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Kimmo Absetz
super member
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 110
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One more comment on apparent resolution.
The upper limit for apparent resolution will be reached with optics that have sufficiently low total aberrations relative to magnification, sufficiently high transmission and contrast, and little enough stray light and scatter problems to allow the observer's eyes resolve all they would be capable of with perfect optics of that aperture/magnification specs. If the measured apparent resolution is worse, it has to be because the tested specimen had one or more shortcomings in actual optical performance. In order for the eye to be able to achieve its maximum resolution through the binocular, the binocular needs to have true resolution close to twice as good as what the maximum apparent resolution is. Sample variation can easily mess up a binocular's performance sufficiently for it not meet this standard. To illustrate this, I'll quote here the measured resolution results for two Canon binoculars measured by the optronics lab of our army for a local camera magazine in 2003. These figures are not explained particularly well, and are specified as the ability to resolve line-pairs/milliradian. The tested specimen of the original first generation 12x36 IS got 31 lp/mr and the 15x50 IS 16.8 lp/mr. As a convenient reference, the two best units for resolution were a Swaro EL 8.5x42 and a Leica Trinovid 8x32, both with 42.3 lp/mr. The tested sample of the 15x50 IS was probably an importer demo unit and may have been bashed around a bit, but to me it shows that at worst the performance of such a binocular can really be rather horrendous. More towards the other end (and hopefully more representative), the 15x50 IS that I owned for almost 8 years, IS off and tripod mounted, resolved just under three seconds of arc with line-pairs at 10 meters (1.46" if single line width is the reference), better than my sample of the Nikon 10x42 SE.
Another thing to bear in mind is that the better the viewers' eyesight acuity, the higher the apparent resolution the person gets with given magnification and consequently the better her/his binoculars need to be for this maximum potential to be reached. Likewise, even given a very good sample, stabilization artifacts will also be more readily (dis)appreciated by those with very sharp vision.
Kimmo
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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thanks Kimmo,
Quote:
the 15x50 IS that I owned for almost 8 years, IS off and tripod mounted, resolved just under three seconds of arc with line-pairs at 10 meters
was that boosted with an auxiliary scope ( I suspect), or normal 15x?
For comparison, the Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 boosted achieved 2.6 arcsec and the Fujinon 16x70 achieved 2.4 arcsec. The Nikon SE 12x50 achieved 2.6 arcsec, a really excellent value.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1276
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I can see that IS is ideal for a lot of people's birding and astronomy styles. And I'm sure it will improve if ever there's some real competition. But here's why I am not eating my heart out.
For birding, which I am not very proficient at, more and more I find the most important quality of the binocular is quickness. A wide field 7x or 8x seems just right. Such low powers might benefit from stabilization in a small way, but they are not annoyingly shaky. A lot of times, I get about one second to look at a bird, and some times an in flight view is all. A button to push, wacky motion aberrations, no thanks.
Larger binoculars for astronomy are no fun for me standing flatfooted with my neck craning and arms straining. Even if a tripod, or IS, provides perfect steadiness, it is still uncomfortable to me. I simply have to lean back in a chair and brace myself well to enjoy observing anywhere near the zenith. And with that, I get a lot of stability. Between heartbeats, about half the time, my 16x70 is just about rock steady. You could say my stabilization feature comes and goes. Ron
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3957
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
That's right Mike. Except that we do have a very good idea what the limit is, if only from the fact that I've done this over 60 times and a very few have established a fair value for low and high limit, which is to say, yes, we know when we are close to the upper and lower limits.
Ahem, I believe I used the word exactly, and of course it will vary with the individual conducting the test. It is not a limit for the binoculars, per se, it's a limit for your eyes.
Anyway, apparent resolution is a metric for comparing a certain aesthetic quality, not performance. Take the same binoculars and change the oculars to a shorter focal length with the same performance (as oculars), and the metric goes down (gets worse) while resolution goes up.
-------------------- Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt and equatorial platform
- 6 eyepieces and a Barlow
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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beachchairbill
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/06/08
Posts: 508
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lo Net,
I just tested the Canon IS 15x50 hand held then with the IS on and then placed them on the Davis & Sanford V12 with Fluid head and here is what I found: Hand held while standing with out the IS on - very shakey. With the IS on just about solid and a steady view. Placed on the Davis & Sanford ( which has a quick release feature) IS off solid and the view was sharp. With the IS on - solid, sharp and a nice view at three hundred yards. At nine hundred yard the same and with the IS on some what sharper. Only wish I had mor mag for this range.
Hoped this helps
BB
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Kimmo Absetz
super member
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 110
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Ed,
As you guessed, my own measurement was a boosted figure, with 5x additional magnification.
Regarding your boosted tests, it is to be expected that 70mm optics, unless seriously defective, would exceed the resolution of a 50mm optic. The Nikon figure, coming from another 50mm binocular, is a fairer standard of comparison, and the Nikon very likely represents close to the best performance attainable from a conventional binocular - decently long focal length high-quality achromatic objective, simple and well-made porroprism cluster and a well-corrected but not overly complicated eyepiece. All of this in a package which is precision-made to be easily collimated and dependable. Good samples of the SE of any size show very low total aberration levels. In the central area, usually only the inevitable CA and some (mild for a binocular) spherical aberration. Canons can show very little SA and CA, but because of the complexity of the design, there can rather easily be detrimental amounts of coma resulting from unsuccessful collimation of the various elements within each optical train. Actually, Ed, it would be pretty interesting if you could give a qualitative description of a boosted star-test for each binocular tube independently for the sample of Canon you have. That would tell us something about what is going on compromising resolution and contrast. The typical problem with underperforming Canons is that they may be factory collimated in such a way that the vari-angle prism (or both) is made to compensate for residual collimation errors in the optical train. This inevitably causes coma either in non-stabilized views, stabilized views or both.
Kimmo
Edited by Kimmo Absetz (05/14/09 03:52 PM)
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doctordub
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1024
Loc: New Rochelle, New York
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Kimmo, That would explain some comments I have heard in the past about the image being sharper with the IS on than when it is off. I have never experienced this and was wondering what would explain this. CS
-------------------- Jonathan
TeleVue TV102 on a Vixen Sphinx SXW mount
Meade LX200 10" SCT EMC on LXD55 with Pier
Jason Monolux 60mm F11 Achromat
Canon 15x50 IS
Minox BD 15X58 ED BR
Celestron Regal 8X42 LX
Olympus E-510, Zuiko 14-42, & 40-150
Meade DSI, LPI, Eep Orion color Eep
TeleVue Binovue, barlow,filters, & eps
Siebert Power Mag wheel
ASUS Eee PC
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doctordub
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1024
Loc: New Rochelle, New York
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Quote:
Quote:
I have found it makes a very significant difference if you shut the IS off, focus as carefully as you can on an object and then engage the IS and fine-tune if necessary. The images are at least twice as sharp that way and I see none of the coma/flaring artifacts that are otherwise commonly seen.
That's the method I've been using. BTW, I found it impossible to hold the IS button down and attempt to refocus the right diopter. with my left hand.
Last night I viewed Saturn. I compared the 15x50 to my 15x70 Ultra.
I mounted the 15x70 Ultra and could see the points of the rings sticking out both ends. I handheld the Ultras and Saturn was swimming around rapidly and I could no longer hold it steady enough to see the points.
I mounted the Canon 15x50. Without IS turned on I could barely see what I thought were the points of the rings sticking out. With IS turned on I could not see the points sticking out and the disk grew to be slightly misshapen.
With the 15x50 off the tripod, when I turned IS on, it would settle the rapid movement to a slow easy to follow sway. But the image was no better. Saturn looked slightly out of focus and I could not improve it by refocusing the main focus dial.
So I tested these two with/without tripod on a resolution chart. I suspected readings were probably a step low all the way around since these are not in bright light. That's normal for lower light level. FWIW, the best reading I've ever achieved with the Ultra was one half step lower, 5.8 arcsec (84 apparent). The finest readings I've ever achieved with mounted regular 15x70s was 6.5 arcsec, with the Nikon SE 12x50 7.0 arcsec (84 apparent). Lower apparent readings are better.
Obie Ultra 15x70
mounted 6.2 arcsec (93 apparent)
handheld 8.7 arcsec
Canon 15x50 IS
mounted 6.9 arcsec (104 apparent)
handheld 9.8 arcsec
handheld w/IS 7.8 arcsec
FWIW, I tried handheld first and could not focus either binocular fine enough on the moving target to do this test. I needed to rest the binocular on the banister to get decent focus. Also I tried several of these readings several times, so these are the best readings I got, I had some worse readings.
Comments on above. Without a doubt the IS engaged is causing the lines to blur. It's still better than the 15x70 handheld, but not as good as the Canon mounted and not near as good as the Ultra mounted.
The Ultra handheld could not be held steady enough to see as fine a detail, but the image quality was better. The lines that I could see were sharp and dark. The lines I saw in the IS were fuzzy bblurred and grey.
If all you ever compare is the handheld difference in the images, my guess is that you will be so wowed by the difference in the images swimming (or not swimming with IS), that only few would be looking for the finest detail to see which really has finer image quality. The target size I'm seeing finest details on ranges from 10mm to 7mm at a distance of 100 yds. 10mm was the poorest reading. So, comparing the quality of images requires the observer to see a 7-8mm target at 100 yds and the lines are about 2mm thick. That's much smaller than Saturn in the test above.
edz
Hi EdZ,
I decided to evaluate the resolution of my Canon 15X50 IS and Celestron Regal 8X42 LX binoculars.
Celestron Regal LX 8X42
mounted 10 arcsec (80 apparent)
handheld 13 arcsec (104 apparent)
Canon 15x50 IS
mounted 5.0 arcsec (75 apparent)
handheld 6.7 arcsec (101 apparent)
handheld IS 5.7 arcsec (86 apparent)
I would wait at least 2 seconds when evaluating the IS, and some times turned of the IS and refocused. The apparent sharpness of these two binos in daylight seem to match these results with my freinds who have looked through these two binos.
CS
-------------------- Jonathan
TeleVue TV102 on a Vixen Sphinx SXW mount
Meade LX200 10" SCT EMC on LXD55 with Pier
Jason Monolux 60mm F11 Achromat
Canon 15x50 IS
Minox BD 15X58 ED BR
Celestron Regal 8X42 LX
Olympus E-510, Zuiko 14-42, & 40-150
Meade DSI, LPI, Eep Orion color Eep
TeleVue Binovue, barlow,filters, & eps
Siebert Power Mag wheel
ASUS Eee PC
Edited by doctordub (05/22/09 01:48 PM)
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beachchairbill
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/06/08
Posts: 508
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Nice reports everyone.
I understand that the Zeiss 20x60 IS does a better job at $5,600.00 USA.
Beachchairbill
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doctordub
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1024
Loc: New Rochelle, New York
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I believe Daniel has found it at the low low price of $4,500.00!
-------------------- Jonathan
TeleVue TV102 on a Vixen Sphinx SXW mount
Meade LX200 10" SCT EMC on LXD55 with Pier
Jason Monolux 60mm F11 Achromat
Canon 15x50 IS
Minox BD 15X58 ED BR
Celestron Regal 8X42 LX
Olympus E-510, Zuiko 14-42, & 40-150
Meade DSI, LPI, Eep Orion color Eep
TeleVue Binovue, barlow,filters, & eps
Siebert Power Mag wheel
ASUS Eee PC
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3957
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Can anybody explain to me, in general terms, how the Zeiss IS system works?
-------------------- Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt and equatorial platform
- 6 eyepieces and a Barlow
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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