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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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I looked up my LP for Austin, Tx. and I am in an orange Zone 5. On perfect nights (mostly winter) I can see the Milky Way at zenith.
Seeing is best after midnight and an hour and a half before dawn. Guess this is to be expected in this region.
Looking at the LP map I feel that I am actually pretty fortunate to be close to a city and still have Zone 5 skies. Looks like LP is really taking over most city areas. I am originally from New Orleans and never bothered to look up. White Zone! 
Is orange still considered OK?
I can still see M31 with my binos, which I am happy to report.
Sean
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1240
Loc: Estonia
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Orange isn't too bad for a near-city or city LP level.
Take a drive to a blue zone or better sometime, though, and see what you're missing.
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby. Call me spoiled if you want, but I do not consider even a "green" zone dark skies- not after one sees what the skies look like from a "grey" or "black" zone.
Since I am moving to Austin in two months, maybe I'll have to take you out to a real dark sky site  Looking at the LP maps, dark skies (grey zones) are only a something like a 75 mile drive away, and truely dark-as-space is a weekend trip to the Davis mountains (6-7 hour drive) away.
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John T.
Austin, TX
25" f/4.2 Dob
18" Obsession #701
4" Stellar Vue Achromat
8X56 Binos
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rathbaster
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/21/08
Posts: 542
Loc: East Bridgewater, MA
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An orange zone is good for developing your finding skills and testing your patience.
I live and observe under red zoned skies, and run a college observatory under the same skies. I know there are better skies out there, but I rarely see them, so make due with what I have.
-Joe
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Bridgewater State College Observatory
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby.
Sue French, author of Celestial Sampler and regular columnist for Sky & Telescope, does most of her observing from her backyard in the orange zone. And there, through her 4-inch refractor, she routinely observes fine details in faint objects that elude experienced observers with scopes three times as big under pristine skies.
The lesson is that although dark skies are immensely important for deep-sky observing, experience and attitude are just as important. At some level, deep-sky observing is all about challenging and pushing the threshold for seeing objects at the edge of visibility. You reach that threshold sooner under bright skies, but observing regular galaxies in the orange zone uses exactly the same skills as observing low-surface-brightness galaxies under dark skies.
Mind you, not all orange-zone sites are the same. Even according to Cinzano's original study, there's a 3-fold variation in sky brightness from the bright edge of the orange zone to the dark edge. And some recent experiments that I've done suggest that the map is even less precise than that.
Nonetheless, if you can see the winter Milky Way, which is much fainter than the summer Milky Way, your site can't be all that bad. I have probably done more than 50% of all my deep-sky observing under skies that bright or brighter.
On the other hand, it's very easy for you to get to much darker skies, and that would certainly be well worth doing -- at least to see for yourself what the difference is.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Thanks for the encouragement Tony.
Actually, I have been to Lake Buchanan for viewing with the Austin Astronomical Society. I have never seen skies so dark (blue zone). You can't even make out details in the person standing next to you.
The Milky Way was breath taking. I can't imaging a brown or black zone! 
So the summer Milky Way is brighter? Hopefully we will have some good skies and I will be able to check it out.
I have a NP 101 on the way and am hoping to get some good views. A member in a red zone has posted good seeing with it.
Sean
Edited by mypontiac (06/04/09 01:38 PM)
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby.
Sue French, author of Celestial Sampler and regular columnist for Sky & Telescope, does most of her observing from her backyard in the orange zone. And there, through her 4-inch refractor, she routinely observes fine details in faint objects that elude experienced observers with scopes three times as big under pristine skies.
I find this statement very hard to believe. I've read Sue French's column and have not come across any of these claims. Could you give an example?
Quote:
The lesson is that although dark skies are immensely important for deep-sky observing, experience and attitude are just as important.
I do not fully agree here. While experience is very important, I've had stark newbies to the hobby step up to the eyepiece of my telescope and see details in objects that would be completely invisible from a city- example, the Horeshead nebula. Yes, I've had beginners see it through my 18" from a dark site. I've had people who have never even looked through a telescope gasp at the detail visible in the Veil nebula or M51 at a public star gazes at dark sky sites- again, both objects you couldn't expect to see much of under strong city light pollution. I feel that while experience is important, light pollution trumps all.
HOWEVER, attitude is the most important factor in determining how much FUN you have, definately. If you have a mindset that allows you to have fun under light polluted skies- like Sue French- then who cares how light polluted it is. It's all about enjoying the universe.
Quote:
Mind you, not all orange-zone sites are the same. Even according to Cinzano's original study, there's a 3-fold variation in sky brightness from the bright edge of the orange zone to the dark edge. And some recent experiments that I've done suggest that the map is even less precise than that.
Nonetheless, if you can see the winter Milky Way, which is much fainter than the summer Milky Way, your site can't be all that bad. I have probably done more than 50% of all my deep-sky observing under skies that bright or brighter.
On the other hand, it's very easy for you to get to much darker skies, and that would certainly be well worth doing -- at least to see for yourself what the difference is.
All very true- though, if he can see the winter milky way, it makes me wonder if he might be in a yellow zone.
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John T.
Austin, TX
25" f/4.2 Dob
18" Obsession #701
4" Stellar Vue Achromat
8X56 Binos
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
If he can see the winter milky way, it makes me wonder if he might be in a yellow zone.
I have been able to see the summer Milky Way pretty easily everywhere in the red zone around Boston where I've tried looking for it. In the orange zone (at least here in Boston), I would expect to see considerable structure in the Milky Way, though obviously nothing like in darker locations.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5028
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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Go to a site in the blue or gray zone and you'll see straight away the sky at your home is badly light polluted. I have barely seen the summer Milky Way faintly from my house, but the light pollution here is severe, even with my light screen up. I'm right in the middle of the red zone. During the winter, it's impossible to see no matter how clear it is, it's just too many lights here to see it. That said, I do see lots of objects from home, washed out and all. It doesn't mean that every time you want to look at something other than the Moon or planets that you must drive three hours to a dark area. It does mean that you'll want to save the faint and challenging objects for the times when you can take the time to do that. Your skies are far better than many urban residents, because there are many white zoned cities where you couldn't see M-31 at all with binoculars and just barely with a 10-inch telescope. I make the most of whatever sites I can observe from, including my front lawn. One thing that does help a lot while observing from urban and suburban areas are digital setting circles. If you can't star hop due to light pollution, you can see objects that otherwise would be missed using digital setting circles.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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tatarjj,
I sure hope I am in a yellow zone! 
From the LP map, I am in the middle of an orange zone. But my subdivision has dim lighted streets and lots of "green belt". Sometimes coming home at night I have trouble getting the key in the door. So it can be dark.
Funny that ya'll say the winter Milky Way is dimmer than summer. I usually see a very lit up sky on crisp clear nights. Especially around 3:00 am.
Now is a bad time for me to go out and judge since the moon is dominating the sky.
In the fall it is very easy to take a pair of binos and find M31 and double cluster.
Stars are pretty plentiful at zenith.
Horizon tends to be washed out naked eye.
Sean
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s58y
Postmaster
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 5509
Loc: Eastern NY
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Quote:
I sure hope I am in a yellow zone!
From the LP map, I am in the middle of an orange zone. But my subdivision has dim lighted streets and lots of "green belt". Sometimes coming home at night I have trouble getting the key in the door. So it can be dark.
Best bet would be to get an SQM or SQM-L and see how bad your skies really are. The zones on the map are based on data that is over 10 years old, and some aeras may be much brighter now, others less so, and maybe some are even darker. Also, sky brightness will vary a lot from day to day and season to season. Maybe your skies are darker in the winter, unlike around here (leaves vs snow)?
At my orange zone location near the border with yellow, the SQM usually read 20.25 to 20.4 on good nights, and once read 20.55.
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Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis
Old camera lenses: 800mm f/5.6, 180mm f/3.4
AP900, Barndoor tracker
http://www.pbase.com/s58y
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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tatarjj,
Quote:
Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby.
My area is supposedly in the middle of a red zone, though I think it actually tends toward the orange end of that zone. It might be a challenge or discouragement to SOME to observe in the red/orange zone. However, I've seen plenty here and have not lost my enthusiasm.  I have no problem seeing M31 naked eye on a clear night. I routinely see M33 in 10x50 binos. In the summer I can see naked eye many of the Messier objects in Sagittarius and Scorpio. I've seen the spiral arms and bridge in M51 through my 8" Newt. I observed M101 in my 10" Newt. My wife and daughter have also seen most of these objects. I've bagged all the Messier list except M74, and I'll do that this summer.... and all without a goto. Also, many NGC objects are visible from my light-polluted area. I'm not about to quit!
Now, I admit there are some types of objects that are very difficult or impossible to see from my area: fainter galaxies and extended objects with low surface brightness, such as the North America nebula, the Veil, the Witch, etc. These are best reserved for new moon weekend trips to a dark site. The nearest dark site that I've visited - 50 miles and 1 hour away - is only a yellow zone, so you would probably not even consider that a dark site. There is a blue/green site about 85 miles away, a blue site at 280 miles and 3-1/2 hours, and a grey site (the darkest east of the Mississippi) about 200 miles and 3 hours away. But I think the most rational and cost-effective protocol is see all you can see from where you are, and save the really faint fuzzies for a dark site.
Quote:
Call me spoiled if you want, but I do not consider even a "green" zone dark skies- not after one sees what the skies look like from a "grey" or "black" zone.
OK, no problem. I'll call you spoiled.
Clear Skies,
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sean,
"Is orange Zone 5 bad???" The short answer: NO!!! Orange skies are fine. Many amateurs who live in cities in white zones trek out to orange zones for a better view of the sky. I grew up in an orange zone. My first telescope was a 4-1/4" Edmund Newt. I could see the summer and winter Milky Way and observed many objects in that orange zone. Now I live in a red/orange zone but can see even more because I have larger scopes, more experience, and have access to good star atlases and finder charts. Don't be discouraged by those who live in dark zones or only observe if they travel to a dark zone. They've been spoiled. See all you can see right where you are. Go to a darkER zone for the rest.
Clear Skies,
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Thanks for the encouragement Sarkikos.
Looks like as cities continue to build up an orange or yellow zone might be a treat!
Sean
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Illinois
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 693
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
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Orange is not good if you went to blue zone or darker! I would take Orange for my backyard because I live in white zone......BAD! Few bright deep sky object in my backyard and lot more show up in the Orange zone and throsands more in blue zone.
I went in gray zone and all I say.....WOW!
You live in Austin and you are lucky that you able to drive a few hours to dark sky while I have to drive 8 hours to gray zone!
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Astronomer since 1975!
Orion 80mm ED refractor and
iOptron CubePro mount
Meade 16" Lightbridge Dobsonian
Orion 10" SkyQuest Classic Dobsonian
Tele Vue Eyepieces
Canon EOS XS 1000D
Orion Planetary 5 mm and
Orion Expanse Wide-Field 6mm eyepiece
4.5" F5 Reflector since 1982!
Orion Narrowband and SkyGlow filters
Member of IDA, let's fight light pollution!
Old Edmund 6"F8...donated to cousins
Super Polaris C8...donated to Byron Observatory in Illinois
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2363
Loc: Arctic
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Orange Zone is certainly better than being in the White Zone. However, nothing beats a pristine sky. Now, color zones are not everything. If you are at higher altitudes, the sky will be much better. I have been to Mt. Lemmon in Arizona and it is in the yellow zone, but the sky is really good, about comparable to a green zone or West Texas if a cold front comes by.
Starwatching in the White Zone is frustrating at times, but I have been able to find many objects in the sky.
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Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
Edited by Ptarmigan (06/04/09 12:09 PM)
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Yeah,
I'm gonna have to start taking advantage of AAS dark site at Lake Buchanan.
A fellow list member has invited me to the Houston Astronomical Societies dark site. I saw from the LP map that it is actually in an orange zone!
Guess its still way better than viewing from the city!
Sean
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Illinois,
Quote:
Orange is not good if you went to blue zone or darker! I would take Orange for my backyard because I live in white zone......BAD!
It's all relative. Many amateurs in white zones travel to orange zones for "dark skies," those in red zones travel to yellow zones, those in orange zones travel to green. Those in blue zones are just plain spoiled. Those in grey or black zones are probably living on a remote mountain or on the side of a volcanoe in the Pacific.
But orange zones are good enough!
"Relatively" Clear Skies,
Mike
"See all you can see right where you are!"
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Funny that ya'll say the winter Milky Way is dimmer than summer.
The section between Perseus and Cassiopeia is reasonably bright, though nowhere near as bright as the Cygnus Star Cloud, much less the Scutum and Sagittarius Star Clouds. From Auriga through Puppis, the Milky Way is really pretty subtle.
No doubt you see the Milky Way better in the winter because transparency is better then. Much of the southeastern U.S. has consistently terrible transparency all summer long.
But I'm baffled by your comment about 3 a.m. At 3 a.m. in the winter, the Milky Way is very, very low in the sky, making it relatively lackluster even from pristine locations.
--------------------
Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I sure hope I am in a yellow zone!
From the LP map, I am in the middle of an orange zone. But my subdivision has dim lighted streets and lots of "green belt". Sometimes coming home at night I have trouble getting the key in the door. So it can be dark.
Best bet would be to get an SQM or SQM-L and see how bad your skies really are.
For anybody seriously interested in correlating their skies with their color zone on the Light Pollution Atlas, see my thread on the Traveling SQM-L in the General Observing Forum. I suppose I should have put that thread in this forum, but I'm not about to change it now.
Anyway, the SQM-L has begun to travel, and new volunteers are welcome. My own measurements -- which I'll post to the Sky & Telescope website in my "copious spare time"  cast serious doubt on the color zones. I still don't doubt that they're accurate plus or minus one zone. But one zone covers a 3-fold change in the light pollution, which is a huge amount.
--------------------
Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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