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nykaver
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what's up with SHS yahoo group?
      #3177182 - 06/22/09 09:28 PM

Hi all. I'm interested in building a spectrohelioscope and tried to join the SHS yahoo group. It looks like there's been recent activity based on the number of posts in the last months. I signed up last week but have yet to be approved as a new member by the group owner. I tried to email the group owner directly at spectrohelioscopes-owner (at) yahoogroups (dot) com but the email bounced back.

Sorry for the other group subject matter but I figured there would be some cross-membership.

Thanks,
Paul

--------------------
1958 Schaefer 8" f/8
Unitron 4" Mod 150
Zeiss AS63/840
Zeiss Asiola
Orange C8, C11


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: nykaver]
      #3177219 - 06/22/09 09:47 PM

I had a similar experience in the past - can't remember whether it was with SHS or another Yahoo group

BUT

The moderator had long since abandoned the group so members were free to post but there was nobody around to let any new members in.

I'm not sure, but I think that SHS was moderated by Fred Veio. His posts turn up from time to time on some of the other Yahoo groups. Yahoo Solar Observers is one. Why not try posting there and see what happens?

Fred is almost desperate to find new converts to the SHS building world, and if anybody can, he'll figure a way of making sure you get to know all you should know.

He HAS turned up sometimes within the last three months, but I can't be sure I've seen posts any more recent than that from him.

Gene Baraff


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3177343 - 06/22/09 10:56 PM

I shared some emails with him a year ago or so when I was learning about SHS design. Make sure to read his book. It would be a good subject for a young enterprising astronomer to take up and write a new book. Fred's manuscript is typewritten and therefore is hard to update with easier ways of explaining things. If his book is no longer online let me know and I can email you a copy. Much of the SHS information seems to be at risk of disappearing from the net.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DesertRat
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177429 - 06/22/09 11:45 PM

Most of the yahoo groups I've given up on due to poor management and off topic junk. We need to get Fred over here or on the ATM forum. Get his book like Colin says. There are others who have built on his plans, here and over in Europe.

My own recommendation would be to build a solar spectroscope first. If you are already an accomplished builder then maybe you could jump into a SHS. I think Dave Groski is building an SHS currently - he often contributes here on ATM related stuff. If I'm wrong about that I am sure that Dave is knowledgeable about SHS.

I see no problems posting SHS questions here on this forum, many of us are interested in its technology and history, but the ATM forum is your best bet.

Glenn

--------------------
Brandon 94mm f7, Televue TV102 f8.6; GM8
Baader Wedge & Filters, Coronado SM90/BF30
IM715; C11 & C14; G-11 Gemini


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DesertRat]
      #3177445 - 06/22/09 11:57 PM

Dave has helped me a lot in my SHS design. There ar e a few choices to make in the beginning and understanding the compromises they cause later on is important. I chose rotating prisms for mine. That made some unexpected design changes. Fred's book covers it pretty well. Make sure that you slit motion matches the number of folds you have in the light path or your slits will stack images with the wrong edges matching.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177462 - 06/23/09 12:09 AM

Quote:

Make sure that you slit motion matches the number of folds you have in the light path or your slits will stack images with the wrong edges matching.




Do you mean that - since each reflection from a plane mirror in the optical path reverses right to left - if you have an even number of folds (plane mirror reflections), the entrance slit and exit slit have to move in the same direction, wheras if you have an odd number of folds, entrance slit and exit slit should move in the opposite direction?

Gene Baraff


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3177522 - 06/23/09 01:12 AM

That is the idea but I am too tired to consider if you have it right or backwards ( you seem like you think these things out so I bet you have it right). I know many of the early SHSs were built backwards and had to be fixed later in the large observatories.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177802 - 06/23/09 08:23 AM

Quote:

That is the idea but I am too tired to consider if you have it right or backwards ( you seem like you think these things out so I bet you have it right). I know many of the early SHSs were built backwards and had to be fixed later in the large observatories.




No. This was one from the top of the head, so it is 50-50 that I got it wrong. The purpose of my post was to clarify the idea - not the details.

In either case - right or wrong - the effect on the image would be, I think, no different from what observers used to the view through a Newt encounter upon their first view through a refractor with a diagonal ahead of the eyepiece.

The information about an SHG (not an SHS) that I found to be most fascinating was the description of a computer algorithm which is able to remove the effects of both a less than perfect scanning mechanism, and less than perfectly dust-free slits. In spirit, it was related to what the astrophotographers do when they use flats to subtract out noise from their shots. In this case, the "flat" is produced by an averaging algorithm, first in the x direction and then, separately, in the y direction.

The one handles non uniformities in the x direction due to unsteady drive speed. The other handles non uniformities in the y direction due to dust on the slits.

Gene


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nykaver
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3177814 - 06/23/09 08:30 AM

Thanks for all the advise. Yes I have Fred's manuscript. I received it from him by mail about 15 years ago (very nostalgic). No criticism of Fred but it's not the easiest read, lacks good organization.

I found myself paging through ATM Book 1 a few nights ago and the RWP drawings of the SHS really brought back memories of my youth.

By the way, Fred's original manuscript along with several updates are here http://www.spectrohelioscope.org/net/

It sounds like a long term build if the parts are gathered little by little or through surplus sources. Some of the designs (lower resolution) really sound fairly simple to construct.

Thank you,
Paul

--------------------
1958 Schaefer 8" f/8
Unitron 4" Mod 150
Zeiss AS63/840
Zeiss Asiola
Orange C8, C11


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: nykaver]
      #3177941 - 06/23/09 10:07 AM

I would welcome a on going discussion on SHS and the modern take off Spectroheliograph (SHG) that uses a web cam to collect the slit images and add them together to make a 2D image. Both a SHS and SHG have the advantage that one can get to band width of 0.4A or lower and can observe the Sun in any wavelength you wish.
I have compact SHS about 90% finished. One can make one for around $400 or less depending on how good you are at collecting parts.
Here is a quick review of how a SHS works. There are three basic parts 1) a telescope to form the image of a the Sun. A long focus 60mm to 70mm refractor is ideal. So 60x910mm refractor and 2x barlow would work well. I'm using 70mm x 910mm refractor with 2x barlow I got off on Ebay $35. 2) a long focus spectroscope. There are many different styles of spectroscope. I'm using a Littrow type which is made from a 50mm achromat with 1018mm focal length and 1200 lpi grating blazed at 500nm. The white light image of the Sun is focused on the entrance slit of the spectroscope. The spectroscope allows one to view the spectrum of the section of the Sun that is over the entrance slit. A second slit placed over the exit of the spectroscope narrows down the image you can view and defines the bandwidth of the light. The narrower the slit, the tighter the bandwidth. You center up the H-alpha in the exit slit by turning the diffraction grating and narrow the slit to the bandwidth you want. All one would see at this point is dark H-alpha line and as you moved the Sun over the entrance slit, any place on the surface that there was a H-alpha emmission feature, there would be a bright spot. If you looked at the limb, you can widen the exit slit and see prominences. 3) To see the whole disk or part of the disk in 2D you need the third part of the SHS, the image sythesizer. What this is a way of scanning the disk of the Sun over the entrance slit of the spectroscope quickly and taking the slit image produced at the exit slit and stacking them next to each other. It sort of works like a scanning in CRT.
You can have two rotating prism, moving slits, or oscillating mirrors. They all do the same thing. They move the image of the Sun quickly over the entrance slit and then scan the images of the monochrome line images in the eyepiece. It sort of works like a movie projector. So when the top of the Sun is projected onto the entrance slit, there is slit image in monochrome light projected at the top of image in the eyepiece. Then the next image a little farther down, etc, etc. Because of the persistance of vision one sees a 2D image.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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AlienFirstClass
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3190895 - 06/30/09 12:56 PM

Quote:

I would welcome a on going discussion on SHS and the modern take off Spectroheliograph (SHG) that uses a web cam to collect the slit images and add them together to make a 2D image. Both a SHS and SHG have the advantage that one can get to band width of 0.4A or lower and can observe the Sun in any wavelength you wish.
I have compact SHS about 90% finished. One can make one for around $400 or less depending on how good you are at collecting parts.
Here is a quick review of how a SHS works. There are three basic parts 1) a telescope to form the image of a the Sun. A long focus 60mm to 70mm refractor is ideal. So 60x910mm refractor and 2x barlow would work well. I'm using 70mm x 910mm refractor with 2x barlow I got off on Ebay $35. 2) a long focus spectroscope. There are many different styles of spectroscope. I'm using a Littrow type which is made from a 50mm achromat with 1018mm focal length and 1200 lpi grating blazed at 500nm. The white light image of the Sun is focused on the entrance slit of the spectroscope. The spectroscope allows one to view the spectrum of the section of the Sun that is over the entrance slit. A second slit placed over the exit of the spectroscope narrows down the image you can view and defines the bandwidth of the light. The narrower the slit, the tighter the bandwidth. You center up the H-alpha in the exit slit by turning the diffraction grating and narrow the slit to the bandwidth you want. All one would see at this point is dark H-alpha line and as you moved the Sun over the entrance slit, any place on the surface that there was a H-alpha emmission feature, there would be a bright spot. If you looked at the limb, you can widen the exit slit and see prominences. 3) To see the whole disk or part of the disk in 2D you need the third part of the SHS, the image sythesizer. What this is a way of scanning the disk of the Sun over the entrance slit of the spectroscope quickly and taking the slit image produced at the exit slit and stacking them next to each other. It sort of works like a scanning in CRT.
You can have two rotating prism, moving slits, or oscillating mirrors. They all do the same thing. They move the image of the Sun quickly over the entrance slit and then scan the images of the monochrome line images in the eyepiece. It sort of works like a movie projector. So when the top of the Sun is projected onto the entrance slit, there is slit image in monochrome light projected at the top of image in the eyepiece. Then the next image a little farther down, etc, etc. Because of the persistance of vision one sees a 2D image.

- Dave




And how does the webcam version do its image?

I too would love to have an ongoing discussion on these instruments.


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ragebot
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: nykaver]
      #3191060 - 06/30/09 02:09 PM

Hi,

I am in a Yahoo group called spectro-l. Seems like it took a while to get in after I tried to join. Not sure if this is the group you are talking about or not; but you may want to check it out.

--------------------
Meade ETX 90, Meade AR5, Orion ED80, Atlas GT, 8 in Newt, Coronado DS SM40, Garrett 10.5X70, Sigma SD10, SD14, Canon 1D2, Xti, Nikon CP4500, C-14


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: ragebot]
      #3191335 - 06/30/09 04:18 PM

"And how does the webcam version do its image?" Here is link on how to make a 2D image with specroheliograph and a webcam. Look under spectroheliographyhttp://www.astrosurf.com/thizy/lhires3/index-en.html
All you do is make a movie the spectral line of interest as the Sun drifts across the entrance slit of the spectroheliograph. From each frame of the movie, the image of line is cut out and stack next to each other. The narrower the slice, the narrower the bandwidth of the image. One can get down to 0.2A without much trouble.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3191688 - 06/30/09 07:37 PM

This was done with film in the old days. You would sweep the slit across the film and then develop it.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3191877 - 06/30/09 09:39 PM

Quote:

This was done with film in the old days. You would sweep the slit across the film and then develop it.




But there is something elegant in this new wrinkle, wouldn't you say? In the old days, the image of the sun was held stationary by a heliostat or whatever, while both the entrance and exit slits moved in parallel - one across the stationary image of the sun, the other across the stationary piece of film.

Here, the sun drifts, the camcorder records, and the software makes a picture out of the movie.

Gene


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3191905 - 06/30/09 10:04 PM

Unless I miss-understood before that the drive was turned off and the scope drifted across the sun while the film was moved across the slit. I belive this predates the SHS. I think this is what inspired Hale to invent the SHS.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3191927 - 06/30/09 10:19 PM

Quote:

Unless I miss-understood before that the drive was turned off and the scope drifted across the sun while the film was moved across the slit. I belive this predates the SHS. I think this is what inspired Hale to invent the SHS.




I stand corrected, I guess.
This is a great group to be wrong on. I'm now getting pretty good at it.

Gene


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3191944 - 06/30/09 10:27 PM

Dave will correct us both. He advised me to get a book published in the 1890s called "The Sun" and if I remember using a spectroscope aand opening the slit to see promaninces and sweeping the film accross the slit were used by then. Hale invented the SHS much later like the '20s or the '30s in his Masters Thesis.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DesertRat
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3191958 - 06/30/09 10:38 PM

Gene,

You may be correct after all, sortof. Before Hale built the SHS he built the SHG or spectroheliograph which I believe in some configurations did scan the image by turning the drive off. Other models by him, and Deslandres in France, scanned with a moving slit.

Glenn

--------------------
Brandon 94mm f7, Televue TV102 f8.6; GM8
Baader Wedge & Filters, Coronado SM90/BF30
IM715; C11 & C14; G-11 Gemini


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AlienFirstClass
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DesertRat]
      #3192960 - 07/01/09 01:01 PM

How small of a SHS has been built by an amateur?

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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3193115 - 07/01/09 02:25 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

Brian Manning made a nice one using a 3" f/15 refractor and my unit which I'm working on now is similar in design. It uses 70mm Celestron refractor.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1982JBAA...92..112M

There was one build by a high school student written up in Sky and Telescope in the 70's made from two 50mm bino-objectives and inexpensive transmission grating but you really don't want to go smaller then around a 45" fl for the spectroscope section or the width the spectral line is narrower and that requires a narrow slit openning.
For a spectroheliograph used with a webcam, the spectroscope section can be very small. An achromat with about 7" focal length and a 2400 lpm grating would work very well and teamed with a 60mm to 80mm refractor would make for super imaging system.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.

Edited by DAVIDG (07/02/09 11:11 AM)


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Charl
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3193173 - 07/01/09 02:49 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Another way to capture the image from a SHG is to replace the second slit with a linear CCD array as done here by Philippe Rousselle.

Monochrome linear CCD arrays are readily available for next to nothing, I salvaged this one from a bar code scanner.


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Erix
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Charl]
      #3193287 - 07/01/09 03:40 PM

Great read guys. Thanks! A friend just sent me his grating (1200 lines/mm) for a similar project I'm going to be starting soon.

--------------------
Erika
Automatic doors make me feel like a Jedi.

Zhumell 16", 10" LX200 Classic,Orion ED80, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm
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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Erix]
      #3193467 - 07/01/09 05:15 PM

Wow! that is great news Erika.

I think it would be fun to design a less than $100 Spectroscope with a transmission grating and a video camera for making synthetic SHS images.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Charl]
      #3193475 - 07/01/09 05:17 PM

The nice thing about a 2D detector vs a linear one is that one gets many wavelengths at one time. So in a single image you can have 50 nm or more on each side of the H-alpha line or what ever line you wish Uses software you can then select different wavelengths to turn into a image. This easily allows Dopper studies to be done or image, say the Calcium H and Calcium K lines at the exact same time.
Phil did a first class job on his setup but it is a custom unit with custom software. Free software like IRIS is available to both acguire and process the spectral line AVI movies and make them into a 2D image.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3193531 - 07/01/09 05:41 PM

Quote:

Wow! that is great news Erika.

I think it would be fun to design a less than $100 Spectroscope with a transmission grating and a video camera for making synthetic SHS images.




Piece of cake with money left over! Use this grating from Surplus Shed http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m1541d.html and
two 50mm binocular objectives with about 7" focal length. Surplus Shed has a bunch in the $7, to $10 range and get a hold of a copy "A spectroscope Attachment for Viewing Solar Promincences" by Jack Newton published in the Feb. 1970 Sky and Telescope. The only modification I would do the Newton's design is use a rotatable flat mirror in between the transmission grating and the second bino-objective. The mirror will easily allow one to selection any wavelength they want. Newton's design is fixed for the H-alpha line
If you already have a reflective type grating, you use a the Arectri type layout.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3193587 - 07/01/09 06:07 PM

I can make transmision gratings all day long. For $100 I could easily make 20 2.5 x 2.5" transmision gratings at around 800 lpi. They would fade over time but it would be a cheap way to go. If you cut each piece into 4 gratings you would have 80 gratings for $100. My film goes up to 2000 LPI but that would take some experimentation.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Erix
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3193841 - 07/01/09 08:11 PM

Cool! I have a LOT of reading to do before I really dig my fingers into this project. I know I'll need quite a bit of input as the project progresses, so thanks for any advice you guys can give me.

--------------------
Erika
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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Erix]
      #3193926 - 07/01/09 08:56 PM

BobH and I are both holographers and used to making very complex gratings. If you need any grating help let one of us know.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3193934 - 07/01/09 09:03 PM

Quote:

I can make transmision gratings all day long. For $100 I could easily make 20 2.5 x 2.5" transmision gratings at around 800 lpi. They would fade over time but it would be a cheap way to go. If you cut each piece into 4 gratings you would have 80 gratings for $100. My film goes up to 2000 LPI but that would take some experimentation.




But isn't even that higher figure (2000 lpi) inadequate for the intended use here?

Not knocking. Just asking.

I thought that the dispersion of such a grating would be only 1/7th to 1/12th of what you usually need in a spectroscope.

Along that same line of reasoning: I don't understand how the 2400 lpi unit that David G mentioned gives enough dispersion to be useful. Can you (Dave) explain a bit further?

Thanks.

Gene


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3194037 - 07/01/09 09:56 PM

It depends on what order of the grating you are trying to use. If you look at the grating equation and substitute orders 0 through 3 you will start to figure out what happens.

This article is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_grating

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3194123 - 07/01/09 10:39 PM

Quote:

It depends on what order of the grating you are trying to use. If you look at the grating equation and substitute orders 0 through 3 you will start to figure out what happens.

This article is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_grating




No time to read the wiki article yet

but

as you go to higher orders, you lose intensity (unless the grating is blazed to put light into those higher orders) and you get overlap with other orders.

Would the gratings you were talking about be blazed?

Gene


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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3194137 - 07/01/09 10:47 PM

No, if I were to make transmision gratings they would be simply black and white sine waves recorded in silver halide materials. I can make them work at different angles. They would not have the efficiency of a blazed grating.

My SHS was designed about a 2400 LPI blazed grating.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3194856 - 07/02/09 11:10 AM

You need a grating that has at least 600 lines per millimeter to get enough disperison for the short focal length lens used in a small spectroscope, and used with a webcam. The one I recommended from Surplus Shed has 15000 lines per inch or 590 lines per mm and only cost $15.00
In reflective type gratings, the grooves are cut at a certain angle to concentrate the energy over a certain wavelength range. This is known as the blaze angle. For visual work you want a grating blazed at around 550 nm is which a common. This will allow both H-alpha and CaK images to be taken. If you wanted to do just H-alpha work you can purchased one blazed at 650nm or for CaK work on blazed at 400nm.
If your purchasing a used grating be sure to know the blaze angle. Infared blazed grating are fairly common with a blaze of over 1000nm but when used in the visual they would provide a dim image.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3195158 - 07/02/09 01:55 PM

So my grating must be 2400 L/mm. I choose it from a table from Veio's book.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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DAVIDG
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3196304 - 07/03/09 01:25 AM

Quote:

So my grating must be 2400 L/mm. I choose it from a table from Veio's book.



It depends on the focal length of the optics in the spectroscope but the least amount of grooves/mm would be 600 L/mm. Having a 2400 L/mm grating means that the optics can be of shorter focal length to achieve the needed dispersion. The larger the dispersion, the wider the spectral lines which results in wider slit widths. The wider the slit width the more tolerance you have in the mechanics and alignement of the optics to achieve the bandwidth you want.
In a small spectroheliograph, the dispersion needs to be such that the width of spectral lines are at least as wide as a pixel in the camera your using to image them, and having them 3 pixel wide or wider is better for signal to noise.

Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3196472 - 07/03/09 05:18 AM

My fl is 900mm. 90mm at f/10.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3196665 - 07/03/09 09:12 AM

Quote:

I can make transmision gratings all day long. For $100 I could easily make 20 2.5 x 2.5" transmision gratings at around 800 lpi. They would fade over time but it would be a cheap way to go. If you cut each piece into 4 gratings you would have 80 gratings for $100. My film goes up to 2000 LPI but that would take some experimentation.




Then I assume - from the way this thread developed subsequently - that this statement was just a typo: That you had meant to say 880 lpmm and 2000 lpmm, and not lpi?

If so, I withdraw all the questions I had asked when you first wrote this.

Gene


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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3196903 - 07/03/09 11:20 AM

Quote:

My fl is 900mm. 90mm at f/10.




With a 2400 l/mm grating, and 900mm focal length for the optics used in the spectroscope, I calculated that the linear dispersion would be 0.35mm/Angstrom. So if you want a bandwidth of 0.4A, the slit width would need to 0.14mm or 0.0055 inches. That is not difficult to do.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Gene Baraff]
      #3196931 - 07/03/09 11:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I can make transmision gratings all day long. For $100 I could easily make 20 2.5 x 2.5" transmision gratings at around 800 lpi. They would fade over time but it would be a cheap way to go. If you cut each piece into 4 gratings you would have 80 gratings for $100. My film goes up to 2000 LPI but that would take some experimentation.




Then I assume - from the way this thread developed subsequently - that this statement was just a typo: That you had meant to say 880 lpmm and 2000 lpmm, and not lpi?

If so, I withdraw all the questions I had asked when you first wrote this.

Gene




That is correct. I can interfer two 532nm laser beams and record the interference as either a reflection or transmision grating. The efficiency on the reflection gratings is quite low. I might be able to hit 30%. By changeing the angles of the laser beams I can vary the spacing. My films thereotical limit is 2000 lpmm. I know people who can make DCG reflection gratings with much higher efficiencies at in shorter wavelengths. I have seen gratings made this way to 8000 lpmm.

My friend Ed wrote this for one of my sites:

http://www.holowiki.com/index.php/Holography_Transmission_Equations_Part_I#Spatial_Frequency

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3196952 - 07/03/09 11:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My fl is 900mm. 90mm at f/10.




With a 2400 l/mm grating, and 900mm focal length for the optics used in the spectroscope, I calculated that the linear dispersion would be 0.35mm/Angstrom. So if you want a bandwidth of 0.4A, the slit width would need to 0.14mm or 0.0055 inches. That is not difficult to do.

- Dave




Thank you Dave! That was my next project before I had to move. I am hoping to make an adjustable slit. I have some old veneer heads laying around. Now I just have to rebuild my metal shop. I think it will be a year before I can do ATM projects inside again. I have 3 of the objectives. I also have some prisms to make rotating slit motion. I never found the ones from old movie projectors so I am going to have to glue up some normal prisms. 4 sides will give me a start. If I find some old projector parts I can redesign later. I keep looking on Astromart for a large flat for a heliostat bu so far I have net seen one and had the money at the saem time.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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Gene Baraff
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3197229 - 07/03/09 02:35 PM

Quote:

I can interfere two 532nm laser beams and record the interference as either a reflection or transmision grating.





I had wondered if this was what you were doing but didn't ask because I thought that doing so would highjack the thread.

Gene


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nytecam
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: DesertRat]
      #3197437 - 07/03/09 05:13 PM

Quote:

Before Hale built the SHS he built the SHG or spectroheliograph which I believe in some configurations did scan the image by turning the drive off. Other models by him, and Deslandres in France, scanned with a moving slit.


Try ATM - Scientific American 1933; p180-214; Solar research for amateurs/ Hale's spectrohelio-scope/graph detailed drawings/photos -if dated by today's standards.

My spectrohelioscope had a fl of 900mm and used a single large lens segmented for both primary OG imaging the sun and auto-collimator [eg spectroscope] with 600 l/mm grating ruled by Brian Manning showing the idea/article at http://www.astroman.fsnet.co.uk/optics.htm

I recently sold the grating for a new SHS project.

--------------------
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AlienFirstClass
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3198802 - 07/04/09 02:15 PM

Could someone discuss what type of surplus equipment one could salvage parts from for solar instruments?

Lens?

Sensors?

Gratings?

For an example...I have several surplus diffraction gratings...how do I determine if they are suitable for solar instruments?

Thanks


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AlienFirstClass
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: Charl]
      #3198826 - 07/04/09 02:30 PM

Quote:

Another way to capture the image from a SHG is to replace the second slit with a linear CCD array as done here by Philippe Rousselle.

Monochrome linear CCD arrays are readily available for next to nothing, I salvaged this one from a bar code scanner.




Could discuss more as to where to get arrays in surplus electronics?

Thanks


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AlienFirstClass
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: colinsk]
      #3198842 - 07/04/09 02:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My fl is 900mm. 90mm at f/10.




With a 2400 l/mm grating, and 900mm focal length for the optics used in the spectroscope, I calculated that the linear dispersion would be 0.35mm/Angstrom. So if you want a bandwidth of 0.4A, the slit width would need to 0.14mm or 0.0055 inches. That is not difficult to do.

- Dave




Thank you Dave! That was my next project before I had to move. I am hoping to make an adjustable slit. I have some old veneer heads laying around. Now I just have to rebuild my metal shop. I think it will be a year before I can do ATM projects inside again. I have 3 of the objectives. I also have some prisms to make rotating slit motion. I never found the ones from old movie projectors so I am going to have to glue up some normal prisms. 4 sides will give me a start. If I find some old projector parts I can redesign later. I keep looking on Astromart for a large flat for a heliostat bu so far I have net seen one and had the money at the saem time.




Could someone discuss what suitable parts from projectors will work for a SHS?

Thanks


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colinsk
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Re: what's up with SHS yahoo group? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3199779 - 07/05/09 04:00 AM

The best explanation of how a SHS works is to look up Fred Veio's book. I am going to over simplify here a little. The idea is you sweep a slit past an image of the sun and bounce it from a diffraction grating. You then sweep another slit across the spectrum at the same rate. There are quite a few ways to do this in practice. One is to take the rotating prisms from an old movie projector. I have seen some large 8 sided prisms that would spin inside a projector. With two of them you can use them to sweep an image by a stationary slit.

This mechanical task is the key to making a successful SHS. I have seen at least three different ways of doing it but I am sure there are many more. It takes a fair amount of planning to make it all work.

You can measure your diffraction gratings by bouncing light of them and measuring the spectrum. If you bounce white light off it and project to a white card a know distance away you can you the dispersion equation to calculate a rough estimate for the grating frequency. If you want to know exactly you can use a sodium light or something else that you can know the exact frequency of the lines. Then if you know the distance between two lines and the distance from the grating to the projection screen you can calculate the spacing. This will not tell you the efficiency however.

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
LDX-75
AT Voyager


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