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brianb11213
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/25/09
Posts: 2105
Loc: 55.215N 6.554W
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Quote:
Is orange still considered OK?
No, IMO nothing less than black is, but it may be tolerable .... in fact orange is indistinguishable from the best when the Moon is near full.
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DeanS
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 950
Loc: Nicholasville, Kentucky
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I am in the orange zone but close to the yellow. However I have to wonder how accurate these maps are anymore as development is heading my way and the map has not changed for some time.
My skies are getting worse, and appear really bad after I get back from a dark sky star party like TSP. My local SQM reading are 19.50 - 19.80 on a good night which is a far cry from those 21+ readings at the Prude Ranch.
I used to be able to pick out M31 but my light pollution is coming from the north so it is near impossible anymore.
So my only true enjoyment is imaging but that is becoming more difficult to do LGRB. Looks like more narrowband is in my future.
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AP1200GTO AP900GTO
TOA-150 Tak E160
C9.25 Tak FS60C
SXV-H9 ST2000XM STV
8" LX200GPS
Meade 12" Lightbridge
Moonlite Focusers
www.doghouseastronomy.com
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Terrible < bad < OK < good < better < great < perfect < pluperfect
White < red < orange < yellow < green < blue < grey < black
Therefore, orange = OK
Is it relatively clear now? 
Oh, yes, and blue = spoiled.
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Quote:
I am in the orange zone but close to the yellow. ... My skies are getting worse, and appear really bad after I get back from a dark sky star party like TSP.
What is "TSP"? The only TSP I know is Tuckahoe State Park, but that is on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, a long haul from Kentucky, and the zone at Tuckahoe is "only" yellow.
Quote:
I used to be able to pick out M31 but my light pollution is coming from the north so it is near impossible anymore.
What? I don't understand that. I'm in the middle of a red zone (supposedly) but I can see M31 naked eye on any fairly clear night. No problem. Most of my LP is from the north, too. I don't see how that gets in the way of seeing M31. I don't get it. I can only think of three possible explanations: (1) These designated zones are all screwed up, (2) My eyes are super-sensitive (I dont' think so), or (3) Some of you folks have been so spoiled by trips to dark sites you forgot how to use your eyes in more light polluted areas. 
Quote:
So my only true enjoyment is imaging but that is becoming more difficult to do LGRB. Looks like more narrowband is in my future.
There are thousands of objects to see in orange skies, more than most people could ever see in a whole lifetime. Once again, I don't understand ... I guess I'm just too old school: no goto and no go to dark sites, or at least not very often.
Mike
See all you can see right where you are!
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Hey Tony,
Guess I am using "Milky Way" to describe a zenith full of stars.
In the winter here, late at night, the sky fills with stars and looks very transparent. I guess the humidity is lower in the winter and the sky appears more clear.
Sean
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Quote:
Oh, yes, and blue = spoiled.
My first and only time at blue skies was at the AAS public viewing at Lake Buchanan.
Just unbelievable.
Sean
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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But seeing IS believing!
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I am in the orange zone but close to the yellow. However I have to wonder how accurate these maps are anymore as development is heading my way and the map has not changed for some time.
My skies are getting worse, and appear really bad after I get back from a dark sky star party like TSP. My local SQM reading are 19.50 - 19.80 on a good night which is a far cry from those 21+ readings at the Prude Ranch.
I generally get readings of 19.7-19.9 at my astronomy club's observing field on the red/orange border, and Sue French gets around 20.3 from her orange-zone backyard. So I'd say that readings of 19.5-19.8 are pretty bad for the orange zone, and perhaps more typical of the red zone around Boston.
I'll point out that the population of the northeastern U.S. has grown very little for the last half century, while it's exploded across much of the southern and western U.S. So it would hardly be surprising if the decade-old Light Pollution Atlas understated light pollution much more severely in the South than the North.
Quote:
I used to be able to pick out M31 but my light pollution is coming from the north so it is near impossible anymore.
I have to admit to some scepticism. The direction of light pollution shouldn't matter much, since M31 is near the zenith at its highest. And M31 is extremely easy to see at my observing club's site. In fact, I've pointed it out to complete newbies at sites with SQM readings around 19.0, which is dramatically brighter than your skies.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Tony,
Did you ever get any bits on borrowing the SQM unit?
Also, what is the correlation of SQM measurements to LP?
Sean
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Well, Sean, if you thought a blue zone was great, you need to see a black zone. It's not nearly as big a jump in appearance as from yellow to blue, but it's significant.
The Milky Way is not an abundance of faint naked-eye stars, though faint naked-eye stars do make up a portion of its glow. No, most of the glow is stars fainter than magnitude 7. You really need to see the Milky Way from a dark site. Here's a little tip: next TRANSPARENT new moon, go out to a dark site (when I say "dark", I mean at least a blue zone) and wait for Saggitarius to rise up to a significant altitude, and then come back and report your findings  If you've never seen the summer milky way before in all it's glory, don't bother taking a telescope, you won't need it. Maybe bring a pair of bionoculars. When I was out in Fort Davis from May 14 to June 1 this year, I had to fight the urge to just sit back and stare at the incredible Milky Way. Keep in mind that I'm used to dark skies and I had a 25" scope to tempt me away from naked-eye viewing too.
Really the problem with the summer Milky Way is that weather typically only cooperates and allows you to look at it early in the mornings of April, May, and early June, and then, early in the evenings on late September or October nights, after Sagittarius is already well past meridian 
Personally, the way I see it, if you can't see the Gegenschein (when the Gegenschein is not superimposed over the Milky Way), then the site's too light polluted, and you should try to go out to an even darker site at least 2-3 times a year. Personally, I'm surprised at the number of people that find orange zones or even yellow zones acceptable- I'm glad that so many people are able to enjoy astronomy under such conditions. To be honest though, we shouldn't have to settle for orange zones, considering the current age we live in when people are constantly talking about energy conservation, greenhouse gases, and energy independence. Someone needs to call up Mr. Obama and talk to him about light pollution
Edited by tatarjj (06/06/09 05:04 AM)
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Did you ever get any bites on borrowing the SQM unit?
Yes, it's now out on loan, and there are two people on the waiting list.
Quote:
Also, what is the correlation of SQM measurements to LP?
That's exactly what the SQM does -- measure light pollution. If you tell me that your SQM reading (taken properly) is 17.5, then I know that you live in a densely populated area and can't see the Milky Way. If your SQM reading is 19.5, then you probably live in a suburb, can see the Milky Way fairly easily, and can make out some detail in many galaxies through a telescope. If you get 21.5, then you live in a location that's anywhere from pretty dark to very dark, and can see the Milky Way criss-crossed with dark lanes.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Really the problem with the summer Milky Way is that weather typically only cooperates and allows you to look at it early in the mornings of April, May, and early June, and then, early in the evenings on late September or October nights, after Sagittarius is already well past meridian.
Needless to say, that all depends where you live. Here in New England, we usually get at least a few nights with excellent transparency in July, and by late August, the sky is often as good as it ever gets. And on the West Coast, aside from forest fires, June through August is the very best time for stargazing.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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tatarjj
Quote:
Personally, the way I see it, if you can't see the Gegenschein (when the Gegenschein is not superimposed over the Milky Way), then the site's too light polluted, and you should try to go out to an even darker site at least 2-3 times a year.
2-3 times a year. That's the crucial point here. I agree. I try to get out to darker sites several times a year. But remember: Your best telescope is the one you use the most. Just as truely, your best SKIES are the ones you use the most! I see more from my surburban skies because I can observe under them whenever I want. Weather permitting, I can take my scope out beside my house 200 times or so in a year. 2-3 times a year just doesn't cut it. For most people, dark sky observing is just tourist astronomy. I pity the folks who don't live near a dark site AND only use a telescope at a dark site. They are more to be pitied than those who live in the middle of a white or red zone but take out their scopes or binos as much as they can to observe under their light-polluted skies.
Mike
See all you can see right where you are.
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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I took a peak last night at 4:00 a.m. central time. The moon was setting and still had the sky pretty lit up. Then in the East the sky was already bright from the rising sun.
Zenith was good and I even saw a sattalite passing by.
Just found out that my neighboor is adding lights to his trees! 
Hope he just uses them for special occasions.
Sean
Edited by mypontiac (06/06/09 12:20 PM)
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sean,
I think satellites are cool when I happen to see one go over head. Sometimes I even see them scuttle through the field of view when I'm looking in a scope. But I really don't look for them. I can imagine they can be a pain to APers sometimes.
Let's see. June 6th? Is that a special occasion? It's the D-Day Invasion. But other than that I don't think so. Yeah, let's hope your neighbor only turns on the lights during really special occasions, and not just to celebrate the sunset. If you have your own yard, at least you can put up light shades. I live in a condo, so I'm at the mercy of the neighborhood lights. That's why I usually don't even bother to set up until after at least 11 pm. Star atlases, maps and books that assume prime viewing time is 9pm have got it all wrong as far as I'm concerned. The sky's clearer anyway after about 11 or 12 at night.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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We at the mercy of others, eh?
Guess time will tell.
I've asked him so many times to turn off his porch lights on the weekend. He keeps them on 24/7. Almost like he was taunting me? 
I finally asked him if I can unscrew the lights. He said OK!
So I guess I will be doing whatever I can.
Sean
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sean,
I've never asked anyone to turn off their lights. About a year ago my family and I were at the side of our building observing Jupiter and the usual showcase objects. The neighbor across from us was sitting outside with her light on doing whatever folks do when they sit outside in the evening with their light on. (I don't get it.) So I told my little daughter to go across and ask her to come over and take a look with us. I showed her Jupiter, the Ring, and some other pretty items, and we all talked for awhile. Since then, they seem to be somewhat understanding. Although they still put their light on, they do to turn it off more quickly if they see me out there, and they don't leave it on any night as long as they used to. The guy behind is a pain sometimes. But once he turns his out about 10 or 11, he usually only puts it on again, if at all, for about 15 minutes at 2 am or so, probably to deal with a pet. So I've never gone over and asked him to turn it off. I don't want to make any neighbor feel either obligated to me or that they are in a position of power over me. That way, hopefully, they won't leave the lights on all night to spite me. Leave well enough alone.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Yeah,
I am not going to bug him about this new stuff. I can always carry my NP 101 down to the ball park behind our poperty.
But since he did say I can unscrew the porch lights in the front I will still use that opportunity! 
It really makes a difference in seeing. Otherwise, my eyes never get night adjusted and I lose interest.
Sean
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
Quote:
Is orange still considered OK?
No, IMO nothing less than black is, but it may be tolerable .... in fact orange is indistinguishable from the best when the Moon is near full.
Well, I call green skies "the beginning of heaven". That's the darkest I've been at. The naked eye impact was simply stunning. I live in red but don't observe there because of lights trees and houses. I routinely observe at a local orange site only when transparency is above average. And was quite satisfied with the orange site until I observed at the green.  Now I have to drive 50 minutes to a yellow site,just to ease the pain a little.  It seems like going from red to orange is a pretty big jump and from orange to yellow is another big jump. But from yellow to green seemed enormous! Maybe I'm spoiled too?
Don
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Matt Lindsey
member
Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 94
Loc: Baltimore, MD, U.S.A.
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I think it's important to not get too caught up in what "color" zone you're in, especially as a direct correlation to what/how much you can see. The demarcations are blurry and suspect anyway, as Mr. Flanders keeps pointing out. I've seen the horsehead nebula from the orange--can't be too bad. I think if one can see the Milky Way at all there will be plenty to observe.
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Matt
12" f/4.9 custom strut Dob.
8x56 binos
Member: Howard Astronomical League
Working on: Herschel I and II lists, RASC challenge objects.
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