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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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There might be land for sale rather cheaply in a green, blue, or gray zone. That's what I sought for several years, and finally located in a gray zone. There are many advantages to owning the site.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3468
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
The only stars i can see at nite, are the big ones Arcturas,Antares,Vega,Altair,Deneb. I can see the 3 star handle on the big dipper but not the bucket.
Have you had your eyes checked recently? Seeing that few stars sounds to me like vision that's undercorrected by at least two diopters. From my local urban park deep in the white zone, I can see 6 of the 7 stars in the Big Dipper easily even when it's at its lowest in the sky -- which it's not, at this time of year -- and I can also see Mizar with just a little effort. When the Big Dipper is overhead, all 7 stars are blindingly obvious.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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caheaton
super member
Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 157
Loc: SW Ohio
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"Seriously, where would you go once you enter the "green zone"? Somebodys driveway? Stop the car on an abandoned country road?"
I did that a few years back to view Comet Hale-Bopp. I hopped in the car and just headed east (away from town) towards darker skies. When I reached a likely area on a rural road, I just pulled over and spent maybe half an hour observing. Sometime you just gotta do what you gotta do... 
Craig
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hm insulators
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 1357
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That's kind of what I do. When I drive from Phoenix to Los Angeles, there are two or three exits of the freeway out in the desert where I can get off, park a short distance away and haul out the binoculars. After a short while, I get back on the freeway and continue on my way.
I'm going to try to do that at least once this week, as a matter of fact as I go to California.
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2355
Loc: Arctic
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I starwatch in the White Zone and if conditions permit, I can actually see globular clusters that are not listed as being visible in the urban sky. M53 and M79 come to mind. In a urban sky, I mostly look at the Moon, planets, and star clusters. I also look at planetary nebulas, bright nebulas, and a galaxy, in which Andromeda is visible. If I was in a dark sky, I would change my focus to galaxies and faint nebulas.
The only time I don't starwatch is during the summer, when there are too many mosquitos buzzing around. Also, the sky is very turbulen from all that moisture in the air.
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Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
Quote:
The only stars i can see at nite, are the big ones Arcturas,Antares,Vega,Altair,Deneb. I can see the 3 star handle on the big dipper but not the bucket.
Have you had your eyes checked recently? Seeing that few stars sounds to me like vision that's undercorrected by at least two diopters. From my local urban park deep in the white zone, I can see 6 of the 7 stars in the Big Dipper easily even when it's at its lowest in the sky -- which it's not, at this time of year -- and I can also see Mizar with just a little effort. When the Big Dipper is overhead, all 7 stars are blindingly obvious.
Ok maybe i exagurated a little, i can on a non cloudy nite see enough stars to not be able to count them all, but hey are so dim it makes it hard to see them at all. The light in my neighborhood when i look up are glaring right in my eyes and i have to take my arm and cover the area they are in just be able to see the sky. Tonight is suppose to be a good night, clear sky's no clouds, and cool temps. I will be taking my telescope out and trying to find the dumbell nebula and m51 again. I will also take note and count as many stars as i can see without and with my glass's and post back here
Actually yes i have gotten vision checked about a month ago. My vision is 20/40, and using glass's only helps out what i can already see. Im not spotting star's at a local park like you im spotting stars at my house in this kind of light pollution. Im also on the border of RED/WHITE right by D.C and Springfield. When its cloudy here at night you can see the whole sky is lit up orange from the street lights and lamp posts that you see in my picture. All of lakeridge/woodbridge is townhouses that each have orange lights on there steets and lamp posts in front of there house. I am also close to i95, while glass's do help and yes i was shocked my vision went from 20/10 to 20/40 from 14 years old to 23 (i wish i knew why my vision went bad the doctor blames me being on computers to much meh) Glass's help alot but i still can barely or not even make out the bucket with them on. It almost makes me wanna cry when i found my vision went to 20/40 and i need glass's to look up at night at only 23... I noticed it doesnt matter when i look in the eyepeices tho glass's dont change that so at least i dont have to use them for looking in the eyepeice or else id give up completetly on this hobby lol.
Edited by candymancan (07/13/09 07:54 PM)
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I'll probably just suffer lol. To lazy to drive 1-2 hours to look at the sky. Someone mentioned the local astronomy club here is doing some kinda sky campout or whatever its called. There going to a park in a yellow zone 1 hour from me. I dunno if thats even worth doing TBH. Iv lived in this sky so long tho i forgot what it looks like to in the other zones so maybe im just being stubborn.
Yes,you're being stubborn. There's a huge difference between your red/white skies and a yellow LP zone. Actually there's even a pretty big difference between red and orange.
Remember,I live in pretty much the same LP ghetto as you.  And I regularly travel to local orange and yellow zones. Why? Because I like DSO's best.And that's what one must do in order to see detail in them.
I think you should go to that star party. If you don't like it,you can blame me. 
Don
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I also plan to visit a green/blue site that is about 1-1/2 hours from where I live.
Mike
I recently visited a blue/green zone in PA. About 1.5 hours east of Cherry Springs. Much better than yellow. More stars and they're very bright. I spent a lot of time naked eye observing. Too bad the Milky Way wasn't up. Galaxies looked tremendous compared to yellow. Not much difference in globs,though. I spent a lot of time just saying holy s***! 
Don
Edit; I went on a night of above average transparency, average seeing and about 40% humidity.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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John,
Quote:
Pensions go much farther in depressed areas that have dark skies. I am getting ready to start drawing mine next year. Moving to darker skies. Maybe wash dishes part time. 
That sounds very tempting ... except for the dishwashing part. Bused tables, too. Been there, done that, but not since my teens.  Seriously, though, one thing to think about when retiring is health care. How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies? It might be better to just buy a few acres, pave a drive way, keep the land cleared out, and take your scope there when you want dark skies. Why live there? Just hope that the folks who own the neighboring acres don't sell out to developers, and the orange or worse skies will follow you there.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Ptarmigan,
Quote:
I starwatch in the White Zone and if conditions permit, I can actually see globular clusters that are not listed as being visible in the urban sky. M53 and M79 come to mind.
Don't listen to the "experts" about what you can or cannot see in white or red zones. Sometimes it just takes some effort, experience, and knowledge of some techniques. I've seen M33 often in the red zone, and I've even managed M101. But I must admit it would be a lot easier to see them - and they'd look a lot better - in a darker site.
Quote:
In a urban sky, I mostly look at the Moon, planets, and star clusters.
Actually, it might be easier to find and observe some star clusters in the white or red zone, because you can't see as many stars, which could allow you to distinguish the cluster more easily from the background star fields. When I visited a yellow zone recently, it did seem more difficult finding some clusters than back home in the red. Something to think about. 
Quote:
I also look at planetary nebulas, bright nebulas, and a galaxy, in which Andromeda is visible. If I was in a dark sky, I would change my focus to galaxies and faint nebulas.
Makes perfect sense to me! A corollary would be to NOT spend an inordinate amount of time looking for the fainter fuzzies in light polluted areas. Just a thought. That might be my protocol in the future.
Quote:
The only time I don't starwatch is during the summer, when there are too many mosquitos buzzing around. Also, the sky is very turbulen from all that moisture in the air.
My problem season for stargazing is the Winter. I hate the cold; it takes all the joy out of observing. The mosquitoes I can stand. Just be sure to spray a lot of Deet on you, bring the can along, and wear long pants, long socks, long-sleeved shirt, and a hoodie.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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Quote:
John,
Quote:
Pensions go much farther in depressed areas that have dark skies. I am getting ready to start drawing mine next year. Moving to darker skies. Maybe wash dishes part time.
That sounds very tempting ... except for the dishwashing part. Bused tables, too. Been there, done that, but not since my teens. Seriously, though, one thing to think about when retiring is health care. How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies? It might be better to just buy a few acres, pave a drive way, keep the land cleared out, and take your scope there when you want dark skies. Why live there? Just hope that the folks who own the neighboring acres don't sell out to developers, and the orange or worse skies will follow you there.
Mike
Probably won't live there. No reliable water source, and electricity is so-so. It will not be developed for the next 20 years, if even then. That area has been losing population since the mid 90's. But, I do plan to move to the other side of this town, on the edge, out of the most taxed district in the state, which will put me about 15 miles and 30 minutes closer to the dark site, making it a 45 minute drive. That will be only a 25 to 30 minute drive to all services, Wal-Mart, hospital, etc. A 45 minute rural drive back home from the dark site is much better than a 75 minute one, with the last 30 minutes being speed zones and congested. I am living on the opposite side of town right now from my 18-acrs dark site.
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2355
Loc: Arctic
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Quote:
Don't listen to the "experts" about what you can or cannot see in white or red zones. Sometimes it just takes some effort, experience, and knowledge of some techniques. I've seen M33 often in the red zone, and I've even managed M101. But I must admit it would be a lot easier to see them - and they'd look a lot better - in a darker site.
When I saw them, the sky condition was transparent after a cold front and storm passed by in winter and early spring. I would not rule out seeing M33 in the White Zone.
Quote:
Actually, it might be easier to find and observe some star clusters in the white or red zone, because you can't see as many stars, which could allow you to distinguish the cluster more easily from the background star fields. When I visited a yellow zone recently, it did seem more difficult finding some clusters than back home in the red. Something to think about.
Not for me. I find these objects naturally.
Quote:
Makes perfect sense to me! A corollary would be to NOT spend an inordinate amount of time looking for the fainter fuzzies in light polluted areas. Just a thought. That might be my protocol in the future.
Oh yeah.
Quote:
My problem season for stargazing is the Winter. I hate the cold; it takes all the joy out of observing. The mosquitoes I can stand. Just be sure to spray a lot of Deet on you, bring the can along, and wear long pants, long socks, long-sleeved shirt, and a hoodie.
Cold weather is refreshing and sky condition is most likely to be the best for starwatching. Summer does have many great objects to look at.
--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
Edited by Ptarmigan (07/13/09 11:59 PM)
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Don, Quote:
I recently visited a blue/green zone in PA. About 1.5 hours east of Cherry Springs. Much better than yellow. More stars and they're very bright. I spent a lot of time naked eye observing. Too bad the Milky Way wasn't up. Galaxies looked tremendous compared to yellow. Not much difference in globs,though. I spent a lot of time just saying holy s***!
Cherry Springs and its environ is a bit too far for me to trek. It would take about 5, almost 6 hours to get there. For me, it'd make more sense to go southwest to Spruce Knob, at the Mountain Institute. That would be about a 4 hour trip to a grey site, darkest east of the Mississippi, so they say. I'm going back to Tuckahoe next week for the New Moon. Yellow is alright with me. There are great skies there. In August I'm going to try out a green/blue site that's only 1-1/2 hours from my house. I'll have to buy a tent, though, instead of renting a cabin. I like a cabin much better; more secure, you can actually lock the door. I'll have to work out the logistics of using (relatively) expensive astro gear out of a tent in a semi-public area. Not my cup of tea, but what the heck: it's a green/blue site! But I won't let the clear skies spoil me. Often a close Red Zone is better than a far Blue one. IMHO
Quote:
I spent a lot of time naked eye observing. Too bad the Milky Way wasn't up. Galaxies looked tremendous compared to yellow. Not much difference in globs,though. I spent a lot of time just saying holy s***!
After my experience at Tuckahoe, I'm tempted to leave the 10" Newt at home and just double-team my 25x100 bino and ST80 on the SkyView AZ mount, and bring a couple binos for my wife and daughter. Wide field views of the Milky Way are incredible at a dark site!
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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KD5NRH
member
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Stephenville TX
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Quote:
How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies?
If there is a hospital, any lack of technology is more than made up for by how quickly you can get in if something goes wrong. When I lived in Dallas, there were a few people that would drive an hour or more to get to a rural ER for anything that wasn't immediately life-threatening because they would spend longer than that waiting in most of the city ERs if they weren't actually bleeding all over the place. It's also nice to deal with doctors who remember you, and only have to check the chart for the exact numbers.
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
After my experience at Tuckahoe, I'm tempted to leave the 10" Newt at home and just double-team my 25x100 bino and ST80 on the SkyView AZ mount, and bring a couple binos for my wife and daughter. Wide field views of the Milky Way are incredible at a dark site!
Mike
Leave the 10" home?  Well, maybe you'd be better off that way. Less chance of getting spoiled by the high detail in DSO's. Just to tempt you - From the dark site (High Knob) that I went to, Galaxies showed more detail through my 8" Dob than at my local yellow zone using my 12" dob! Just don't forget to bring sunglasses to shield your eyes from all those bright stars!
Don
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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Quote:
How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies?
If I worried about things such as that all the time, I would never leave home. Living to the fullest requires taking chances. IOW, it DOES NOT concern me much. Anyway, the rural areas around here have heli-medivac, and memberships are relatively cheap.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Don,
Quote:
Leave the 10" home? Well, maybe you'd be better off that way. Less chance of getting spoiled by the high detail in DSO's. Just to tempt you - From the dark site (High Knob) that I went to, Galaxies showed more detail through my 8" Dob than at my local yellow zone using my 12" dob! Just don't forget to bring sunglasses to shield your eyes from all those bright stars!
If I had enough room in the crossover, I'd take it all with us - 10" and mount, eyepiece case, finder case, portable power supply and dew controls, 25x100, ST80, SkyView AZ, three smaller binos for each of us, etc., etc. - but I doubt if I could fit it all in. I suppose I could always free up some space and leave my wife or daughter home ... just kidding! I do enjoy observing sky vistas with the big bino, though. Like I said, faint fuzzies aren't everything, and I won't let the dark skies spoil me for my mag 5.5 skies here in the burbs. Not gonna happen.  Though, I'd hate to miss seeing M51, M101, M31, M33, etc. with a moderate-size scope in a dark site. So far I've found an orange site, a yellow site, and a green/blue zone site within 1-1/2 hour from my red zone. I intend to use them all. Including the red zone. Maybe we'll go to Spruce Knob, a grey zone, next summer.
By the way, where is Big Knob? I know about Spruce Knob but not Big Knob.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Don,
Excuse me, I meant "High Knob," not "Big Knob." Too many "knobs." What the heck is a "knob" in terms of geography, anyway?! Is a "knob" the opposite of a "holler?"
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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High Knob is about 80 miles east of Cherry Springs. It's listed as a blue zone. But it's really a blue and green zone depending on which direction you're looking in.
I went there about 2 months ago. That was the darkest sky I've been to. At first I couldn't recognize any constellations - too many damn stars in the way. Even the plain old big dipper looked amazing. It looked almost 3-D with extremely bright stars against an inky black zenith. Even though I'm a faint fuzzy type of guy,I could have easily kept myself busy all night with binos and naked eye observing.
The only thing bad about High Knob is the north and eastern horizons are blocked by trees up to about 40 degrees.
Knob = protrusion,no?
Don
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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I have been in blue zones, gray zones, and black zones. The differences between them are subtle IMO, especially near the zenith. Elevation makes a difference too. IMO a black zone at sea level might not be as good as a gray zone at 2,000 feet.
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