Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Refractors

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | (show all)
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: tlogan6680]
      #362814 - 03/03/05 05:29 PM

Tom,

Sunny CA - I wish . I's beeen overcast here something like 57 out of the last 60 days - clouds are back today but last night was great.

Glad to hear you caught the slew before any damage occurred - it happened to me once and I became very cautious when the scope was at a steep angle.

And thanks for the info about the realign - I'll try it next clear night - I often do a quick align and just use the tracking but it would be great to quickly bring the scope into a better alignment later in the evening.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tlogan6680
super member


Reged: 01/31/05
Posts: 115
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: ]
      #362872 - 03/03/05 06:29 PM

Hiker
One more thing, i also took your advice and got a better diagonal-WO 2 diag., and a Televue Plossel, can't believe the plossel that came with the scope did not even have Celestron's name on it. Tried Trapezium before these upgrades and the "e" star was barely visible-came and went, now with a good diagonal and a great eyepiece, much better, again thanx for your wonderfull review
cloudy tonite, but supposed to be a great weekend
tom in CA


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: tlogan6680]
      #362885 - 03/03/05 06:36 PM

Tom,

Great to hear - spring will be here soon and we'll have lots of nights to enjoy the scope.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpha1
super member


Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Wadsworth,Oh
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: ]
      #365656 - 03/06/05 03:18 PM

I am new to this forum and am looking into buying a new scope. It just so happens that I have been looking at this particular scope, only not the GT model. Can you verify some questions for me?
1. I live in a small town outside of a metropolitan area (Akron to the east, Cleveland to the north). The skies appear to be a mag 5 I believe, being able to make out Polaris and at least the top of the Little Dipper. Would this scope work well in this type of location?
2. I wish to observe the planets, binaries and DSOs. How well does this scope do with DSOs? Can you see M31 very well or do you need diverted sight? I realize that you would not see it exactly like a photograph (wouldn't that be neat?), but is it at least clear enough to make out the form?
3. Unfortunately I do not have an observatory for it to set in constantly. Would you say that even for its size it is portable? I would probably keep the OTA in my basement when not observing. I have a small storage shed that the mount can stay in.
4. I thought of getting a Dob (sorry I used that word), but the thought of collimating two mirrors scares the heck out of me. Does the C6R also have to be collimated and how?
I am sorry for asking these questions in this forum, but from reading all of your posts, I feel that I can get some honest and straight answers. If you ask a dealer he will tell you the answer that he wants you to hear. I have been looking for a while now, and have been narrowing it down some. I do intend to go to a star party that the local astronomy club is having next weekend to see what they have and maybe get a better idea.

Thanks

--------------------
Jim

12.5" Nightsky Truss Dob
Celestron C6R-GT (Big Yard Cannon)
Nighthawk (Baby Yard Cannon)
10" DSO (Big Boy)
17T14 Nagler (The Queen)
12T4 Nagler
24 Pan
4mm Radian
20 TV Plossel


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: alpha1]
      #365700 - 03/06/05 04:07 PM

Hi Alpha and welcome to Cloudy Nights,

I'll try to answer your questions:
1. My skies sound similar to yours - I live in a large suburban area and many nights can only catch a glimmer of Polaris.

2. I use the scope much as you described. I spend a lot of time with Saturn and Jupiter - some splitting doubles and some looking at the M list - particularly M42.

Saturn is beautiful in a 9mm EP or 7mm on a better good night. You will be able to see the Cassini Division clearly, banding on the planet and 4-6 moons on a given night. Views of Jupiter are similar - excellent detail on banding and 4 moons are easily seen. The moon is incredible - the full moon in an 18mm Ultima or crater detail along the terminator with a 7mm or 9mm EP.

I have not tried to locate M31 yet but spend time with M42 - in the 9mm EP you will be able to easily see the Trap and 4-6 stars depending on the conditions. With a 24mm Panoptic, the nebulosity is beautiful. I also can easily split Castor, Polaris, Rigel and others.

3. I keep mine in the family room and carry it outside in 4 pieces - tripod/mount then weights then OTA then battery and chair. The scope is large but no pieces weigh over about 26# - it might be intimidating though to carry it up from the basement - the OTA is over 4' long and a bit unweildy - I carry mine carefuly by the dovetail.

4. I have never colimated mine - one of the things I like about it is the quick setup - I have 3 kids and a hectic schedule - but I can carry it outside at 9:30 and be ready in 10 minutes, observe for 45 minutes then have it put away in another 5. No colimation or cooldown issues though it would probably benefit somewhat from 20-30 minutes to cooldown.

You will experience some CA on bright objects - a bit on Saturn and Jupiter and more on the full moon or bright stars like Sirius. The Fringe Killer helps a lot - but there is still some there - you can also use the aperture mask to reduce it more - it bothers some people and others ignore it. You won't have any on the DSOs.

Overall, I think the scope/mount are an excellent bargain - the mount is very stable for visual use and the scope will provide you with hours of enjoyment. One option you might consider is I understand that Celestron is now offering their smaller 100 ED scope on the same mount - it might be easier to carry and will have less CA at the cost of some light gathering ability.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
alpha1
super member


Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Wadsworth,Oh
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: ]
      #365728 - 03/06/05 04:31 PM

Harley,

In your opinion, is the C6R a good scope for DSOs? On Astronomics web site they claim it is good. However I need to know from an owner. Have you been able to see any galaxies?
In regards to balancing the scope higher, is the dew shield pretty heavy? Would you be able to make one out of styrene plastic? This could be lighter, thus enabling you to move the scope up. Also on the Orion web site they have an extension that is about 8 1/2" long besides the 16" extension for mounts.
I do agree with you on the scope's worth. I think it is a very good value. I just worry too much about making sure that it satisfies my needs.

Thanks

--------------------
Jim

12.5" Nightsky Truss Dob
Celestron C6R-GT (Big Yard Cannon)
Nighthawk (Baby Yard Cannon)
10" DSO (Big Boy)
17T14 Nagler (The Queen)
12T4 Nagler
24 Pan
4mm Radian
20 TV Plossel


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Scott BeithAdministrator
SRF
*****

Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 33079
Loc: Gulfport, MS
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: alpha1]
      #365797 - 03/06/05 05:35 PM

Alpha,
It works nicely on DSO's. It is fantastic on Open Clusters - and it performs nicely on all other types of DSO's. Astrozap makes a flexible plastic dewshield for the C6R (CR150). It is felt lined to absorb stray light and it is very lightweight.
I use my CR150 as my DSO scope. I have been very happy with the performance so far. I have never needed to collimate my scope.

--------------------
Scott
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Chris G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4027
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: Scott Beith]
      #365877 - 03/06/05 06:36 PM

M31 is visible directly from my light polluted skies.

--------------------
"Ain't nothin' Human 'bout the Human Race"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Refractor6
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 10/20/04
Posts: 3144
Loc: Vancouver B.C. , Canada
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: Chris G]
      #365934 - 03/06/05 07:38 PM

Galaxy's are quite good from a dark site in my 6" Skywatcher especially with my Orion{Vixen}Superwide eps. I've had great views of M81+M82,M51,M31+M32+M110,M33 as some examples, Good contrast and sharp resolution make up for it's smaller aperature for DSO at a dark site.


-----------

Stan

Skywatcher 150 f/8 /Burgess 200A
Antares 127 f/6.45 /Moonlite CF1-AR5
Skywatcher ED80
Celestron/Vixen Premium 80
Orion 9x63+15x63 mini giant binoculars


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: Refractor6]
      #366059 - 03/06/05 09:05 PM

Alpha,

Re the extension - after making the changes I noted, the balance point is high enough that I can view any point in the sky from a Starbound chair using a right angle finder and 90 degree diagonal.

A few weeks ago I ordered the Orion 16" extension but returned it - it was very heavy, and the bottom plate was pretty much flat (didn't go into the mount) so it barely caught the threaded rod. I think the 8 1/2" extension is for the heavier Atlas mount. I have a machinest making me a custom 6" extension in his spare time but the scope works fine without it with the balance changes.

As far as what you can see, I'll second that the scope works well - I caught M42, 44, 45, 81 and 82 last night - don't expect the views to look anything like the pictures but the stars are crisp and sharp and the scope has very decent light gathering ability.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
LesB
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 1687
Loc: Z-Hills, FL
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scope? new [Re: ]
      #369632 - 03/09/05 11:03 PM

Even if you're not buying a C6-RGT your post is a great reference for the accessories and other considerations necesary for choosing for a Newt, SCT, MAK, as well as a refractor.

You've touched a few observing issues when talking about observing near the zenith, including ergonomics. You may have created a new template for reviewing astro-optics and maybe a new category: Universal Reference Review for Telescopes. URRT.

--------------------
"The genius of humanity is to establish an identity which lies at an ever-increasing distance from our organic nature." Ray Tallis


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scope? new [Re: LesB]
      #369711 - 03/10/05 12:57 AM

Les,

Thanks for the kind words - I'm glad to hear that there's some value in the info. I put it together to try to help other newbies get answers to some common questions - I know I felt kind of lost the first few weeks and I was reading hundres of posts trying to figure out how to get started.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JayKSC
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 753
Loc: Florida
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scope? new [Re: ]
      #370022 - 03/10/05 11:23 AM

Quote:

Les,

Thanks for the kind words - I'm glad to hear that there's some value in the info. I put it together to try to help other newbies get answers to some common questions - I know I felt kind of lost the first few weeks and I was reading hundres of posts trying to figure out how to get started.

Regards,




This topic hasn't been useful only for "newbies" - I'm taking delivery of a new C6-RGT within the next few days, and have greatly appreciated this discussion to better know what I've gotten myself into. It's been years since I used a computerized scope, and then I've never personally owned a refractor over 4-inches aperture.

Thank you!

Jay
KSC FL

--------------------
Refractor manic.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scope? new [Re: JayKSC]
      #370168 - 03/10/05 02:14 PM

Jay,

Thanks for the feedback - it's great to hear that folks are finding the info useful. I'll post an update in early April with some addl info on a mount extension and my first attempts to take photos through the scope.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pollux

*****

Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 6185
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: ]
      #370200 - 03/10/05 02:49 PM

Maybe I should take my 6" Antares out to a super dark site whenever I have a chance.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: pollux]
      #370256 - 03/10/05 03:35 PM

Pollux,

Absolutely - you're young and single - so take advantage of your free time while you can......I have only been able to use the scope on the planets, double stars and clusters from my suburban yard - but it would be interesting to view some of the galaxies from a very dark site one of these days.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pollux

*****

Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 6185
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: ]
      #370274 - 03/10/05 03:46 PM

I am not young anymore.....

What makes me scared is that I still don't have a REAL JOB!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: pollux]
      #370340 - 03/10/05 04:57 PM

The job thing is a tough one - with your graphics skills and web design experience, I would imagine you could land a job with one of a 100 large firms in Vancouver - if you decided that the corporate life was for you - and that's an individual decision for each person. If not, then there should still be good opportunities for consulting - less reliable but more satisfying for most people.

I have done both over the last 30 years - I enjoyed the consulting more but it was a bit more nerve-wracking with 3 kids to support. Unfortunately, sometimes the corp life is also unpredictable. I have been working for an acquisition target 4 times in the last few years and each time watched my job either be eliminated or move to the East coast.

Best of luck,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Hoser
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/10/05
Posts: 1104
Loc: Boston, MA
Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT As Your First Scop new [Re: pollux]
      #370608 - 03/10/05 10:53 PM

Quote:

I am not young anymore.....

What makes me scared is that I still don't have a REAL JOB!




Been there, done that. I know how you're feeling. (I'm in the computer biz too.)

Best of luck...

--------------------
www.flemingastrophotography.com
Brilliant diamonds in pea soup


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Thinking of Buying a C6-RGT (UPDATE) [Re: Hoser]
      #385428 - 03/25/05 02:40 AM

Ask almost anybody thinking about buying their first scope how they intend to use it and they almost always say the same thing - "Well, I want to look at the moon and planets, and see DSOs - and oh yeah, I also want to use it to take photos and by the way, it should cost under $1000". I know because I said the same things myself several months ago. The reality, of course, is that it is difficult to find one scope that does everything well, particularly when dealing with a restrictive budget. After weeks of research, I ended up with the C6-R and hoped that it would handle each of the 3 areas I was interested in an acceptable manner. Well, after owning the scope for 4 months, I decided to take a few moments and record my latest thoughts:

C6R OTA
Overall, the scope has performed quite well and fully meets my expectations for a 6" achromatic refractor. I have spent dozens of enjoyable hours out under the stars (between the never-ending rain clouds) and have memorable views of the moon though it's various phases, Saturn's rings, Jupiter's bands, M42, M45 and a number of globular clusters. I have also split many close doubles and have spent hours examining craters, searching for faint stars in the trapezium and locating tiny moons around Saturn. CA is present but well controlled by a filter - the only times I really notice it are on Jupiter, the full moon and splitting doubles on bright stars like Rigel. Crater detail on a waxing or waning moon is breathtaking and stars generally resolve into tiny pinpoint white dots.

AS-GT Mount
The AS-GT mount has also fully met my expectations. The 2" steel legs on the tripod are very steady and the scope settles down in a couple seconds after a bump. I experienced some initial difficulties with gotos but, as I suspected, they were my fault, not the mount's. Be sure to carefully level the mount, align on Polaris and enter a precise time - stars will rotate out of the selected location if you are off by a minute or so due to the natural rotation of the earth. I also found that an illuminated reticle EP is a worthwhile investment - since acquiring a 10mm, my gotos have been flawless and every object appears close to center in a 13mm Nagler.

I also confirmed that the mount does learn. The first night after a reset, the scope will miss the alignment stars by a wide margin. By the second night, the mount will learn how much adjustment was required on the previous night and will be much closer to the alignment stars. By the third night, the alignment stars are nearly centered. If you make an error and have a bad alignment, I found it helpful to use the menu "reset" command to clear the computer's memory. Please be aware though that you will have to re-enter the site and date/time information.

Finally, the tracking is excellent. Although I don't recommend it, I have left the mount tracking and gone out to dinner - returning to the back yard a hour or so later, the object was still in the EP. WARNING - if you leave the scope on, ALWAYS be aware of the scope's projected path so that it doesn't accidently contact a leg. I only do this on objects well below zenith.

One final note - do yourself a favor and get a new power cord. Scopestuff sells a heavy coiled cord just long enough to reach from a Powertank to the mount - $12.00 including shipping - fused auto-adapter on one end and Celestron plug on the other - even has a red led on the auto-adapter to confirm the cord is getting power. Well worth the money!

Astrophotography
Besides enjoying time at the eyepiece, one of the main reasons I purchased the scope was to dabble in astrophotography. I am pleased to report that it is possible to take very nice photos using the scope BUT it does have its limitations:

1. Weight
In general, a scope used for astrophotography should weigh less than 50% of mount capacity to minimize jitter - the C6R exceeds that recommended limit by a wide margin. As a result, there is some jitter on exposures over 2 minutes long.

2. Chromatic Aberration
Yes, CA is a problem on bright objects. While you may not notice the CA when using the scope visually, the blue fringe will be quite evident in a long exposure. For example, on a 2 minute exposure, bright stars will have a broad blue band around them whose width is equal to approximately 50% of the star's diameter. Fortunately, much of it can be adjusted away in post-processing using Photoshop CS or Elements.

3. Aperture
At F8, the scope is fairly slow for photographic use. As a result, longer exposures will be required and the FOV will be smaller than a faster scope.

Limitations aside, taking photos through the scope is quite enjoyable. I do not have a webcam so I have not attempted to photograph Saturn or Jupiter but have taken numerous pictures of the moon, globular clusters, M42 and star groupings using a Nikon D70 DSLR. A few examples can be found at this link:
http://www.cloudynights.com/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=6252&cat=500

If you decide to go forward with photography, take a few minutes to read this article on the Televue site - it explains in easy to understand language the various ways to connect a camera to your scope.
http://www.televue.com/engine/page.asp?ID=236

Prime Focus
The telescope acts as approximately a 40x lens (1200mm flocal length / ~30mm chip diagonal) - the exact magnification will depend on the diagonal measurement of your CMOS or CCD (figure 43mm for 35mm film). To attach a SLR or DSLR, you will need a T-adapter and T-ring. NOTE: Not all T-adapters will fit the Mercury Systems visual back - I found that the WO T-adapter is machined to exactly the same size as the WO 2" diagonal and fits perfectly. Add a Celestron T-ring for your specific camera and you are good to go. To achieve higher magifications, replace the T-adapter with a TV 2x or 4x Powermate with a T-adapter ring attached.

Afocal Imaging
One of the problems attaching a camera for prime focus photography is the fixed magnification. Since I have a growing selection of high-quality EP's, I have been looking for a way to take photos through the EP at various magnifications. I have had good results holding a small digital camera to an 18mm Ultima but have had much less success taking pictures through various Naglers. Although I have not tried it yet, Scopetronix makes a product called Maxview II which allows any EP to be attached to the camera. Quality of results unknown.

Software
I'm not going to go into any detail on software packages used in astro-photography. Suffice it to say, 50% of any astro-photo is done at the camera - the rest is done at the computer. Expensive to purchase, Photoshop CS is the most popular software for photo-editing. The package has a steep learning curve but allows near total control over all aspects of the final image. I elected to purchase the less costly Photoshop Elements. Although less full-featured, the software was only $80 and reads the Nikon NEF raw format. Lots of good tutorials are available on the web for both packages.

Starbound Chair
This chair is fantastic - very comfortable and adjusts easily to any height - a must with a large refractor since the viewing positions cover such a wide range of heights. The only flaw is that the rubber feet on the chair need to be replaced every 2-3 months - the steel tube pushes through the rubber long before the rubber wears out. Fortunately, Ace Hardware in my area sells exactly the same feet - buy those made for 7/8" tubing - about $0.65/each. The feet will last much longer if you put a steel washer in the rubber feet before installing them. Buy a 1" OD steel washer and press it into the bottom of the rubber feet with a screwdriver - the washer will prevent the tube-end from cutting the rubber.

Mount Extension
The default low viewing position of the C6R-GT is one of the weak points of the package. Adding a WO diagonal, 2" brass focus knobs and Telrad mounting plate helped a great deal but I have continued exploring ways to raise the raise the viewing position. I ordered the Orion 16" extension for the Skyview Pro mount but returned it a few days later - although it did mate reasonably well to the AS-GT mount and was very well made, it was too heavy, too long, had an overly-large azimuth bolt alignment hole and had a fairly flat bottom that barely engaged the tripod bolt.

I recently located a company named Astrosky that agreed to machine a similar extension in a shorter length (see picture in gallery link above).

The Positives:
The entire unit is 7" long and weighs about 3#. The end caps are well machined and mate well with the mount and tripod. The bottom end cap extends 3/8" into the tripod and engages approximately 8 threads of the tripod bolt. The top cap includes an Allen-head bolt with 2 washers and engages the bottom of the mount by 7-8 threads. Overall the quality of the machine work seems good - the caps fit tightly in the pipe and mate snugly with the tripod and mount. The caps are attached to the 4" pipe with 3 Allen-head screws on each end.

The unit feels very solid when installed and height is sufficient (with the other balance changes I made earlier) to prevent the scope from hitting the tripod legs when viewing at zenith. With the extension, I find that I am able to pull-in the lower leg extensions by approximately half of their length and still view objects directly overhead while seated in a Starbound chair. The mount doesn't feel tippy and seems quite stable with a 6" refractor installed.

Minor Quibbles:
(1) the bottom cap was manufactured much like the Orion bottom cap and the azimuth receiver hole is much wider than the peg - this allows the entire extension to twist slightly and could throw off a polar alignment if it shifted in use.

(2) the aluminum tube is painted a flat black - it actually looks kind of cool with the aluminum edges on the caps showing but doesn't match the pebbled finish on the tripod and mount.

Overall, the extension serves its purpose and is a bargain at a cost of around $60. James at Astrosky was good to work with and communicated well during the transaction.

Conclusion
The C6R-GT fully meets my expectations. The scope introduced me to a whole new world of astronomical observing and astro-photography - it has been a joy to use and great fun to modify. Although I intend to hold onto the scope for the next few years for visual use, I am planning to supplement it this year with an 80mm APO to expand my interest in astro-photography and allow me to take a scope on the road. Long-term who knows - at present I am thinking that the perfect combination may be an 80mm APO for travel and photography and a 12" DOB with Zambuto glass to reach those elusive DSOs.

Regards,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | (show all)


Extra information
35 registered and 17 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  desertstars, Remy Bosio, Strgazr27, LLEEGE, Joe Cipriano 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 14967

Jump to

Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics