Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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I believe I may have finally seen M51 tonight. I'd like to confirm what I saw with my fellow CN'ers. I'm using a 8" Lightbridge with a Celestron eyepiece kit( I finally got enough cash to order two Telvue Possel's today). I live in a fairly light polluted area and with a 15 MM eyepiece I saw what looked like two blurry "blobby" stars. Any stars around these two objects came in sharp, but these two objects seemed to have a little softness to them no matter what I did. There were a few times when it seemed as if I could make out a small swirl pattern.
I used my Telrad to center Alkaid. I then moved the scope down and slightly to the right of Alkaid.
Do you guys think I did see M51?
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gdjsky01
sage
Reged: 11/25/06
Posts: 228
Loc: Southern California
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Your directions, down and right, well... I guess you have to be there...
One thing to help you, once you see the 'two blurry blobby stars', let them drift. They will exit the eyepiece to the west. In a Newtonian North is 90 degrees counterclockwise from West. And NGC5195, M51's companion, is roughly north of M51. Knowing such directions increases your confidence level about what you are seeing. You can then say "And they line up roughly north-south with the brighter/bigger blob to the south."
Hope that helps.
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Jeff Gortatowsky
Fullerton, California
Teleport 18cm f/5.7 Truss Newt
Starsplitter 20cm f/6 4 Pole Newt
Litebox 45cm f/4.5 Truss Newt
Televue TV-101 10cm f/5.4 APO
Cave Astrola Deluxe 25cm F/6 Newtonian
Vixen/Celestron CP-80 / f/11.7 Archro
Coronado SolarMax 60 f/6.6 H-Alpha
Orion 100mm f/6 archomat w/ Lunt B600 CaK Module
Starmaster 11 ELT 28cm f/4.5 -sold 
TMB-180 18cm F/9 - sold
AP130EDT 13cm F/8 - sold
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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Thanks based on your info it sounds like I was looking at M51. They drifted west and I'm almost sure I saw very faint swirls.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3446
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I believe I may have finally seen M51 tonight. I'd like to confirm what I saw with my fellow CN'ers. I'm using a 8" Lightbridge with a Celestron eyepiece kit( I finally got enough cash to order two Telvue Possel's today). I live in a fairly light polluted area and with a 15 MM eyepiece I saw what looked like two blurry "blobby" stars. Any stars around these two objects came in sharp, but these two objects seemed to have a little softness to them no matter what I did. There were a few times when it seemed as if I could make out a small swirl pattern.
Do you guys think I did see M51?
I'd say that it's quite possible but not certain. Here are a couple of indications.
First, I've never perceived the cores of M51 and its companion as being like stars. They're small, but fairly diffuse and faint, not pointlike and intensely bright like stars. Very much like the core of M31, but smaller.
Second, there's very little doubt that any swirls that you saw were illusions. It's tough for an inexperienced observer to see the spiral pattern of M51 through an 8-inch scope even in pristine skies. I'd say that it's absolutely out of the question in a light-polluted area.
Long before the spiral arms become apparent, I see M51 and its companions as two large disks, nearly touching each other or even overlapping.
The best way to be sure that you're looking at M51 is to match up the surrounding star field with a photo or a detailed chart.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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mnev326
member
Reged: 02/06/07
Posts: 62
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Where in New Jersey did you make this observation from. It has been very cloudy here. I doubt the transparency been good enough.
Mark
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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Hey Tony,
Your description of the cores being small but fairly diffuse and faint is dead on. The stars around these two objects were pin point sharp but these two objects were fairly diffused. As for the swirls I'm not sure, but there was something very different about these two objects.
The biggest issue were my eyepieces. I'm still using the ones that came with my Celestron 1.25 inch kit as well as a 20MM Celestron Omni eyepiece. I did order my first Televue eyepieces the other day so I hope they improve my viewing.
If I get lucky again with very clear skys I'll see if I can spot them again and confirm.
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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Hi Mark,
I'm in Teaneck, NJ. I got very lucky last night, the clouds rolled in and then around 10:30 PM they broke and I had some very clear skies. I had about an hour of observing time before the clouds rolled back in. It was just one of those nights and everything clicked.
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droid
rocketman
Reged: 08/29/04
Posts: 4027
Loc: ohio
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I dont see as eps are an issue really, my ep case is a motley lot.
Some plossls from Orion, one UO plossl, two celestron silver tops, a few kelners.Nothing high end trust me,lol.
more IMPORTANTLY the clear spot was probably very transparent, that helps a lot with M51, as Tony said above M51 with companion should have appeared as a bit more than point like,I see M51 as a rather easy to spot grayish round fuzzy,the companion is the same.
At no time time have I seen arms, or details mind you.
Just the grayish fuzzys.
Heres a link to another thread on M51 also here in the CN deep sky forum , in it youll find a drawing bye cloudy nights own Caol L, understand shes observing from a really dark sky, and has tons of experience.
http://tinyurl.com/npzc2q
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102mm Celestron C102HD
Tasco 7TE5 60mm Classic
Tasco 9TE5 60mm Classic
Celestron Ultima 2000 SCT
Remains of an 8 inch dob
Celestron Comet catcher(orange tube)
1960 Edscorp Space Conquerer 6inch f/8
10x50 Bushnell Binoculars.
11T 4.5 inch Tasco reflector Lunograsso?
60mm Telescope Club
Edited by droid (06/17/09 06:15 PM)
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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Hey Droid,
One of the reasons I'm upgrading eyepeices is so I can send my current ones to my sister who lives in Florida. She got hooked on Astronomy when I told her about my scope. When I upgrade to my 8" LB I sent her my first scope a Celestron 127EQ. She doesn't observe very often so I figure the Celestron kit that I currently own as well as the 20mm Celeston Omni and the 127EQ will be a really good fit for her.
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Michael A. Earl
vendor- Canadian Satellite Tracking and Orbit Research
Reged: 11/17/08
Posts: 1098
Loc: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
there's very little doubt that any swirls that you saw were illusions. It's tough for an inexperienced observer to see the spiral pattern of M51 through an 8-inch scope even in pristine skies. I'd say that it's absolutely out of the question in a light-polluted area.
Absolutely agreed. I barely caught the spiral structure of M51 with my NexStar 11 in a very dark site. Seeing the spirals with an 8-inch in a light polluted sky is improbable.
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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Hey Droid,
Thanks for the link, take away the well defined spirals and the two fuzzy blobs are exactly what I saw. If these clouds ever give way I'll take another peek.
jav
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: Estonia
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M51 has one of those spirals that you need to know beforehand to see. And there's a large risk of fooling yourself.
Under very dark skies, with plenty of aperture, swirls are visible, as well as curved bright stretches, but it's not a defined spiral even then.
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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
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Quote:
Under very dark skies, with plenty of aperture, swirls are visible, as well as curved bright stretches, but it's not a defined spiral even then.
Mr. Hrundi,
Depends on what you consider plenty of aperture. In my 8" f/6 under gray skies, the spiral structure of M51 is all there with a vague hint of the bridge to companion, NGC 5195 at just 49x. Pending favorable sky conditions, the galaxy takes on high power well. It pops real nice if I push the mag. to just over 100x..or even better at 122x. Finding that nice sweet spot is key.
Viewing M51 in the 14" dob is really nice...
Viewing M51 in the 18" dob is extremely nice...
Viewing M51 in the 25" dob is out of this world.
Clear Skies to All!
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Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow
Local Site
Clear Skies?
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rickertk
sage
Reged: 06/14/07
Posts: 240
Loc: Outer Philadelphia suburbs
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In my 8" dob, from my suburban-rural location, I can see some details. I can see both galaxy cores, and I can see a faint disk around the larger core, almost touching the fainter core. There may be some brighter and darker stretches within that disk, but I have relatively low confidence in that observation. (I mean, I'm sure that they are really there, but I'm not particularly sure that I've seen them). I'm in the more distant suburbs of Philadelphia, and this was on a couple of good nights last month, with good darkness, transparency, and seeing.
Keith
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Oberwerk 11x56
Orion 8XTi
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: Estonia
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Quote:
Quote:
Under very dark skies, with plenty of aperture, swirls are visible, as well as curved bright stretches, but it's not a defined spiral even then.
Mr. Hrundi,
Depends on what you consider plenty of aperture. In my 8" f/6 under gray skies, the spiral structure of M51 is all there with a vague hint of the bridge to companion, NGC 5195 at just 49x. Pending favorable sky conditions, the galaxy takes on high power well. It pops real nice if I push the mag. to just over 100x..or even better at 122x. Finding that nice sweet spot is key.
Viewing M51 in the 14" dob is really nice...
Viewing M51 in the 18" dob is extremely nice...
Viewing M51 in the 25" dob is out of this world.
Clear Skies to All!
Plenty of aperture is entirely subjective, I agree. And M51 is incredibly nice from a dark site with a whole variety of apertures.
My point, that I was somewhat trying to make, was this though:
It took Lord Rosse pointing a 72 inch telescope at the galaxy for it to be recognized as a spiral. And even then the sketch that I've seen is quite a bit different from someone observing it today would sketch.
And, in my albeit limited observing experience, I've also noticed that while the detail that constructs a feature can be seen, it also takes plenty of study, as well as knowing what you're looking at to make this detail pop into that feature.
At least this is my experience and opinion. Milage tends to vary with different combinations of eyes, brains, skies and apertures. 
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TheRock
super member
Reged: 01/13/08
Posts: 112
Loc: Bergen County, NJ
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Javier,
I live in Saddle Brook, just a couple of miles from you. I've been able to see M51 with my CPC 11", but not even a hint of spiral structure. As a matter of fact, even with my Mallincam astro video camera attached, I can only see the spiral structure faintly. You have to remember that we are in perhaps the worst light polluted area in the entire planet.
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Richard
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"Get busy living, or get busy dying" - The Shawshank Redemption (1994)
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18" f/4.2 Truss Dob in Progress (2009)
Celestron CPC 1100 (2008)
Celestron 130 SLT (2008)
Tasco 114mm Newtonian (1995)
Meade 60mm Refractor (1986)
MallinCam Hyper Plus B/W
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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This whole area is really horrible when it comes to light pollution. I live right near route 4 and the main drag is only two miles away from my house so the lights are killing me.
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SPACEMAN D
member
Reged: 06/07/09
Posts: 10
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Hello,
I think you indeed saw M51. But no spiral. If you look true a finder you will clearly see a triangle of stars
something like this
.
. .
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M51
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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I tied to double check things this past Satruday night but there were very thin clouds in the general area and they killed any chances of seeing M51. But... time got away from me and I did get to view each star that form Cassiopeia, most of the stars that form Cygnus and Altair as well a Jupiter. I looked at my watch and it was 3AM. 
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Avatar
sage
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Last evening, around midnight, it was reasonably clear here for a change, so I tried again to view M51. I've been trying to view this one for some time now (weather permitting) with no success so far. Seems that it shouldn't be too difficult because of its magnitude and not too great area. But, still no success. I know that I'm looking right at it, but not seeing it, because I've located the area very specifically via nearby stars,,,the small trianglle of three ~7th mag stars. I know the relation of M51 to these, starting from eta UMa => 24CNv. So, I guess there's just too much light pollution and too small aperture. I have been able to view, dimly a number of other galaxies this spring with the same scope though. Also, I've been trying for M101 and am having the same problem. Easy to pretty accurately locate what I know is the right area, but I can't see anything. However, M101, although brighter, covers a much larger area than M51.
Bruce
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: Estonia
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I wonder, can you see the milky way where you live?
I'm fairly sure that it's visible at moderate apertures whenever the MW is.
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Muffin Research
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 992
Loc: Belgium
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I never get M51 from light polluted home with an 8" SCT.
I have however seen it through a 20" dobson on a very dark site and in those circumstances spiral structure is very obvious.
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www.myspace.com/1978recordingstudio : Ambient/Experimental/Electro
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wfj
sage
Reged: 01/10/08
Posts: 258
Loc: California, Santa Cruz County
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Get all sorts of different results myself depending on seeing/LP.
Have a 4" left in the car for the times I'm spontaneously traveling through dark sky, and I've hauled it out and seen what seems like a lumpy circular haze around two fuzz spots.
When I've had 10" along, I definitely see kinks and arms, but they're not pronounced.
Near my orange LP level house, I've had good nights where my 12" has clearly shown some of the brighter HII regions, which has caused my jaw to drop, as most of the time I'm lucky to see a faint circle of haze with two fuzzy lumps with it.
To this end, last thursday night I was waiting for my son to finish up a project outside, keeping him company. The sky cleared while I waited, so I set up the 12" briefly and fined up collimation, jumping up magnification slowly up to 900x. Then as he finished up, we both looked in and around M13 at 250x-900x, and the sky was stable and dark, he found IC 4617 (!) for the first time, and we had a long unexpected discussion about globs! Shortly after had to quit.
Often I can gauge the night by if I can't see much difference through the 4" or the 12" - usually pack it in very quickly then. The variability of the sky greatly exceeds the variability of my instruments.
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Avatar
sage
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Actually, No, I can't see the Milky Way no way, from my home site! Really lots of light pollution where I'm currently living. For many years I lived way up on coastal property of Lake Huron (one of the Great Lakes). Absolutely black skies always,but this was many years ago. Then, for about 23 years I lived in Massachusetts, some of that time spent in the western part of the state. I remember wonderful nights,,with no street lights, in western, northern Massachusetts near the Vermont border. Skies as black as black can be, and the Milky Way clearly visible, in both of these northern locations. Here, I usually have to concentrate to see a 5th magnitude star. On some evenings I've got to really look hard just to make out 4th mag stars.
With that said, I can make out globs, so far, only down to mag 7.7. Dimmest galaxy only to about mag 8.4 or 8.5. This really limits the DSOs that I can view. However, many planetary nebulae seem so far to present little problem. They're small,,so concentrated points, easily seen.
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1228
Loc: Estonia
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I'd say try to go to a darker location and catch it from there. From dark skies, M51 is incredibly easy. Then you can familiarize yourself with the object and location, and it'd help with picking it out where you live.
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Javier
sage
Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 430
Loc: New Jersey
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Yup, weather permitting I'll be at a nice dark location this Saturday.
Jav
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ensign
member
Reged: 12/16/08
Posts: 37
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Are you able to travel to a darker observing location? I find that dark skies make even more difference than aperture. At our club's mag 6 site in my 4.3 inch refractor a sighting of M51/NGC5195 and even M101 is a sure thing - you know you've seen it!
Michael
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- Mike
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Modified 10" Sky-Watcher Dob
William Optics Megrez 110/EZTouch
Nagler Type 4 - 12,17,22
Pentax XW - 10,7
William Optics UWAN 28
Siebert Observatory class 40
Other assorted items too numerous to mention
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Avatar
sage
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Jav,
You live in NJ? Is the dark vewing site in question in southern NJ by any chance? I'm always interested in finding dark, easy access sites, that are astro friendly.
Bruce
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Avatar
sage
Reged: 05/27/06
Posts: 232
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Mike,
Where is your Mag 6 Site?
Bruce
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