11/05 09:39 PM

Quote:

This is what your shooting for:

link

........Curtis




Yep, but somehow I get the feeling I will spend 2x as much and it may not be as portable. However, for me it will be the journey. I like the idea of being able to say "I made it myself".

Lexan. Hmmmm sounds interesting. I'll look into it.

Thanks.


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gazerjim
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Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7728
Loc: About where I thought I was......
Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: ]
      #307832 - 01/12/05 12:05 AM

If you told us you're first project was a 12" Ritchey Chretien with GOTO, I would say maybe.

Sounds interesting! And not all that hard.
Some thougts:
RE the main mirror mount: I would aim for a design that allows for circulation of air around the primary and even through the tube. A mirror this size will be easy to cool, but movement of air should be as little restricted as possible.
Contrast of views will be improved if you can coat the inside of the tube with a rough surface. Another thought: the inside surface could possibly be roughed up before spraying with some kind of rotary tool on a drill motor.
Assuming the primary is of good quality, don't skimp on the quality of the secondary. If all optics are top quality (as in at least .96 strehl) and thermal factors are controlled, a 4.5" relector should perform almost as well as a 4" APO. (some will probably disagree); I'm not sure what your aims are.
You may have to stiffen the eyepiece end of the PVC tube to offset the tension of the secondary vanes. Or, "freestanding" design be preferable.
A scaled down dobsonian type mount is probably the quickest route to portability and stability.

Wow, I'm finding it's so much easier to give advice that to actually get up and build something...

Your project is very "doable". Keep us posted with pictures and reports.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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MMICKELSAdministrator
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: gazerjim]
      #307869 - 01/12/05 12:59 AM

You may want to contact the Robert Ferguson Observatory. They had a program called "Striking Sparks" Where they made 4 or 5 inch scopes with a PVC tube for kids who won essay contests in school. I think their site is www.rfo.org

--------------------
Mark


"The only thing wrong with immortality is that it tends to go on forever."

Herb Caen






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Anonymous
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: MMICKELS]
      #308194 - 01/12/05 12:24 PM

Thanks for the Links.

Next Question: Where to obtain quality mirrors (at decent prices)?

I notice Orion has a 4.5" F8 Spherical mirror for $39 with the secondary for about $20 (depending on size).

Telescopes.com has a scopetronix 4.5" F8 Parabolic mirror for $36.95.

I gather that a parabolic mirror in theory should be better, but I've heard that for this size mirror, it really doesn't matter.

I've also seen some mirrors on Ebay for $9.95 (+$9.95 shipping), but I am guessing that they are probably junk.

Any other sources to consider?

Thanks.


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Tom L

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Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
Loc: Sunny Oregon
Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: ]
      #308506 - 01/12/05 06:48 PM

discovery mirrors. I think they have that size.

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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Anonymous
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: Tom L]
      #308530 - 01/12/05 07:09 PM

I checked discovery-telescopes.com and it looks like they only have 6" or larger...

I imagine most ATM people are tending to make larger scopes rather than smaller scopes.


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Tom L

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Reged: 01/07/04
Posts: 29817
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: ]
      #308685 - 01/12/05 09:09 PM

Sorry, I didn't have time to check when I posted that.

--------------------
Tom
Tele Vue 102mm f/8.6 on an EzTouch
Vixen 80mm f/5 A80SSWT on a grab-n-go mount


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gazerjim
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Re: Am I Nuts??? new [Re: Tom L]
      #308850 - 01/13/05 12:35 AM

Not sure, but I believe that any mirror with an f ratio less than about f/10 or even f/12 should be parabolic for best performance. A spherical primary would probably deliver decent images at lower magnifications, but the image would tend to "break down" at higher mags.
University Optics http://www.universityoptics.com/ lists 4" mirrors in either f/4 or f/10; don't know how good they are.

Jim

--------------------
Jim Fisher

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Henry J. Tillman


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Jeff Morgan
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Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1532
Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Am I Nuts??? [Re: ]
      #309174 - 01/13/05 11:17 AM

Quote:

Other Steps: Base. This is going to be a doozy. I want to keep this scope lightweight. I have seen one base that uses a larger size PVC tube as the base of the scope. Another interesting idea is a portaball type of mount, but that may be too complex for me at this point. Anthing else I can do to keep this lightweight? Maybe I should just mount it to a simple Alt-Az tripod?




Here is something I found that would be way-cool for a portable alt-az mount. It's actually a very old idea called a Sellers mount. It uses the tube itself as one of the structural members supported top and bottom. If your library carries back issues check these for details:

Scientific American November 1952
Sky & Tel August 1976

The general description is the top end has a bipod with a threaded screw and ball joint that attaches to the front end of the tube. By adjusting the length of the bipod and the screw you get altitude movement.

Two tubes (call them azimuth tubes) are attached via short struts to the bottom of the optical tube. They run down the length of the optical tube, but spread slightly at the bottom. They angle together towards the top, joining near the altitude bipod. On the bottom, the az tubes have small wheels. By rotating the either az tube, the scope moves in azimuth. For smooth operation the wheels rest on a small ground plank.

--------------------
Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making


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