mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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I looked up my LP for Austin, Tx. and I am in an orange Zone 5. On perfect nights (mostly winter) I can see the Milky Way at zenith.
Seeing is best after midnight and an hour and a half before dawn. Guess this is to be expected in this region.
Looking at the LP map I feel that I am actually pretty fortunate to be close to a city and still have Zone 5 skies. Looks like LP is really taking over most city areas. I am originally from New Orleans and never bothered to look up. White Zone! 
Is orange still considered OK?
I can still see M31 with my binos, which I am happy to report.
Sean
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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Orange isn't too bad for a near-city or city LP level.
Take a drive to a blue zone or better sometime, though, and see what you're missing.
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby. Call me spoiled if you want, but I do not consider even a "green" zone dark skies- not after one sees what the skies look like from a "grey" or "black" zone.
Since I am moving to Austin in two months, maybe I'll have to take you out to a real dark sky site  Looking at the LP maps, dark skies (grey zones) are only a something like a 75 mile drive away, and truely dark-as-space is a weekend trip to the Davis mountains (6-7 hour drive) away.
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John T.
Austin, TX
25" f/4.2 Dob
18" Obsession #701
4" Stellar Vue Achromat
8X56 Binos
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rathbaster
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/21/08
Posts: 539
Loc: East Bridgewater, MA
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An orange zone is good for developing your finding skills and testing your patience.
I live and observe under red zoned skies, and run a college observatory under the same skies. I know there are better skies out there, but I rarely see them, so make due with what I have.
-Joe
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Bridgewater State College Observatory
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby.
Sue French, author of Celestial Sampler and regular columnist for Sky & Telescope, does most of her observing from her backyard in the orange zone. And there, through her 4-inch refractor, she routinely observes fine details in faint objects that elude experienced observers with scopes three times as big under pristine skies.
The lesson is that although dark skies are immensely important for deep-sky observing, experience and attitude are just as important. At some level, deep-sky observing is all about challenging and pushing the threshold for seeing objects at the edge of visibility. You reach that threshold sooner under bright skies, but observing regular galaxies in the orange zone uses exactly the same skills as observing low-surface-brightness galaxies under dark skies.
Mind you, not all orange-zone sites are the same. Even according to Cinzano's original study, there's a 3-fold variation in sky brightness from the bright edge of the orange zone to the dark edge. And some recent experiments that I've done suggest that the map is even less precise than that.
Nonetheless, if you can see the winter Milky Way, which is much fainter than the summer Milky Way, your site can't be all that bad. I have probably done more than 50% of all my deep-sky observing under skies that bright or brighter.
On the other hand, it's very easy for you to get to much darker skies, and that would certainly be well worth doing -- at least to see for yourself what the difference is.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Thanks for the encouragement Tony.
Actually, I have been to Lake Buchanan for viewing with the Austin Astronomical Society. I have never seen skies so dark (blue zone). You can't even make out details in the person standing next to you.
The Milky Way was breath taking. I can't imaging a brown or black zone! 
So the summer Milky Way is brighter? Hopefully we will have some good skies and I will be able to check it out.
I have a NP 101 on the way and am hoping to get some good views. A member in a red zone has posted good seeing with it.
Sean
Edited by mypontiac (06/04/09 01:38 PM)
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby.
Sue French, author of Celestial Sampler and regular columnist for Sky & Telescope, does most of her observing from her backyard in the orange zone. And there, through her 4-inch refractor, she routinely observes fine details in faint objects that elude experienced observers with scopes three times as big under pristine skies.
I find this statement very hard to believe. I've read Sue French's column and have not come across any of these claims. Could you give an example?
Quote:
The lesson is that although dark skies are immensely important for deep-sky observing, experience and attitude are just as important.
I do not fully agree here. While experience is very important, I've had stark newbies to the hobby step up to the eyepiece of my telescope and see details in objects that would be completely invisible from a city- example, the Horeshead nebula. Yes, I've had beginners see it through my 18" from a dark site. I've had people who have never even looked through a telescope gasp at the detail visible in the Veil nebula or M51 at a public star gazes at dark sky sites- again, both objects you couldn't expect to see much of under strong city light pollution. I feel that while experience is important, light pollution trumps all.
HOWEVER, attitude is the most important factor in determining how much FUN you have, definately. If you have a mindset that allows you to have fun under light polluted skies- like Sue French- then who cares how light polluted it is. It's all about enjoying the universe.
Quote:
Mind you, not all orange-zone sites are the same. Even according to Cinzano's original study, there's a 3-fold variation in sky brightness from the bright edge of the orange zone to the dark edge. And some recent experiments that I've done suggest that the map is even less precise than that.
Nonetheless, if you can see the winter Milky Way, which is much fainter than the summer Milky Way, your site can't be all that bad. I have probably done more than 50% of all my deep-sky observing under skies that bright or brighter.
On the other hand, it's very easy for you to get to much darker skies, and that would certainly be well worth doing -- at least to see for yourself what the difference is.
All very true- though, if he can see the winter milky way, it makes me wonder if he might be in a yellow zone.
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John T.
Austin, TX
25" f/4.2 Dob
18" Obsession #701
4" Stellar Vue Achromat
8X56 Binos
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
If he can see the winter milky way, it makes me wonder if he might be in a yellow zone.
I have been able to see the summer Milky Way pretty easily everywhere in the red zone around Boston where I've tried looking for it. In the orange zone (at least here in Boston), I would expect to see considerable structure in the Milky Way, though obviously nothing like in darker locations.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5023
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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Go to a site in the blue or gray zone and you'll see straight away the sky at your home is badly light polluted. I have barely seen the summer Milky Way faintly from my house, but the light pollution here is severe, even with my light screen up. I'm right in the middle of the red zone. During the winter, it's impossible to see no matter how clear it is, it's just too many lights here to see it. That said, I do see lots of objects from home, washed out and all. It doesn't mean that every time you want to look at something other than the Moon or planets that you must drive three hours to a dark area. It does mean that you'll want to save the faint and challenging objects for the times when you can take the time to do that. Your skies are far better than many urban residents, because there are many white zoned cities where you couldn't see M-31 at all with binoculars and just barely with a 10-inch telescope. I make the most of whatever sites I can observe from, including my front lawn. One thing that does help a lot while observing from urban and suburban areas are digital setting circles. If you can't star hop due to light pollution, you can see objects that otherwise would be missed using digital setting circles.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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tatarjj,
I sure hope I am in a yellow zone! 
From the LP map, I am in the middle of an orange zone. But my subdivision has dim lighted streets and lots of "green belt". Sometimes coming home at night I have trouble getting the key in the door. So it can be dark.
Funny that ya'll say the winter Milky Way is dimmer than summer. I usually see a very lit up sky on crisp clear nights. Especially around 3:00 am.
Now is a bad time for me to go out and judge since the moon is dominating the sky.
In the fall it is very easy to take a pair of binos and find M31 and double cluster.
Stars are pretty plentiful at zenith.
Horizon tends to be washed out naked eye.
Sean
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s58y
Postmaster
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 5494
Loc: Eastern NY
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Quote:
I sure hope I am in a yellow zone!
From the LP map, I am in the middle of an orange zone. But my subdivision has dim lighted streets and lots of "green belt". Sometimes coming home at night I have trouble getting the key in the door. So it can be dark.
Best bet would be to get an SQM or SQM-L and see how bad your skies really are. The zones on the map are based on data that is over 10 years old, and some aeras may be much brighter now, others less so, and maybe some are even darker. Also, sky brightness will vary a lot from day to day and season to season. Maybe your skies are darker in the winter, unlike around here (leaves vs snow)?
At my orange zone location near the border with yellow, the SQM usually read 20.25 to 20.4 on good nights, and once read 20.55.
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Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis
Old camera lenses: 800mm f/5.6, 180mm f/3.4
AP900, Barndoor tracker
http://www.pbase.com/s58y
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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tatarjj,
Quote:
Well, orange is quite terrible to observe under. If I only had an orange zone to observe under, I would quit the hobby.
My area is supposedly in the middle of a red zone, though I think it actually tends toward the orange end of that zone. It might be a challenge or discouragement to SOME to observe in the red/orange zone. However, I've seen plenty here and have not lost my enthusiasm.  I have no problem seeing M31 naked eye on a clear night. I routinely see M33 in 10x50 binos. In the summer I can see naked eye many of the Messier objects in Sagittarius and Scorpio. I've seen the spiral arms and bridge in M51 through my 8" Newt. I observed M101 in my 10" Newt. My wife and daughter have also seen most of these objects. I've bagged all the Messier list except M74, and I'll do that this summer.... and all without a goto. Also, many NGC objects are visible from my light-polluted area. I'm not about to quit!
Now, I admit there are some types of objects that are very difficult or impossible to see from my area: fainter galaxies and extended objects with low surface brightness, such as the North America nebula, the Veil, the Witch, etc. These are best reserved for new moon weekend trips to a dark site. The nearest dark site that I've visited - 50 miles and 1 hour away - is only a yellow zone, so you would probably not even consider that a dark site. There is a blue/green site about 85 miles away, a blue site at 280 miles and 3-1/2 hours, and a grey site (the darkest east of the Mississippi) about 200 miles and 3 hours away. But I think the most rational and cost-effective protocol is see all you can see from where you are, and save the really faint fuzzies for a dark site.
Quote:
Call me spoiled if you want, but I do not consider even a "green" zone dark skies- not after one sees what the skies look like from a "grey" or "black" zone.
OK, no problem. I'll call you spoiled.
Clear Skies,
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
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OptiView LPR 10x50
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BV-125C
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sean,
"Is orange Zone 5 bad???" The short answer: NO!!! Orange skies are fine. Many amateurs who live in cities in white zones trek out to orange zones for a better view of the sky. I grew up in an orange zone. My first telescope was a 4-1/4" Edmund Newt. I could see the summer and winter Milky Way and observed many objects in that orange zone. Now I live in a red/orange zone but can see even more because I have larger scopes, more experience, and have access to good star atlases and finder charts. Don't be discouraged by those who live in dark zones or only observe if they travel to a dark zone. They've been spoiled. See all you can see right where you are. Go to a darkER zone for the rest.
Clear Skies,
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
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Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Thanks for the encouragement Sarkikos.
Looks like as cities continue to build up an orange or yellow zone might be a treat!
Sean
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Illinois
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 693
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
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Orange is not good if you went to blue zone or darker! I would take Orange for my backyard because I live in white zone......BAD! Few bright deep sky object in my backyard and lot more show up in the Orange zone and throsands more in blue zone.
I went in gray zone and all I say.....WOW!
You live in Austin and you are lucky that you able to drive a few hours to dark sky while I have to drive 8 hours to gray zone!
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Astronomer since 1975!
Orion 80mm ED refractor and
iOptron CubePro mount
Meade 16" Lightbridge Dobsonian
Orion 10" SkyQuest Classic Dobsonian
Tele Vue Eyepieces
Canon EOS XS 1000D
Orion Planetary 5 mm and
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Orion Narrowband and SkyGlow filters
Member of IDA, let's fight light pollution!
Old Edmund 6"F8...donated to cousins
Super Polaris C8...donated to Byron Observatory in Illinois
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2351
Loc: Arctic
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Orange Zone is certainly better than being in the White Zone. However, nothing beats a pristine sky. Now, color zones are not everything. If you are at higher altitudes, the sky will be much better. I have been to Mt. Lemmon in Arizona and it is in the yellow zone, but the sky is really good, about comparable to a green zone or West Texas if a cold front comes by.
Starwatching in the White Zone is frustrating at times, but I have been able to find many objects in the sky.
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Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
Edited by Ptarmigan (06/04/09 12:09 PM)
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Yeah,
I'm gonna have to start taking advantage of AAS dark site at Lake Buchanan.
A fellow list member has invited me to the Houston Astronomical Societies dark site. I saw from the LP map that it is actually in an orange zone!
Guess its still way better than viewing from the city!
Sean
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Illinois,
Quote:
Orange is not good if you went to blue zone or darker! I would take Orange for my backyard because I live in white zone......BAD!
It's all relative. Many amateurs in white zones travel to orange zones for "dark skies," those in red zones travel to yellow zones, those in orange zones travel to green. Those in blue zones are just plain spoiled. Those in grey or black zones are probably living on a remote mountain or on the side of a volcanoe in the Pacific.
But orange zones are good enough!
"Relatively" Clear Skies,
Mike
"See all you can see right where you are!"
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Funny that ya'll say the winter Milky Way is dimmer than summer.
The section between Perseus and Cassiopeia is reasonably bright, though nowhere near as bright as the Cygnus Star Cloud, much less the Scutum and Sagittarius Star Clouds. From Auriga through Puppis, the Milky Way is really pretty subtle.
No doubt you see the Milky Way better in the winter because transparency is better then. Much of the southeastern U.S. has consistently terrible transparency all summer long.
But I'm baffled by your comment about 3 a.m. At 3 a.m. in the winter, the Milky Way is very, very low in the sky, making it relatively lackluster even from pristine locations.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I sure hope I am in a yellow zone!
From the LP map, I am in the middle of an orange zone. But my subdivision has dim lighted streets and lots of "green belt". Sometimes coming home at night I have trouble getting the key in the door. So it can be dark.
Best bet would be to get an SQM or SQM-L and see how bad your skies really are.
For anybody seriously interested in correlating their skies with their color zone on the Light Pollution Atlas, see my thread on the Traveling SQM-L in the General Observing Forum. I suppose I should have put that thread in this forum, but I'm not about to change it now.
Anyway, the SQM-L has begun to travel, and new volunteers are welcome. My own measurements -- which I'll post to the Sky & Telescope website in my "copious spare time"  cast serious doubt on the color zones. I still don't doubt that they're accurate plus or minus one zone. But one zone covers a 3-fold change in the light pollution, which is a huge amount.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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brianb11213
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/25/09
Posts: 2090
Loc: 55.215N 6.554W
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Quote:
Is orange still considered OK?
No, IMO nothing less than black is, but it may be tolerable .... in fact orange is indistinguishable from the best when the Moon is near full.
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DeanS
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 941
Loc: Nicholasville, Kentucky
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I am in the orange zone but close to the yellow. However I have to wonder how accurate these maps are anymore as development is heading my way and the map has not changed for some time.
My skies are getting worse, and appear really bad after I get back from a dark sky star party like TSP. My local SQM reading are 19.50 - 19.80 on a good night which is a far cry from those 21+ readings at the Prude Ranch.
I used to be able to pick out M31 but my light pollution is coming from the north so it is near impossible anymore.
So my only true enjoyment is imaging but that is becoming more difficult to do LGRB. Looks like more narrowband is in my future.
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AP1200GTO AP900GTO
TOA-150 Tak E160
C9.25 Tak FS60C
SXV-H9 ST2000XM STV
8" LX200GPS
Meade 12" Lightbridge
Moonlite Focusers
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Terrible < bad < OK < good < better < great < perfect < pluperfect
White < red < orange < yellow < green < blue < grey < black
Therefore, orange = OK
Is it relatively clear now?
Oh, yes, and blue = spoiled.
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
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Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Quote:
I am in the orange zone but close to the yellow. ... My skies are getting worse, and appear really bad after I get back from a dark sky star party like TSP.
What is "TSP"? The only TSP I know is Tuckahoe State Park, but that is on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, a long haul from Kentucky, and the zone at Tuckahoe is "only" yellow.
Quote:
I used to be able to pick out M31 but my light pollution is coming from the north so it is near impossible anymore.
What? I don't understand that. I'm in the middle of a red zone (supposedly) but I can see M31 naked eye on any fairly clear night. No problem. Most of my LP is from the north, too. I don't see how that gets in the way of seeing M31. I don't get it. I can only think of three possible explanations: (1) These designated zones are all screwed up, (2) My eyes are super-sensitive (I dont' think so), or (3) Some of you folks have been so spoiled by trips to dark sites you forgot how to use your eyes in more light polluted areas. 
Quote:
So my only true enjoyment is imaging but that is becoming more difficult to do LGRB. Looks like more narrowband is in my future.
There are thousands of objects to see in orange skies, more than most people could ever see in a whole lifetime. Once again, I don't understand ... I guess I'm just too old school: no goto and no go to dark sites, or at least not very often.
Mike
See all you can see right where you are!
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Hey Tony,
Guess I am using "Milky Way" to describe a zenith full of stars.
In the winter here, late at night, the sky fills with stars and looks very transparent. I guess the humidity is lower in the winter and the sky appears more clear.
Sean
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Quote:
Oh, yes, and blue = spoiled.
My first and only time at blue skies was at the AAS public viewing at Lake Buchanan.
Just unbelievable.
Sean
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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But seeing IS believing!
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I am in the orange zone but close to the yellow. However I have to wonder how accurate these maps are anymore as development is heading my way and the map has not changed for some time.
My skies are getting worse, and appear really bad after I get back from a dark sky star party like TSP. My local SQM reading are 19.50 - 19.80 on a good night which is a far cry from those 21+ readings at the Prude Ranch.
I generally get readings of 19.7-19.9 at my astronomy club's observing field on the red/orange border, and Sue French gets around 20.3 from her orange-zone backyard. So I'd say that readings of 19.5-19.8 are pretty bad for the orange zone, and perhaps more typical of the red zone around Boston.
I'll point out that the population of the northeastern U.S. has grown very little for the last half century, while it's exploded across much of the southern and western U.S. So it would hardly be surprising if the decade-old Light Pollution Atlas understated light pollution much more severely in the South than the North.
Quote:
I used to be able to pick out M31 but my light pollution is coming from the north so it is near impossible anymore.
I have to admit to some scepticism. The direction of light pollution shouldn't matter much, since M31 is near the zenith at its highest. And M31 is extremely easy to see at my observing club's site. In fact, I've pointed it out to complete newbies at sites with SQM readings around 19.0, which is dramatically brighter than your skies.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Tony,
Did you ever get any bits on borrowing the SQM unit?
Also, what is the correlation of SQM measurements to LP?
Sean
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tatarjj
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 1134
Loc: Austin, TX
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Well, Sean, if you thought a blue zone was great, you need to see a black zone. It's not nearly as big a jump in appearance as from yellow to blue, but it's significant.
The Milky Way is not an abundance of faint naked-eye stars, though faint naked-eye stars do make up a portion of its glow. No, most of the glow is stars fainter than magnitude 7. You really need to see the Milky Way from a dark site. Here's a little tip: next TRANSPARENT new moon, go out to a dark site (when I say "dark", I mean at least a blue zone) and wait for Saggitarius to rise up to a significant altitude, and then come back and report your findings If you've never seen the summer milky way before in all it's glory, don't bother taking a telescope, you won't need it. Maybe bring a pair of bionoculars. When I was out in Fort Davis from May 14 to June 1 this year, I had to fight the urge to just sit back and stare at the incredible Milky Way. Keep in mind that I'm used to dark skies and I had a 25" scope to tempt me away from naked-eye viewing too.
Really the problem with the summer Milky Way is that weather typically only cooperates and allows you to look at it early in the mornings of April, May, and early June, and then, early in the evenings on late September or October nights, after Sagittarius is already well past meridian 
Personally, the way I see it, if you can't see the Gegenschein (when the Gegenschein is not superimposed over the Milky Way), then the site's too light polluted, and you should try to go out to an even darker site at least 2-3 times a year. Personally, I'm surprised at the number of people that find orange zones or even yellow zones acceptable- I'm glad that so many people are able to enjoy astronomy under such conditions. To be honest though, we shouldn't have to settle for orange zones, considering the current age we live in when people are constantly talking about energy conservation, greenhouse gases, and energy independence. Someone needs to call up Mr. Obama and talk to him about light pollution
Edited by tatarjj (06/06/09 05:04 AM)
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Did you ever get any bites on borrowing the SQM unit?
Yes, it's now out on loan, and there are two people on the waiting list.
Quote:
Also, what is the correlation of SQM measurements to LP?
That's exactly what the SQM does -- measure light pollution. If you tell me that your SQM reading (taken properly) is 17.5, then I know that you live in a densely populated area and can't see the Milky Way. If your SQM reading is 19.5, then you probably live in a suburb, can see the Milky Way fairly easily, and can make out some detail in many galaxies through a telescope. If you get 21.5, then you live in a location that's anywhere from pretty dark to very dark, and can see the Milky Way criss-crossed with dark lanes.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Really the problem with the summer Milky Way is that weather typically only cooperates and allows you to look at it early in the mornings of April, May, and early June, and then, early in the evenings on late September or October nights, after Sagittarius is already well past meridian.
Needless to say, that all depends where you live. Here in New England, we usually get at least a few nights with excellent transparency in July, and by late August, the sky is often as good as it ever gets. And on the West Coast, aside from forest fires, June through August is the very best time for stargazing.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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tatarjj
Quote:
Personally, the way I see it, if you can't see the Gegenschein (when the Gegenschein is not superimposed over the Milky Way), then the site's too light polluted, and you should try to go out to an even darker site at least 2-3 times a year.
2-3 times a year. That's the crucial point here. I agree. I try to get out to darker sites several times a year. But remember: Your best telescope is the one you use the most. Just as truely, your best SKIES are the ones you use the most! I see more from my surburban skies because I can observe under them whenever I want. Weather permitting, I can take my scope out beside my house 200 times or so in a year. 2-3 times a year just doesn't cut it. For most people, dark sky observing is just tourist astronomy. I pity the folks who don't live near a dark site AND only use a telescope at a dark site. They are more to be pitied than those who live in the middle of a white or red zone but take out their scopes or binos as much as they can to observe under their light-polluted skies.
Mike
See all you can see right where you are.
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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I took a peak last night at 4:00 a.m. central time. The moon was setting and still had the sky pretty lit up. Then in the East the sky was already bright from the rising sun.
Zenith was good and I even saw a sattalite passing by.
Just found out that my neighboor is adding lights to his trees! 
Hope he just uses them for special occasions.
Sean
Edited by mypontiac (06/06/09 12:20 PM)
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sean,
I think satellites are cool when I happen to see one go over head. Sometimes I even see them scuttle through the field of view when I'm looking in a scope. But I really don't look for them. I can imagine they can be a pain to APers sometimes.
Let's see. June 6th? Is that a special occasion? It's the D-Day Invasion. But other than that I don't think so. Yeah, let's hope your neighbor only turns on the lights during really special occasions, and not just to celebrate the sunset. If you have your own yard, at least you can put up light shades. I live in a condo, so I'm at the mercy of the neighborhood lights. That's why I usually don't even bother to set up until after at least 11 pm. Star atlases, maps and books that assume prime viewing time is 9pm have got it all wrong as far as I'm concerned. The sky's clearer anyway after about 11 or 12 at night.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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We at the mercy of others, eh?
Guess time will tell.
I've asked him so many times to turn off his porch lights on the weekend. He keeps them on 24/7. Almost like he was taunting me? 
I finally asked him if I can unscrew the lights. He said OK!
So I guess I will be doing whatever I can.
Sean
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Sean,
I've never asked anyone to turn off their lights. About a year ago my family and I were at the side of our building observing Jupiter and the usual showcase objects. The neighbor across from us was sitting outside with her light on doing whatever folks do when they sit outside in the evening with their light on. (I don't get it.) So I told my little daughter to go across and ask her to come over and take a look with us. I showed her Jupiter, the Ring, and some other pretty items, and we all talked for awhile. Since then, they seem to be somewhat understanding. Although they still put their light on, they do to turn it off more quickly if they see me out there, and they don't leave it on any night as long as they used to. The guy behind is a pain sometimes. But once he turns his out about 10 or 11, he usually only puts it on again, if at all, for about 15 minutes at 2 am or so, probably to deal with a pet. So I've never gone over and asked him to turn it off. I don't want to make any neighbor feel either obligated to me or that they are in a position of power over me. That way, hopefully, they won't leave the lights on all night to spite me. Leave well enough alone.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Yeah,
I am not going to bug him about this new stuff. I can always carry my NP 101 down to the ball park behind our poperty.
But since he did say I can unscrew the porch lights in the front I will still use that opportunity! 
It really makes a difference in seeing. Otherwise, my eyes never get night adjusted and I lose interest.
Sean
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
Quote:
Is orange still considered OK?
No, IMO nothing less than black is, but it may be tolerable .... in fact orange is indistinguishable from the best when the Moon is near full.
Well, I call green skies "the beginning of heaven". That's the darkest I've been at. The naked eye impact was simply stunning. I live in red but don't observe there because of lights trees and houses. I routinely observe at a local orange site only when transparency is above average. And was quite satisfied with the orange site until I observed at the green.  Now I have to drive 50 minutes to a yellow site,just to ease the pain a little. It seems like going from red to orange is a pretty big jump and from orange to yellow is another big jump. But from yellow to green seemed enormous! Maybe I'm spoiled too?
Don
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Matt Lindsey
member
Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 94
Loc: Baltimore, MD, U.S.A.
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I think it's important to not get too caught up in what "color" zone you're in, especially as a direct correlation to what/how much you can see. The demarcations are blurry and suspect anyway, as Mr. Flanders keeps pointing out. I've seen the horsehead nebula from the orange--can't be too bad. I think if one can see the Milky Way at all there will be plenty to observe.
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Matt
12" f/4.9 custom strut Dob.
8x56 binos
Member: Howard Astronomical League
Working on: Herschel I and II lists, RASC challenge objects.
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caheaton
super member
Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 155
Loc: SW Ohio
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I live in the middle of an orange zone, but I make due with what I have. Despite the light pollution, I can make out the milky way on a dark night if I travel to a local park to escape the glare of porch lights. I can still pursue the Messier objects, double stars, planets, moon, etc. so I'm not missing out.
With that said, I do know what I'm missing. The best sky I ever saw was near midnight in a rural area of the Philippines (Masbate Province). Nearest "city" (of maybe 30,000 people) was a good 15 miles away and at that time of night, many people use kerosene for light. Our jeep had broken down and while it was being repaired I happened to look up...I was spell bound! I had never seen such a sky except in a planetarium! 
Now that I own my little ETX-80, I'm looking forward to bringing it with me next time I go back (my wife and I get there every 2 to 3 years to visit her family).
Craig
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Craig
Ancient Tasco 4.5" (from back when Tasco's were good)
Meade ETX-80
Orion XT10i
Meade Super Plossls 6.4, 9.7, 15 & 26mm
Zhumell Z Planetary 3mm
Agena Ultra Wide 30mm
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I think it's important to not get too caught up in what "color" zone you're in, especially as a direct correlation to what/how much you can see. The demarcations are blurry and suspect anyway, as Mr. Flanders keeps pointing out. I've seen the horsehead nebula from the orange--can't be too bad. I think if one can see the Milky Way at all there will be plenty to observe.
I have found the "color" maps to be fairly accurate in my area. I'm close to red,orange and yellow zones. I observe fairly big differences in each zone. For each darker zone I see about 50% more and brighter stars and also more of the Milky Way. Although I haven't seen the Milky Way in the Red zone. That's probably due to porch lights and street lights. I also see a corresponding difference in DSO detail and brightness when going zone to zone. That seems accurate enough to me. I'm not hung up on colors-just darkness.
Don
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joelimite
sage
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 234
Loc: Fayetteville, AR
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After being in the hobby a year or so, I decided to determine the quality of my backyard skies. I used a magnitude chart of the stars in Ursa Minor and Lyra to determine that my limiting mag is just under 6.0. Then, I compared my results to the map at Dark Sky Finder. It turns out that I too view from an orange zone.
I have to agree with all of the comments that suggest that one can enjoy the hobby regardless of the amount of light polluting their skies. While I do occasionally visit a Blue site about 30 minutes from where I live (Devil's Den State Park), I have almost as good a time in my own backyard. Even under Orange skies, there's plenty of objects to view, be they clusters, nebulae, or galaxies.
I can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits. If I did, I'd only get out under the stars once a month and not two or three times a week like I do now. Besides, my backyard viewing sessions actually enhance my trips to a dark site, as I love seeing the difference in detail the dark skies make to objects I'm already familiar with.
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Orion XT8 Dob w/ Moonlite 2-speed Crayford focuser, Vixen A80MF w/ GSO 2-speed Crayford and Porta Mount
32mm Televue Plossl, 31mm Hyperion Aspheric, 24mm Meade SWA, 17,13,8mm Hyperions, 6,5,4mm TMB Planetary, 5mm Baader Genuine Ortho
Garrett Optical 20x80 UL Binoculars, Nikon Action Extreme 10x50 Binoculars
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40157
Loc: montana
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Quote:
can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits. If I did, I'd only get out under the stars once a month and not two or three times a week like I do now. Besides, my backyard viewing sessions actually enhance my trips to a dark site, as I love seeing the difference in detail the dark skies make to objects I'm already familiar with.
 A great outlook on viewing!
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits.
I can not imagine observing under poor to average conditions. I would much rather have a few great nights per month than a dozen ho-hum nights. There's plenty of times I've been out with poor atmospheric conditions only to find myself packing up a half hour later. Why bother? After all,I bought a telescope to "see" things. When conditions are bad, and I can't see what I want to see,why waste my time? I want quality views and because of that I have to pay the price. It's worth it as the satisfaction lasts much longer than with cheap views.
Don
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TenthEnemy
sage
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 428
Loc: Maryland
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I do 99% of my observing from the red zone, and as far as I'm concerned, I'll be long dead before I exhaust my supply of celestial objects to enjoy from this site. I say "why would I waste my time not observing if there are so many things that I can see, but haven't yet."
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Orion XT10
70mm refractor
12x50 binoculars
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Bowmoreman
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 3989
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
Quote:
I can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits.
I can not imagine observing under poor to average conditions. I would much rather have a few great nights per month than a dozen ho-hum nights. There's plenty of times I've been out with poor atmospheric conditions only to find myself packing up a half hour later. Why bother? After all,I bought a telescope to "see" things. When conditions are bad, and I can't see what I want to see,why waste my time? I want quality views and because of that I have to pay the price. It's worth it as the satisfaction lasts much longer than with cheap views.
Don
And this, Don, is precisely why I love having my observatory, even if it is in the middle of the "Orange Zone" of Metrowest Boston (My SQMs are around 19.95 to 20.25 depending on night, time, etc... less during "moon events" of course!)...
Because even if conditions ARE "marginal" I can get in a quick "fix" with virtually no effort... 2 minutes from leaving my back door to viewing - well maybe 3!
And shutdown is even faster...
Plus, when conditions are NOT optimal, that is when my Mallincam REALLY can come into play; it nicely drills right through murk and (light) cloudiness.
For me, it's all about having the right tools for the "job at hand"...
do I wish I lived under SQM 21+ skies - oh yeah! Can I "live" with SQM 20 (+/-) yeah... Am I happy I'm not in SQM 18-19 - Yep...
View what you can, whenever you can... that's my motto... and why I sign off with
Clear ENOUGH skies
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Dave
Imaging: MI-250+ADM/SBS/Optec Libra: C11Hyperstar,TMB80SS
Visual: XT10i RTP
TV: 31T5,22T4,17T4,12T4,13Ethos,8Ethos;2x Powermate,Paracorr, 1.6X Antares, Hyperion8-24Zoom
Cameras: Mallincam Color Hyper Plus, QHY8
Guider: SBIG STV eFinder
Key Add-ons: Gerbings Heated clothes, WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO#90), Speco 9"Monitor
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
Plus, when conditions are NOT optimal, that is when my Mallincam REALLY can come into play; it nicely drills right through murk and (light) cloudiness.
For me, it's all about having the right tools for the "job at hand"...
That's cheating,you know. An observatory would be nice, but I'd have to bulldoze about 6 houses and a dozen or so large oak trees to be able to view a reasonable amount of sky. I don't think the neighbors would like that.
Don
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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I live in a red zone, right next to a white zone. Iv been able to find alot with my new 10" telescope. But i cant see nebula like the trifid,laggoon nebula. Or M51 or the Andromeda Galaxy. Im just getting into all this astronemy stuff (altho i did have a 60mm scope for like 10 years lol) and personally this light pollution is ruining everything for me. I cant see anything but planets, and a few things like the ring nebula. I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle. I cant see saturn anymore with my eye either. I can count maybe 6 stars with the naked eye on a good night.
I wish i was still living in Arizona where the sky's were Lightblue/grey. Oh well i cant move simply because of a hobby. D.C is where all the money and jobs are at.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/11/09 02:33 AM)
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s58y
Postmaster
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 5494
Loc: Eastern NY
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Quote:
I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle. I cant see saturn anymore with my eye either. I can count maybe 6 stars with the naked eye on a good night.
LP is definitely getting bad where you live. It would be interesting to get a SQM or SQM-L reading on a nice clear, transparent night when saturn and the big dipper are invisible.
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Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis
Old camera lenses: 800mm f/5.6, 180mm f/3.4
AP900, Barndoor tracker
http://www.pbase.com/s58y
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KD5NRH
member
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Stephenville TX
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Quote:
When I was out in Fort Davis from May 14 to June 1 this year, I had to fight the urge to just sit back and stare at the incredible Milky Way.
Two weeks? We barely stayed two nights on the way back from Carlsbad Caverns and it was enough to make me consider that area as a retirement spot. My backyard is in orange, but I have some land a few minutes out in green that seems dark to me on a good night. (Most of the easier Messier objects can be picked out naked-eye from there with a little practice.) Compared to Fort Davis, I might as well be doing my observing from downtown Las Vegas.
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
Quote:
I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle. I cant see saturn anymore with my eye either. I can count maybe 6 stars with the naked eye on a good night.
LP is definitely getting bad where you live. It would be interesting to get a SQM or SQM-L reading on a nice clear, transparent night when saturn and the big dipper are invisible.
The only stars i can see at nite, are the big ones Arcturas,Antares,Vega,Altair,Deneb. I can see the 3 star handle on the big dipper but not the bucket. Saturn i cant see either.
The only way im finding anything at night is by using a compass and looking on stellarium where the object will be. Then i use the finderscope to find bright star's with, and just hop from there using my 2" wide angle EP. Thats how i found saturn i had to point my scope in the west and just move the scope around until i found it.
I dont really go out much anymore maybe for like an hour, there is nothing else to see that i already saw on the first 2 days iv had my scope. Everything i find in the sky is just washed out completetly where all you see is black. Like M51 i found in like 20 minutes, but i couldnt see it at all not even a blotch. I'v found Globbular clusters but only the 1-3 brightest stars in them and nothing else. I'v found the ring nebula that was the onlty thing easy to see. The other nebula's im spot on but i see nothing. Basicly when im looking through the eyepeice on my telescope all i see is grey .. like this grey and stars are white
I guess another problem is my eyesight isnt what it used to be. Im only 23 years old and i recently found out my perfect 20/10 vision i had when i was 14 is now 20/40 i deff notice this when i put glass's on and look up. Things are clear and not blurry like before.
Yea it sucks here. Hopefully we have a poweroutage all night on a good night so i can go outside and check out the real sky lol.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/11/09 03:22 PM)
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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If I did not have my regular, once or twice a month trips to dark skies (75 minute drive), I would no longer be into the hobby. There are other things besides money. It's usually cheaper to live in isolated areas anyway.
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
If I did not have my regular, once or twice a month trips to dark skies (75 minute drive), I would no longer be into the hobby. There are other things besides money. It's usually cheaper to live in isolated areas anyway.
Cheaper maybe but good luck finding a decent Job that you are happy with. I'd rather make $50-80k a year and live in a nice house with my fmaily then live in a trailer park washing dish's just to see the star's.
I used to live in AZ by FT. Huachuca (the base that trains people for military intelligence) and the houses were cheap yea, we had a brand new house living in a light blue grey sky area, but there were no Job's at all. If it werent for the Military pention we couldnt live there. So we came back to VA. The econemy's just suck in small area's. I remember when i was there they had this huge mall bigger then the Pentagon Mall and there was like 20 people in it at a given time lol.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/12/09 05:16 PM)
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle.
You're lucky, going by the LP map, you have several yellow sites within an hours drive. You also have a few green zones less than 2 hours away. I have to drive 3.5 hours to hit green - but it's worth it. I don't do it often as I have a yellow zone just 50 minutes away.
I,like you, live on a red/white border about 40 miles from Philly. I can't see anything in my north and west skies up to about 60 - 70 degrees from the horizon. The south is ok but much of the sky is blocked by trees and houses and porch lights. I usually observe either at an orange zone (20 minute ride, or a yellow zone (50 minute ride). It looks like your options are:
1. Move
2. Drive to a local dark site
3. Quit astronomy
4. Suffer at your present location
Don
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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I'll probably just suffer lol. To lazy to drive 1-2 hours to look at the sky. Someone mentioned the local astronomy club here is doing some kinda sky campout or whatever its called. There going to a park in a yellow zone 1 hour from me. I dunno if thats even worth doing TBH. Iv lived in this sky so long tho i forgot what it looks like to in the other zones so maybe im just being stubborn.
I cant belive the light pollution tho is this bad here. There is nothing out here but neighborhoods. I guess it must be all the bad street lighting they put on the roads.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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I live in the middle of a red zone. For a few days around the last new moon, my family and I rented a cabin an hour away in a yellow zone. We used my 10" Newt Dob, and each of us brought binos. I had the 15x70s, my wife had 10x50s, and my daughter had 7x50s (her young eyes can take in more light from the large exit pupils of that bino). I brought a laser pointer to show them the different constellations and indicate to my wife and daughter where to point their binos to see various objects. IMHO, the skies were very good. I would be very contented if I had skies like that at my house. No problem. The Milky Way was beautiful. We could see dark lanes, knots, and dark nebulae. I think the Milky Way did dip into Ophiucus, which is supposed to be an indicator of dark skies, though I didn't think to look for that specifically while I was there. Among other things, I saw the Helix and the North America nebulae, which I had never seen before and could probably never see from my house. I also plan to visit a green/blue site that is about 1-1/2 hours from where I live.
Now, do I just give up bothering to set up my scopes in my red zone skies? No way. I'm still going to do astronomy right here in the light polluted burbs. I haven't changed my mind about that at all. That would be silly ... IMHO. I may change my focus, since now I've experienced first-hand how much easier it is to find galaxies and other low surface brightness objects under darker skies. Maybe I'll save the faint fuzzies for the dark sites. But I'll still enjoy the Moon, planets, open star clusters, many globulars and planetaries and double stars where I am. That just makes good sense. I enjoy all fields of amateur astonomy except astrophotograpy, solar and variables. Why shouldn't I make the best use of my time and my instruments wherever I am? Little smudgy galaxies and the other faint fuzzies aren't everything. Not by a long shot.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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Pensions go much farther in depressed areas that have dark skies. I am getting ready to start drawing mine next year. Moving to darker skies. Maybe wash dishes part time.
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Cobalt5120
member
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 45
Loc: Bremen, IN (just south of Sout...
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Quote:
You also have a few green zones less than 2 hours away.
Question: I look on a map and I see a green zone. So you drive there and then what.......?
Seriously, where would you go once you enter the "green zone"? Somebodys driveway? Stop the car on an abandoned country road? What would you be looking for in deciding where to set up for the evening?
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Larry
Visual: Orion XT10
EyePieces: Hyperion 8-24 zoom, Orion 25mm, 10 mm stock plossl's
Cameras: Canon XSI (450D)
Accessories: Sky Scout, Telrad
Realistic Dream List: Astrotrac, GEM, 80ED, Mallincam
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
Quote:
You also have a few green zones less than 2 hours away.
Question: I look on a map and I see a green zone. So you drive there and then what.......?
Seriously, where would you go once you enter the "green zone"? Somebodys driveway? Stop the car on an abandoned country road? What would you be looking for in deciding where to set up for the evening?
\
Hahah i laughed at that.. Thats a good question. What i would look for is it any public parks are in the area, then look them up on google and call asking if they have open area's for observing the sky where i could park and possibly camp out at for the night. The green Zones that are near me which hes talking about has a national park in it. If that park wasnt there i would have no idea where to go... lol
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/12/09 11:56 PM)
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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There might be land for sale rather cheaply in a green, blue, or gray zone. That's what I sought for several years, and finally located in a gray zone. There are many advantages to owning the site.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3456
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
The only stars i can see at nite, are the big ones Arcturas,Antares,Vega,Altair,Deneb. I can see the 3 star handle on the big dipper but not the bucket.
Have you had your eyes checked recently? Seeing that few stars sounds to me like vision that's undercorrected by at least two diopters. From my local urban park deep in the white zone, I can see 6 of the 7 stars in the Big Dipper easily even when it's at its lowest in the sky -- which it's not, at this time of year -- and I can also see Mizar with just a little effort. When the Big Dipper is overhead, all 7 stars are blindingly obvious.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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caheaton
super member
Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 155
Loc: SW Ohio
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"Seriously, where would you go once you enter the "green zone"? Somebodys driveway? Stop the car on an abandoned country road?"
I did that a few years back to view Comet Hale-Bopp. I hopped in the car and just headed east (away from town) towards darker skies. When I reached a likely area on a rural road, I just pulled over and spent maybe half an hour observing. Sometime you just gotta do what you gotta do... 
Craig
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hm insulators
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 1357
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That's kind of what I do. When I drive from Phoenix to Los Angeles, there are two or three exits of the freeway out in the desert where I can get off, park a short distance away and haul out the binoculars. After a short while, I get back on the freeway and continue on my way.
I'm going to try to do that at least once this week, as a matter of fact as I go to California.
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2351
Loc: Arctic
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I starwatch in the White Zone and if conditions permit, I can actually see globular clusters that are not listed as being visible in the urban sky. M53 and M79 come to mind. In a urban sky, I mostly look at the Moon, planets, and star clusters. I also look at planetary nebulas, bright nebulas, and a galaxy, in which Andromeda is visible. If I was in a dark sky, I would change my focus to galaxies and faint nebulas.
The only time I don't starwatch is during the summer, when there are too many mosquitos buzzing around. Also, the sky is very turbulen from all that moisture in the air.
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Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
Quote:
The only stars i can see at nite, are the big ones Arcturas,Antares,Vega,Altair,Deneb. I can see the 3 star handle on the big dipper but not the bucket.
Have you had your eyes checked recently? Seeing that few stars sounds to me like vision that's undercorrected by at least two diopters. From my local urban park deep in the white zone, I can see 6 of the 7 stars in the Big Dipper easily even when it's at its lowest in the sky -- which it's not, at this time of year -- and I can also see Mizar with just a little effort. When the Big Dipper is overhead, all 7 stars are blindingly obvious.
Ok maybe i exagurated a little, i can on a non cloudy nite see enough stars to not be able to count them all, but hey are so dim it makes it hard to see them at all. The light in my neighborhood when i look up are glaring right in my eyes and i have to take my arm and cover the area they are in just be able to see the sky. Tonight is suppose to be a good night, clear sky's no clouds, and cool temps. I will be taking my telescope out and trying to find the dumbell nebula and m51 again. I will also take note and count as many stars as i can see without and with my glass's and post back here
Actually yes i have gotten vision checked about a month ago. My vision is 20/40, and using glass's only helps out what i can already see. Im not spotting star's at a local park like you im spotting stars at my house in this kind of light pollution. Im also on the border of RED/WHITE right by D.C and Springfield. When its cloudy here at night you can see the whole sky is lit up orange from the street lights and lamp posts that you see in my picture. All of lakeridge/woodbridge is townhouses that each have orange lights on there steets and lamp posts in front of there house. I am also close to i95, while glass's do help and yes i was shocked my vision went from 20/10 to 20/40 from 14 years old to 23 (i wish i knew why my vision went bad the doctor blames me being on computers to much meh) Glass's help alot but i still can barely or not even make out the bucket with them on. It almost makes me wanna cry when i found my vision went to 20/40 and i need glass's to look up at night at only 23... I noticed it doesnt matter when i look in the eyepeices tho glass's dont change that so at least i dont have to use them for looking in the eyepeice or else id give up completetly on this hobby lol.
Edited by candymancan (07/13/09 07:54 PM)
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I'll probably just suffer lol. To lazy to drive 1-2 hours to look at the sky. Someone mentioned the local astronomy club here is doing some kinda sky campout or whatever its called. There going to a park in a yellow zone 1 hour from me. I dunno if thats even worth doing TBH. Iv lived in this sky so long tho i forgot what it looks like to in the other zones so maybe im just being stubborn.
Yes,you're being stubborn. There's a huge difference between your red/white skies and a yellow LP zone. Actually there's even a pretty big difference between red and orange.
Remember,I live in pretty much the same LP ghetto as you. And I regularly travel to local orange and yellow zones. Why? Because I like DSO's best.And that's what one must do in order to see detail in them.
I think you should go to that star party. If you don't like it,you can blame me.
Don
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I also plan to visit a green/blue site that is about 1-1/2 hours from where I live.
Mike
I recently visited a blue/green zone in PA. About 1.5 hours east of Cherry Springs. Much better than yellow. More stars and they're very bright. I spent a lot of time naked eye observing. Too bad the Milky Way wasn't up. Galaxies looked tremendous compared to yellow. Not much difference in globs,though. I spent a lot of time just saying holy s***!
Don
Edit; I went on a night of above average transparency, average seeing and about 40% humidity.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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John,
Quote:
Pensions go much farther in depressed areas that have dark skies. I am getting ready to start drawing mine next year. Moving to darker skies. Maybe wash dishes part time.
That sounds very tempting ... except for the dishwashing part. Bused tables, too. Been there, done that, but not since my teens. Seriously, though, one thing to think about when retiring is health care. How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies? It might be better to just buy a few acres, pave a drive way, keep the land cleared out, and take your scope there when you want dark skies. Why live there? Just hope that the folks who own the neighboring acres don't sell out to developers, and the orange or worse skies will follow you there.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Ptarmigan,
Quote:
I starwatch in the White Zone and if conditions permit, I can actually see globular clusters that are not listed as being visible in the urban sky. M53 and M79 come to mind.
Don't listen to the "experts" about what you can or cannot see in white or red zones. Sometimes it just takes some effort, experience, and knowledge of some techniques. I've seen M33 often in the red zone, and I've even managed M101. But I must admit it would be a lot easier to see them - and they'd look a lot better - in a darker site.
Quote:
In a urban sky, I mostly look at the Moon, planets, and star clusters.
Actually, it might be easier to find and observe some star clusters in the white or red zone, because you can't see as many stars, which could allow you to distinguish the cluster more easily from the background star fields. When I visited a yellow zone recently, it did seem more difficult finding some clusters than back home in the red. Something to think about.
Quote:
I also look at planetary nebulas, bright nebulas, and a galaxy, in which Andromeda is visible. If I was in a dark sky, I would change my focus to galaxies and faint nebulas.
Makes perfect sense to me! A corollary would be to NOT spend an inordinate amount of time looking for the fainter fuzzies in light polluted areas. Just a thought. That might be my protocol in the future.
Quote:
The only time I don't starwatch is during the summer, when there are too many mosquitos buzzing around. Also, the sky is very turbulen from all that moisture in the air.
My problem season for stargazing is the Winter. I hate the cold; it takes all the joy out of observing. The mosquitoes I can stand. Just be sure to spray a lot of Deet on you, bring the can along, and wear long pants, long socks, long-sleeved shirt, and a hoodie.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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Quote:
John,
Quote:
Pensions go much farther in depressed areas that have dark skies. I am getting ready to start drawing mine next year. Moving to darker skies. Maybe wash dishes part time.
That sounds very tempting ... except for the dishwashing part. Bused tables, too. Been there, done that, but not since my teens. Seriously, though, one thing to think about when retiring is health care. How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies? It might be better to just buy a few acres, pave a drive way, keep the land cleared out, and take your scope there when you want dark skies. Why live there? Just hope that the folks who own the neighboring acres don't sell out to developers, and the orange or worse skies will follow you there.
Mike
Probably won't live there. No reliable water source, and electricity is so-so. It will not be developed for the next 20 years, if even then. That area has been losing population since the mid 90's. But, I do plan to move to the other side of this town, on the edge, out of the most taxed district in the state, which will put me about 15 miles and 30 minutes closer to the dark site, making it a 45 minute drive. That will be only a 25 to 30 minute drive to all services, Wal-Mart, hospital, etc. A 45 minute rural drive back home from the dark site is much better than a 75 minute one, with the last 30 minutes being speed zones and congested. I am living on the opposite side of town right now from my 18-acrs dark site.
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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2351
Loc: Arctic
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Quote:
Don't listen to the "experts" about what you can or cannot see in white or red zones. Sometimes it just takes some effort, experience, and knowledge of some techniques. I've seen M33 often in the red zone, and I've even managed M101. But I must admit it would be a lot easier to see them - and they'd look a lot better - in a darker site.
When I saw them, the sky condition was transparent after a cold front and storm passed by in winter and early spring. I would not rule out seeing M33 in the White Zone.
Quote:
Actually, it might be easier to find and observe some star clusters in the white or red zone, because you can't see as many stars, which could allow you to distinguish the cluster more easily from the background star fields. When I visited a yellow zone recently, it did seem more difficult finding some clusters than back home in the red. Something to think about.
Not for me. I find these objects naturally.
Quote:
Makes perfect sense to me! A corollary would be to NOT spend an inordinate amount of time looking for the fainter fuzzies in light polluted areas. Just a thought. That might be my protocol in the future.
Oh yeah.
Quote:
My problem season for stargazing is the Winter. I hate the cold; it takes all the joy out of observing. The mosquitoes I can stand. Just be sure to spray a lot of Deet on you, bring the can along, and wear long pants, long socks, long-sleeved shirt, and a hoodie.
Cold weather is refreshing and sky condition is most likely to be the best for starwatching. Summer does have many great objects to look at.
--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
Edited by Ptarmigan (07/13/09 11:59 PM)
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Don, Quote:
I recently visited a blue/green zone in PA. About 1.5 hours east of Cherry Springs. Much better than yellow. More stars and they're very bright. I spent a lot of time naked eye observing. Too bad the Milky Way wasn't up. Galaxies looked tremendous compared to yellow. Not much difference in globs,though. I spent a lot of time just saying holy s***!
Cherry Springs and its environ is a bit too far for me to trek. It would take about 5, almost 6 hours to get there. For me, it'd make more sense to go southwest to Spruce Knob, at the Mountain Institute. That would be about a 4 hour trip to a grey site, darkest east of the Mississippi, so they say. I'm going back to Tuckahoe next week for the New Moon. Yellow is alright with me. There are great skies there. In August I'm going to try out a green/blue site that's only 1-1/2 hours from my house. I'll have to buy a tent, though, instead of renting a cabin. I like a cabin much better; more secure, you can actually lock the door. I'll have to work out the logistics of using (relatively) expensive astro gear out of a tent in a semi-public area. Not my cup of tea, but what the heck: it's a green/blue site! But I won't let the clear skies spoil me. Often a close Red Zone is better than a far Blue one. IMHO
Quote:
I spent a lot of time naked eye observing. Too bad the Milky Way wasn't up. Galaxies looked tremendous compared to yellow. Not much difference in globs,though. I spent a lot of time just saying holy s***!
After my experience at Tuckahoe, I'm tempted to leave the 10" Newt at home and just double-team my 25x100 bino and ST80 on the SkyView AZ mount, and bring a couple binos for my wife and daughter. Wide field views of the Milky Way are incredible at a dark site!
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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KD5NRH
member
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Stephenville TX
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Quote:
How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies?
If there is a hospital, any lack of technology is more than made up for by how quickly you can get in if something goes wrong. When I lived in Dallas, there were a few people that would drive an hour or more to get to a rural ER for anything that wasn't immediately life-threatening because they would spend longer than that waiting in most of the city ERs if they weren't actually bleeding all over the place. It's also nice to deal with doctors who remember you, and only have to check the chart for the exact numbers.
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
After my experience at Tuckahoe, I'm tempted to leave the 10" Newt at home and just double-team my 25x100 bino and ST80 on the SkyView AZ mount, and bring a couple binos for my wife and daughter. Wide field views of the Milky Way are incredible at a dark site!
Mike
Leave the 10" home? Well, maybe you'd be better off that way. Less chance of getting spoiled by the high detail in DSO's. Just to tempt you - From the dark site (High Knob) that I went to, Galaxies showed more detail through my 8" Dob than at my local yellow zone using my 12" dob! Just don't forget to bring sunglasses to shield your eyes from all those bright stars!
Don
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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Quote:
How close to decent hospitals and health care would you be out in the dark, dark boonies?
If I worried about things such as that all the time, I would never leave home. Living to the fullest requires taking chances. IOW, it DOES NOT concern me much. Anyway, the rural areas around here have heli-medivac, and memberships are relatively cheap.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Don,
Quote:
Leave the 10" home? Well, maybe you'd be better off that way. Less chance of getting spoiled by the high detail in DSO's. Just to tempt you - From the dark site (High Knob) that I went to, Galaxies showed more detail through my 8" Dob than at my local yellow zone using my 12" dob! Just don't forget to bring sunglasses to shield your eyes from all those bright stars!
If I had enough room in the crossover, I'd take it all with us - 10" and mount, eyepiece case, finder case, portable power supply and dew controls, 25x100, ST80, SkyView AZ, three smaller binos for each of us, etc., etc. - but I doubt if I could fit it all in. I suppose I could always free up some space and leave my wife or daughter home ... just kidding! I do enjoy observing sky vistas with the big bino, though. Like I said, faint fuzzies aren't everything, and I won't let the dark skies spoil me for my mag 5.5 skies here in the burbs. Not gonna happen.  Though, I'd hate to miss seeing M51, M101, M31, M33, etc. with a moderate-size scope in a dark site. So far I've found an orange site, a yellow site, and a green/blue zone site within 1-1/2 hour from my red zone. I intend to use them all. Including the red zone. Maybe we'll go to Spruce Knob, a grey zone, next summer.
By the way, where is Big Knob? I know about Spruce Knob but not Big Knob.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Don,
Excuse me, I meant "High Knob," not "Big Knob." Too many "knobs." What the heck is a "knob" in terms of geography, anyway?! Is a "knob" the opposite of a "holler?"
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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High Knob is about 80 miles east of Cherry Springs. It's listed as a blue zone. But it's really a blue and green zone depending on which direction you're looking in.
I went there about 2 months ago. That was the darkest sky I've been to. At first I couldn't recognize any constellations - too many damn stars in the way. Even the plain old big dipper looked amazing. It looked almost 3-D with extremely bright stars against an inky black zenith. Even though I'm a faint fuzzy type of guy,I could have easily kept myself busy all night with binos and naked eye observing.
The only thing bad about High Knob is the north and eastern horizons are blocked by trees up to about 40 degrees.
Knob = protrusion,no?
Don
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1836
Loc: AR
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I have been in blue zones, gray zones, and black zones. The differences between them are subtle IMO, especially near the zenith. Elevation makes a difference too. IMO a black zone at sea level might not be as good as a gray zone at 2,000 feet.
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Robert Cook
super member
Reged: 07/23/09
Posts: 101
Loc: San Diego County, California
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Having lived under Class 9 skies for most of my life, I'm grateful for the Class 5 sky I have now. It's nice to see whole constellations and some structure in the Milky Way, even if I'm constantly aware of the degrading effects of light pollution. Sometimes on exceptionally clear nights I'll just lean back and take in the view without visual aids, sad at how much better it could/should be and at how many people cannot see the Milky Way at all (and probably never will), but still thankful that I don't need to drive to another state to behold the wonders of outer space with my own eyes.
So is the orange zone OK? Well, it sure isn't rural Nebraska, where I spent a short but happy period of my childhood gazing at nebulae that I need at least a binocular to view now, but it's better than what most people have, which is OK in my estimation.
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Kyle T
member
Reged: 10/08/08
Posts: 20
Loc: New England
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The way I look at it, if you live in an orange zone like I do, it is not bad because you are used to it. If you live in a black or grey zone and you move into a orange zone, I would say that it is very bad indeed. I can see a lot of stars in my orange zone on a clear night. I can see so much that I almost don't agree with the orange designation that I have been given.
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102mm Orion Maksutov-Cassegrain.
Orion SkyQuest XT10 Dobsonian w/Intelliscope
www.lightbucketastro.bravehost.com
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st3ve
member
Reged: 08/15/08
Posts: 85
Loc: san jose, california
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I live in a white zone. I observe from it all the time; it just adds to the challenge. If I waited until I could get away to better skies, I'd never observe anything. I observe more by observing close to home. The LP pushes me toward the moon and planets.
STEVE
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Call sign:KG6WNH
AAVSO
ALPO
Y-haplogroup: J2
MtDNA haplogroup : K
Stellarvue 80mm f/6 refractor,
University Optics Konig 24mm, Abbe 4mm
Faworski Orthoscopic: 16.8mm, 10.5mm, 7mm
Faworski 2.5X barlow
--Preserve your right to arm bears!--
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 2115
Loc: The TV/SV Wolfpack
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I live in a red zone on the border to a white zone. That's the bad news.
The good news is that facing away from the white zone, I've got a pretty good view of the SE skies. That's where the moon and planets traverse for me. My house and several trees block the skyglow from the white zone to the NW.
I tend to be a lunar/planetary/globular/double star observer.
The best news of all is that extremely dark skies are only 90 minutes away via the freeway.
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Kit
'Don’t worry about what telescope you own, or its quality. Just get out under the night sky, and enjoy God’s wondrous universe.' - Thomas M Back
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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No zone is bad if you're resolved never to wander to darker skies.
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Well,
I used the SQM-L last night around 4:00 am, but the skies were mostly overcast.
I got readings from 19.64 to almost 20.00.
I will take another reading on a crisp clear night as I would expect to get better readings.
This still puts me in the Orange designation that the Sky Map shows me to be in.
Sean
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mistyridge
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/28/05
Posts: 2376
Loc: Loomis, CA ,14mi from SV headq...
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I live on the edge of a orange zone where I do all my observing. It is a semi rural area with the burbs creeping in, but no streetlights. I get a SQM reading of 19.6 to 19.8 at zenith on a average night and 20+ to the northeast and east which is the direction of the Sierra Nevada Mts where there ae no urban lights. My south and west are just skyglow but good for lunar and planetary work. I could drive 45min up the hill for better skies, but packing up all my gear just take away all my enthusiasim.
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Mike F
Misty Ridge Observatory
Stellarvue SV115T
Stellarvue SV70ED
Stellarvue Nighthawk
SV F50
18" f/4.5 Teeter's, Swayze mirror
12.5" f/5 Astrosky, OWL mirror
SV 15X70 Binos
Mounts: DM-6,M-1,CG-5(ASGT)
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mypontiac
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
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Hi Mike,
Sounds like my situation.
I can get to a dark site about 1.5 hrs drive, but I like being at home.
My skies seem to be much darker in the cooler months.
Sean
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TimD
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/16/05
Posts: 866
Loc: CA USA
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I live smack in the middle of a white zone.
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Takahashi TSC 225
WO Megrez 102
Meade ETX 90, ETX 125
Meade LX90
Classic Orange tube C14, C90, C5+
Etc,Etc,Etc!!
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nobody special
sage
Reged: 12/30/08
Posts: 393
Loc: Connecticut
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After viewing for eight months in a Red Zone and finally making to an Orange Zone I can tell you that I only wished I lived in an Orange Zone.
Its all relative.
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Tom
Orion XT8 Classic
Hyperion 13mm (With 28mm Tuning Ring)
Orion Sirius 25mm
Meade Series 4000 Plossls 32mm 6.4mm
Orion Shorty Plus 2x Barlow
Telrad
OPT OIII Filter
ND Moon Filter
80a Blue Filter
Smart Seat III
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YankeeJeff
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/11/06
Posts: 537
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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As I read through this thread, much of what I would have responded to as a defense of light colored zone observing has been already posted by Mike (Sarkikos) - so thanks
In any case, I'm in Brooklyn by the beaches so my white zone is probably better than most white zones - maybe borderline red? I do know I have to have better views than mid-town manhattan or even other areas of Brooklyn with many buildings. Robert Moses State Park is my Orange Zone - about an hour away. Last Friday the SQM hit 18.41 at 2:30am. That night I was able to see M33 and M74 for the first time, among other objects. There is plenty to see from a white zone folks - don't give up.
I remember going on vacation once and the milky way was incredible - the second blackest sky I have ever seen. It was an island off the coast of Puerto Rico - with very few people. What I saw in my 15X70 binoculars was better than what I can see in my 10" from my backyard. That hasn't stopped me from observing however. I'm sure I'll make it to a dark site with my 10" one day but I'm in no hurry. I'm having a great time right now. The way I see it, I have my retirement to look foward to and keep me motivated - my dream is to retire to a black zone. Any dark site trips between now and then is gravy, glimpses of my future, rewards for my dedication in between. Besides, I'm picking up skills along the way.
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Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
24Pan, 17T4, 13T6, 11T6, 9BTMB, 8TVpl, 7T6, 5T6, 3.5T6, 5/6BTMBs
Z10"Dob, Paracorr, 2xBrlw, Telrad, RACI,°Circles, )Spider
FBF, Brooklyn: 
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JoshTal150
member
Reged: 09/02/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Wolverhampton, England
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From visibility maps in my area I thought I was living in an orange zone but most people who have posted here who live in orange zones seem to be able to see significantly more than I. For example, I have never seen the milky way. Something I'm still striving for - just to set my naked sight upon it.
I have green/blue about 40 miles from me and I'll try to get over there but it's that little bit more difficult when you don't drive. Even if I have to leave my telescope behind...I greatly look forward to the day that I see our galaxy stretch above me.
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