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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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l1n1234
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Reged: 04/20/09
Posts: 10
How close is Canon IS image to mounted view?
      #3094428 - 05/09/09 12:30 PM

I picked up a Pentax 8x40 PCF WPII for $60 from a camera store going out of business and tried to use it handheld last night and the stars were so jittery and bothersome. I tried all the tips on this forum, laying on a lawn chair, bracing both arms, timing my breath, but still could not get a steady enough image.

I am thinking about getting the Canon 10x30IS, or 12x36IS II. Should I get the Fujinon, Nikon IS which may have more robust image stabilization? Anybody disappointed with the view from image stabilization? Should I just get a mount?

Lo Net


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KennyJ

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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: l1n1234]
      #3094537 - 05/09/09 01:47 PM

Lo Net ,

I don't think anyone here would doubt that a properly mounted binocular provides a steadier image than image stabilised binoculars , BUT -- and it IS a BIG but -- lifting out a tripod or mount of any description completely alters ( some might say altogether ruins ) the free and easy flexibility of being able to hand hold binoculars in any position chosen .

As for myself , as much as the jitters it's the aching of the arms that bothers me about hand - holding binoculars in a skyward direction for any length of time , which is why I prefer to fix up some kind of arrangement that allows the hands to be kept as low as the chest or stomach height with elbows resting against perhaps the arms of a chair and the binoculars attached , via tripod adaptor thread , to the top side of a 90 degree arm , up to about a foot long , like a shortened , hand - held monopod , if you will .

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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Mike Hosea
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: l1n1234]
      #3094604 - 05/09/09 02:29 PM

Quote:


I am thinking about getting the Canon 10x30IS, or 12x36IS II. Should I get the Fujinon, Nikon IS which may have more robust image stabilization? Anybody disappointed with the view from image stabilization? Should I just get a mount?





I don't know what Fujinon and Nikon have done with IS. None of their IS models ever struck me as being both attractively priced and large enough in aperture to be of much interest to me, and hopefully they work a lot better than they look, if you follow me. There's a pricey Zeiss with mechanical stabilization that I would bet is awesome, but I've never tried that, either.

Canon IS technology doesn't eliminate all motion like a mount. Rather, it eliminates the high frequency jitter. So, you have to get reasonably steady, i.e. so that the star is only dancing around within a relatively small circular area and then the IS will take out the jitter, i.e. stop the dancing. With practice it's like you press a button and then the view sort of floats around slightly. It gives you a large percentage of the advantages of a mount but certainly not all. With a mount there is (or should be) virtually no motion at all. With a fluid head and a crank to change the center post height you can have a pretty enjoyable session as long as you don't try to look too high up, because then you are fighting with the tripod for body position while the neck is in an awkward position. A parallelogram mount solves this nicely but requires a counterweight and adds more bulk to the trip outside. I find mounted binocular observing quite different from heading out with a pair of Canon IS binoculars. I tried my 15x50 Canons on my tripod, and it was better, but I really missed the freedom that Kenny mentioned, and I plan to do it again only on rare occasions.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: l1n1234]
      #3094656 - 05/09/09 02:58 PM

I--and I may be in the minority here--prefer a steady tripod mounted binocular because I like to have my hands free to sketch, take notes, hold one or more field guides (or star atlases), and/or sip a beverage. I do not have any IS binoculars because I do not see where they will add much to the way I observe.

Another issue to consider is the perspective of each individual binocular. If you travel on the IS path you are locked into a limited number of perspectives--or should I say locked out of a multitude of perspectives. Either way you do the math, IS binoculars come with limitations.

And as for binoculars on the trail--I take a monopod or lighten up (power down) and carry a binocular that I can comfortably hold without noticable shake.

There you have it.

--------------------
Bob
38°N


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Wes James
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3094705 - 05/09/09 03:24 PM

Well, I guess it's time to hear from the other side! I have 2 Canon IS binoculars- the 10x42L's and the 15x50's. I would consider them 2 of the last binoculars I'd ever part with. Obviously, Bob- as a sketcher, mounted binoculars are the best setup for you. Me, I simply love cruising the skies, and not being limited by a tripod or monopod.
I guess it all depends on what you want to do- and your style of viewing. Lo Net- If you could find anyone nearby who has a pair of them, it would be worth your while to at least take a glance through a pair and see how they work for you. They are the binocular I take with me whenever I travel, and I don't have to carry a monopod. To have 15x of handheld optics is wonderful, and man- when you push that button, and see the heavens just float there in front of your eyes- effortlessy- nothing can match it. Unless you have bino's mounted on a tripod- then you're limited. You can only view so high, and when you want to turn appreciably, you have to move the tripod.
Again, it all depends on your style of useage.

--------------------
Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL

Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O

"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers


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brocknroller
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: Wes James]
      #3094826 - 05/09/09 05:05 PM

Lo Net,

Sounds like you already know the machinations you have to go through to keep bins from following the bouncing ball.

I don't know if you've had a chance to read the bin stabilization solution I've been working on for the past three years (see my latest post on the thread "Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50 still best handheld?" on this forum).

Unfortunately, polling CN members on their experience with Canon IS bins won't tell you how you will adapt to them, but that's what happens, your brain either adapts or doesn't adapt to the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) movement of the images in IS bins.

You might find they are the greatest thing since Frito-Lay invented Doritos, or you might get nauseated from the "swimming" images (in which case, don't eat Doritos before observing).

Most likely, your experience will be mixed like Mike described above.

Nikon and Fuji put up better numbers in terms of correction angles, but I've read reports of objects "vibrating" in place instead of "swimming" around the field like Canons.

If you turn out to be Canon IS Tolerant (CIST), you still might need to brace yourself well in a reclining lawn chair with pillows under your arms to get those last bit of jitters down to a minimum.

Too bad you missed the deal last week on A-mart for a 10x30 IS for $250.

"Try before you buy" is the mantra of binoculars users, but that's even more important for Canon IS buyers since results vary from hand to hand and brain to brain.

If you also use bins for daytime observing, the 10x or 12x IS bins are worth trying since you will find them useful.

The 10x is more stable than the 12x, and it's cheaper, so it's a good place to start.

If you want one right away, you'll usually find the best prices at NYC camera dealers, but beware, a few are "slimy". Check their ratings.

If you can wait, you can probably pick one up on Astromart for under $300.

Also, Canon has a rebate offer of $50 off the less expensive models once a year. Not sure when they are going to run that, check with Canon USA.

If you have a rubber neck, a monopod might work for a 10x bin.

Here's the set up I have. Unfortunately, my neck is made of petrified oak, not rubber:
rubbernecking with monopods

As you can see, it takes some flexibility, which is why I took up yoga.

Failing CIST or a rubber neck, you might need to buy a 4-way-head parallel mount, which will give you six degrees of (Kevin Bacon) movement.
Unimount

I had one, and it worked great, but I felt if I had to drag all that equipment out with me, I might as well use my telescope.

If that happens, then you might want to try a SkyWindow:
Skywindow Bin Mount

If you are prone to "aperture fever" you might want to go for the Gold class mirror from the getgo. I found the standard mirror degraded the images in my 12x50 SE.

This is a very comfortable set up, but still needs a table to set it up on. However, a light card table will suffice.

The drawback with the Skywindow is that the images are reversed. Telescope observers are used to that, but they get a relatively small FOV in most telescopes.

It can be a bit unnerving to sweep the sky backwards. So again, it's something you have to try to find out if you like. I recommend mounting a laser pointer on it so you can find your way around the sky.

Good Luck!

Di L. Up

--------------------
B'rock, son of Grilka
Member of the House of Kozak
Klingon Poet-Warrior
----------------------------------------------
"The character of a Klingon poet-warrior is measured not only by the metal of his blade--but also by the mettle of his words."



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Alan French
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #3094852 - 05/09/09 05:24 PM

I have been using the 12x36 IS IIs for several years for birding, and I use them for some astronomy. We also have the 10x30s, which reside by the windows overlooking the bird feeders. I've also used my wife's 15x45s, which are an older model. If I am seated in a chair, or in a reclining lawn chair, the view is generally fixed with no slow roll. If I am tired, or standing, it sometimes has a slow roll, but I don't find that a bother nor does it seem to reduce the amount of detail visible.

As others have mentioned, some people don't find the IS binoculars to their liking. It would certainly be worth trying a pair for yourself.

Clear skies, Alan


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dvb
different Syndrome.
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Reged: 06/18/05
Posts: 3019
Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: Alan French]
      #3094937 - 05/09/09 06:46 PM

The 12x36IS as amazingly light, and grab them for looking up while standing with my scope.

They seem much lighter than the 15x50, which I prefer to use while reclining in a patio chair. Otherwise, although steady, they can literally be a pain in the neck.

I like the 10x30 for birds, as they focus much closer, They do have a decently wide view (6*).

The IS won't compensate for body sway, but it dos allow the varied positioning and quick free movement of the human head - can't be matched by any tripod head!

Edited by dvb (05/09/09 06:50 PM)


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CESDewar
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: dvb]
      #3095097 - 05/09/09 08:38 PM

Image Stabilization is definitely something to personally experience before making any judgements. Some people have a problem with it, but they appear to be in a small minority. The vast majority of people are amazed at how well it works.

The Canon binoculars have exceptional optics - don't underestimate the quality of these binoculars quite apart from image stabilization. They feature very flat fields of view and very good acuity. You will be hard pressed to find binoculars that would outperform them by any significant amount even setting aside the image-stabilization feature.

I have had the 18x50's now for some 3 years, and they are still my favorite viewing instrument of all - because of ease-of-use: I'm outside, no tripod, no fuss, no setup, and yet I have seen all 110 Messier objects and a vast number of NGC objects, with enough left over to keep me busy for a lifetime!

Tonight is a typical example - it was raining all day, but has just cleared - probably not for long and the seeing is probably awful and with the RH at 88% at 65° not enough to inspire me to set up a telescope, etc. etc., but I will take the Canon's out, if only for five minutes to "round up the usual suspects" and at least feel that I "saw" something!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
I add this comment very often when threads come up on the Canon IS line, but I'll add it (yet) again:

To get the best performance, turn the IS off, focus as well as you can (even though the stars are jumping around) and then engage the IS. If you do that, you will notice a significant reduction in the IS artifacts. Why this is, I'm not sure, but it may be that the logic is optimized as it's engaged, or that the adjustment mechanism does not perform well when the physical orientation of the binoculars has changed substantially.

--------------------



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Mike Hosea
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: brocknroller]
      #3095124 - 05/09/09 08:54 PM

Quote:


Most likely, your experience will be mixed like Mike described above.





...which is to say, I do love the IS feature on my Canon IS binoculars. It's fantastic. But how close is it to a mounted view is a rather complicated question. In some ways it's very close and in other not. The ways it isn't so close cut both ways. Overall I prefer using the IS to using a mount, but it's easy to understand why somebody else would take the opposite view.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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Mike Hosea
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: CESDewar]
      #3095134 - 05/09/09 09:00 PM

Quote:


The Canon binoculars have exceptional optics - don't underestimate the quality of these binoculars quite apart from image stabilization. They feature very flat fields of view and very good acuity.





Yes! I totally agree with this. With both the 10x30s and 15x50s, I really felt like I was getting the IS for free.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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dvb
different Syndrome.
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Reged: 06/18/05
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3095274 - 05/09/09 10:40 PM

Quote:


With both the 10x30s and 15x50s, I really felt like I was getting the IS for free.




Well put. These are great bins in their own right. IS is a bonus.

--------------------
"But seeing through a telescope is 50% vision and 50% imagination." - Chet Raymo

Skywatcher 10" f/4.7 Newt on Matilda
Celestron CF 9.25"
Vixen CF 8" f/4 Newt
Meade 8" SN f/4
Celestron C6 SCT
Skywatcher ED100
Skywatcher ED80
EQ6 Pro "Matilda"
AT Voyager
Canon 15x50is
Mallincam HyperColor Plus



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pev
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: dvb]
      #3095361 - 05/09/09 11:22 PM

Another vote for the image quality of the Canon IS. They give very nice and very flat field views that are sharp to the edge. Contrast is also great. They certainly compete with the premium binos and that's not including the IS function which basically puts them in another league.

I have the 10x30 and 15x50. The other day I was actually comparing the views of the moon with a mounted 20x80 against the 15x50 handheld. If you hold the IS with no support, the views are still much better than if none IS, none mounted binos. But if you lean on something or have something to support your elbows or lay back on a chair, the views are really really close to a mounted binocular. The 10x30 IS are even steadier since they have less magnification. They are excellent for daytime use.

I really don't see anything that's better for hand held views unless it has IS.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: l1n1234]
      #3095713 - 05/10/09 06:46 AM

Quote:

I picked up a Pentax 8x40 PCF WPII for $60 from a camera store going out of business and tried to use it handheld last night and the stars were so jittery and bothersome. I tried all the tips on this forum, laying on a lawn chair, bracing both arms, timing my breath, but still could not get a steady enough image.




It sounds as though either you have abnormally shaky hands or you're unusually sensitive to jitters. Most people are quite happy hand-holding 8x binoculars from a standing position -- much less using them with both elbows resting on a solid support. This suggests that you should definitely try before you buy with respect to IS binoculars. Generalizations that work for 95% of the population may not apply to you.

Quote:

I am thinking about getting the Canon 10x30IS, or 12x36IS II. Should I get the Fujinon, Nikon IS which may have more robust image stabilization?




I haven't used the Fujinons or Nikons. But the consensus among binocular astronomers who have tried these is essentially universal. The Fujinons and Nikons are designed to correct for gross motions as on a swaying boat, and are rather poor at correcting the fine motions that bother astronomers. The Canons are just the opposite, and are therefore clearly superior for astronomy.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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Luigi
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3095836 - 05/10/09 09:26 AM

As state above, Canon IS removes the fast jitters that your eyes can't follow and leaves the slow averaged motion that your eyes can follow. However, if you're really sensitive about crisp fine detail, the IS fuzzies can be be a problem. Put them on a tripod and the IS view is a good as the non IS view. The more motion the optics correct, the worse the fuzzies. In any case, you can see more with the IS on than off when hand held. Watch a plane fly by, engage the IS, and you'll suddenly be able to read the tail numbers. For me, with their bulky shape and weight, they're more of a novelty. For general use at night I prefer standard 10x50 Porros. For daytime, good 8x32 roofs are my choice. YMMV

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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l1n1234
member


Reged: 04/20/09
Posts: 10
Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3095840 - 05/10/09 09:27 AM

I think you are right that I have shaky hands,and am more sensitive to jitters. Both of which probably requires me to get a mount or one of the Canon IS.

Quote:

The Fujinons and Nikons are designed to correct for gross motions as on a swaying boat, and are rather poor at correcting the fine motions that bother astronomers. The Canons are just the opposite, and are therefore clearly superior for astronomy.




If the Canon IS eliminates the "fine" motions what causes this "swimming" or "floating" effect that everyone mentions. Is it body sway? Assuming that you are still trying to hold the Canon IS as steady as possible and not purposely sweeping?

Is the view one of pinpoint stars just "panning" around, or streaks and lines but not jumping? Assuming you properly focus first and then turn on the IS as Mike recommmends above.


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Luigi
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: l1n1234]
      #3095879 - 05/10/09 09:52 AM

>>>what causes this "swimming" or "floating"<<<

That's the actual residual motion after the fast jitter/jumping is moved. The steadier you can hold the bins, the less the residual motion.

>>>Is the view one of pinpoint stars just "panning" around, or streaks and lines but not jumping?<<<

Pinpoint stars panning around. Streaks are due to jitter/jumping, which is removed by the IS.

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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Alan French
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: l1n1234]
      #3095888 - 05/10/09 10:01 AM

If I am in a reclining lawn chair, the IS view is steady. There is no slow roll left. Ditto with observing birds from my little Quik-e-seat (a nice accessory in itself).

From a standing position, there are some larger motions left. I would describe them more as a slow pan side to side and up and down, not as a "slow roll." Since it is absent when I am seated, I would ascribe it to a gentle sway or movement of my body. When I am tired, it is worse than when I am well rested.

I agree with Mr. Dewar - the 18x50s are the ultimate astronomy binocular. I also view the 12x36 IIs as a superb birding binocular - light and a steady 12x view.

Clear skies, Alan


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PEterW
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: Alan French]
      #3096560 - 05/10/09 04:41 PM

Canon IS is a definite for daytime use, you can one hand hold them and still get rock steady (a very slight wander that doesn't bother me) images. The level of small detail you can see is fearsome.
Night-time use, the stars are pin-points, but then there aren't as many of them as with larger bins?! I prefer bigger bins so I can have a chance of seeing stuff... so a tripod is the way to go there. I do both, each to what it is best at!

Cheers

PEter


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Alan French
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Re: How close is Canon IS image to mounted view? new [Re: PEterW]
      #3097259 - 05/10/09 11:45 PM

I found if I needed a tripod for my binoculars, I'd take my little 90mm f/5 apochromat out instead. So I've given up tripod mounted binoculars entirely.

Clear skies, Alan


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