G. Nikolidakis
member
Reged: 06/27/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Greece , Athens
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Last night 05/22 I had a great opportunity for one night observing session.
It was on a new observing place with a typical truly dark site excellent seeing
and very clear transparency.
A great opportunity to try some late spring targets on my one year old truss-tube 20” F/4.5 telescope .
The observing went very well with a variety of deep sky objects from highlights to the challenges.
I was able to see the central star of Ring Nebula in direct vision, the central core of the Hoag object using a lot of averted vision
and here is came my surprise, I was complete unable to get any sign from Palomar 4.
I spend about half of hour trying to get any sign using tips like averted vision, tapping the scope, but Palomar 4 was not there.
I thought that was a target within the 20” limits and also I have some reports stated that is visible even using direct vision.
Regards from Greece
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George Nikolidakis
We live in a universe the dimensions of which are beyond of human imagination.
We count the time scale and analyze the creation mechanisms, trying to catch in mind the invisible.
http://geonik.homeip.net
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BillFerris
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/17/04
Posts: 2910
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George,
It sounds like you had a nice night of observing. Consistent visibility of the Ring's central star with direct vision indicates both good seeing and reasonably dark skies. So, don't let elusive Palomar 4 dampen your spirits. This is a challenging object.
I've observed Pal 4 with my 18 inch (link) but also have the benefit of very transparent skies at the high elevation observing sites near my home. In the 18 inch, Pal 4 is an averted vision object. The sketch in the above-linked report nicely captures the subtle appearance of this halo globular. When you consider that its members typically glow at a feeble 20th magnitude, Pal 4's bashful nature is quite understandable.
Bill in Flag
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Grand Canyon Adventure
Lowering the Threshold
18" Obsession
4.5" Meade 4500
10x50 Swift Audubon
Cosmic Voyage
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MessierScott
sage
Reged: 06/18/07
Posts: 294
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Yes, this is a tought one.
It was my 3rd attempt before I seen it on one of our better nights from our club's dark site.
2005-Mar-4
Seeing-above average
Trans-mag 6.6
20-inch at 279x
Very faint, but with a/v it was there as a grainy patch against the background sky more than 50% of the time. Tried slightly lower power (209x)& that actually helped a bit. Scope tapping also helped. A possible slightly brighter area towards the SW side, but it comes & goes with the seeing. Otherwise a pretty even glowing across the entire surface. A 14th mag star is a little under 2’ to the NE. A 10th mag star is 6’ ESE.
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Scott Kranz
20-inch f/4.3 Starmaster w/Zambuto mirror
7-inch Starmaster
H-alpha Coronado PST
Denkmeier II binoviewers w/24mm Panoptics
16x80 binos
Astronomical Society of Kansas City
Powell Observatory with 30-inch f/4.9 EQ newtonian
Astronomical League Messier, Meteor, Sunspotter, & Asteroid Observing Programs Coordinator
ASKC Dark Sky Site
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G. Nikolidakis
member
Reged: 06/27/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Greece , Athens
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Quote:
It was my 3rd attempt before I seen it on one of our better nights from our club's dark site.
Seems that i have an open account with Palomar 4 , i will give a try again the next session...
Thanks
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George Nikolidakis
We live in a universe the dimensions of which are beyond of human imagination.
We count the time scale and analyze the creation mechanisms, trying to catch in mind the invisible.
http://geonik.homeip.net
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solitary
member
Reged: 08/15/08
Posts: 57
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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What a brilliant site you had for observing.
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SkyWatcher 8" Dobsonian Telescope
William Optics SWAN 33mm 2" Eyepiece
Telrad Finder Scope
Baader Hyperion Zoom II
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G. Nikolidakis
member
Reged: 06/27/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Greece , Athens
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Quote:
What a brilliant site you had for observing.
Hi
I am very happy with it.
It is a beautiful area on 1100 meters elevation just 2 hours from Athens city.
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George Nikolidakis
We live in a universe the dimensions of which are beyond of human imagination.
We count the time scale and analyze the creation mechanisms, trying to catch in mind the invisible.
http://geonik.homeip.net
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10494
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Drifting off-topic slightly, I observed Palomar 6 in Ophiuchus last Wednesday night from Cherry Springs State Park through a friend's 20" Obsession. It was merely a faint glow as seen through a 13mm Tele Vue Ethos.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: Ireland
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I've made attempts at several of the Palomars with a 16", but have yet to bag any of them.
I'm further hampered by being at 54°N, so some of the brighter ones are too low in the murk. I think Palomar 2 might be my best chance, but I haven't taken a crack at it yet.
-- Jeff.
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Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
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Hmmm, will have to give good ole Pal 4 a peep next session. Had Pal 11 in the 14" last week. It was a little tough but it was definitely there.
Clear Skies to All.
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Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow
Local Site
Clear Skies?
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Hello George!
Its good to see people working on the Palomars and other challenging objects. Palomar 4 isn't the easiest of the Palomars, and it isn't the hardest (the hardest seems to be Palomar 15 by far). I've bagged Pal 4 with both my 18", and, as funny as a coincidence as it is, I looked at it last night with my 25" dob (I'm currently near the end of a 16 day dark sky observing trip in West Texas).
With the 18", it was a very faint glow with perhaps a touch of graininess too it. This was observed under Bortle scale 3 skies ("blue" zone, M33 naked eye, limiting mag 6.5), and I think I used about 110X. I've been revisiting some previously-observed challenge objects with my 25", so last night I took another look at Pal 4 (the skies here are Bortle scale 1, "dark as space"). With a 19mm Panoptic (140X), I was able to easily hold it as a grainy, faint glow. I did not spend the time to increase power to see how many individual stars were resolvable- I was racing some clouds I thought might be getting ready to cover the sky (they didn't).
For any faint object, a specialized finder chart is a huge help. For my finder charts, I use images from the POSS to help me zero in on the faint object. I find that even the most inclusive star chart software, Megastar, simply does not include the necessary quantity of background stars or galaxies, or even, nebulae (Megastar leaves out alot of Sharpless nebulae). For example, even with an 18", you can observe galaxies that are completely anonymous in any catalog or source.
So anyway, if you plan on doing the Palomars, I would highly suggest using finder charts- at least for a few of the fainter ones. I get my POSS images from the SIMBAD Astronomical Database: http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/
Here's a POSSII red image of Palomar 4, acquired using SIMBAD:
Edited by tatarjj (05/27/09 06:35 PM)
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MessierScott
sage
Reged: 06/18/07
Posts: 294
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I think the easiest Palomar was 9 (it's also NGC 6717). It's also right next to a 5th mag star so it's easy to find as well.
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Scott Kranz
20-inch f/4.3 Starmaster w/Zambuto mirror
7-inch Starmaster
H-alpha Coronado PST
Denkmeier II binoviewers w/24mm Panoptics
16x80 binos
Astronomical Society of Kansas City
Powell Observatory with 30-inch f/4.9 EQ newtonian
Astronomical League Messier, Meteor, Sunspotter, & Asteroid Observing Programs Coordinator
ASKC Dark Sky Site
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G. Nikolidakis
member
Reged: 06/27/08
Posts: 97
Loc: Greece , Athens
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Quote:
The sketch in the above-linked report nicely captures the subtle appearance of this halo globular
Hi Bill one of the members of local club told me about your sketch. He is using your sketch and he says they are very precise..
Quote:
So anyway, if you plan on doing the Palomars, I would highly suggest using finder charts- at least for a few of the fainter ones. I get my POSS images from the SIMBAD Astronomical Database: http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/
Thanks for the link. I am using maps and charts especial for the Palomar 4 I spent a lot of time make sure that I am on the field so no doubt about that.
A final question : What is from your experience the smallest aperture needed to get any observation sign from Palomar 4 ?
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George Nikolidakis
We live in a universe the dimensions of which are beyond of human imagination.
We count the time scale and analyze the creation mechanisms, trying to catch in mind the invisible.
http://geonik.homeip.net
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Quote:
A final question : What is from your experience the smallest aperture needed to get any observation sign from Palomar 4 ?
I donno... if I had to GUESS, I'd say somewhere between 20 and 30 cm (8-12"). You would need a really good site, and really good eyes. A guess for minimum aperture for a person with decent vision and a decent site might be 30 or 35 cm. Keep in mind these are guesses, but Pal 4 really should have been visible for you.
By the way, I see you refer to people calling Pal 4 "direct vision"; personally, I think many observers overuse this term, possibly describing what is actually semi-direct vision- or else they are mutants with rods where there are supposed to be cones  It's also possible that my direct vision is alot less sensitive than other peoples'...
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John T.
Austin, TX
25" f/4.2 Dob
18" Obsession #701
4" Stellar Vue Achromat
8X56 Binos
Edited by tatarjj (05/28/09 05:02 PM)
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5025
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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Sounds like the skies weren't quite transparent or dark enough to make Palomar 4 appear in the eyepiece. There was one night were I and another observer tried for Palomar13 with his 25-inch Dob, and I was not able to see it and he only just spotted it. Try again at the first opportunity, it's sometimes takes me several attempts before I locate a very faint object. The Palomar globular clusters can be insanely difficult to see. I've just glimpsed Palomar 12 and possibly 11. Only Palomar 9 was what I would call a fairly easy object.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
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Palomar 9 was observable in my 8" from dark skies. It's definitely one of the easier Pal globs to observe. I'm still working on a few of the others though. I have a bad feeling that I'm going to need the extra aperture for some of the others as even observing them in a buddies 14" is still indeed tough.
Clear Skies to Everyone.
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Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow
Local Site
Clear Skies?
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alepohori
newbie
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 2
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Quote:
Quote:
A final question : What is from your experience the smallest aperture needed to get any observation sign from Palomar 4 ?
I donno... if I had to GUESS, I'd say somewhere between 20 and 30 cm (8-12"). You would need a really good site, and really good eyes. A guess for minimum aperture for a person with decent vision and a decent site might be 30 or 35 cm. Keep in mind these are guesses, but Pal 4 really should have been visible for you.
By the way, I see you refer to people calling Pal 4 "direct vision"; personally, I think many observers overuse this term, possibly describing what is actually semi-direct vision- or else they are mutants with rods where there are supposed to be cones It's also possible that my direct vision is alot less sensitive than other peoples'...
Hello all! I can confirm that Palomar 4 was visible with my 8"f/6 equatorial newtonian. It was extremely dim, and became visible with averted vision, by passing above the field again and again turning the RA knob by hand. Note that i use my equatorial mount manually, without having any motor. This target was one of the most difficult deep sky objects i've ever observed.
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 16264
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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Hi alepohori and welcome to Cloudy Nights. You must be observing from a dark site.
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Ted
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JakeSaloranta
sage
Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 234
Loc: Sisu, Sauna, Sibelius...
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Regarding Palomar globular clusters... they always seem to be associated with large apertures but that is not the case. Me and few of my observing buddy have seen 12 out of the 15 globulars with apertures ranging between 10" to 3".
Palomar 4 is one of the ones I personally have been unable to spot - although I have never tried it.
/Jake
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alepohori
newbie
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 2
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Quote:
Hi alepohori and welcome to Cloudy Nights. You must be observing from a dark site.
I observe from a site about one hour from Athens/Greece. The Pal 4's altitude was about 80 degrees in clear and crisp weather conditions. Can anyone confirm this object with a 10" or less instrument?
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davidpitre
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 1824
Loc: Central Texas
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Palomar 4 is indeed a difficult globular. Barbara Wilson says , with a 20", it "requires pretty darn good skies".
I have had several attempts with both 18" and 20" scopes hat were unsuccessful, and this was under the dark skies of West Texas. As a matter of fact, at the Eldorado Star Party this past month I challenged 2 other 20" scope owners with the object over the course of a couple of nights and neither could definitively claim to have spotted it. We at times thought we glimpsed it, but no one would say for sure. Excellent charts were used. I should point out that I was able to see Palomars 1,7,8,9,11,12 as well as Terzan 7,8 and Haute Provence 1 over the week.
So while it is certainly doable in a 20" or perhaps less, I would not say "you should have seen it". I know Greece can get some nasty haze in the summer time.
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David
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