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Equipment Discussions >> Observatories

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AlienFirstClass
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Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 702
Observatories at Star Parties..options?
      #3180763 - 06/24/09 06:49 PM

What do amateurs bring to star parties in the manner of observatories?

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Bob Griffiths
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3180919 - 06/24/09 08:18 PM

I'll wait for Jim (Snaproll) to bounce on this one... !!!!!

Bob G.

--------------------
CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter

39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W

The sky over my head....



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Rick Woods
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #3181681 - 06/25/09 08:38 AM

I usually bring the star party to my observatory. I have two sites: on the west side is the roll-off with the LX200. On the east (about 200 yards away) is a site where I set up various telescopes from 6" to 13" in the open, along with chairs and tables. People hike between the sites to look through the different scopes, but the east site is where all the main partying goes on.
We keep the chairs and tables several feet from the telescopes so nobody spills their margaritas on anything optical.

--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
83% of all statistics are meaningless.


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sailor70623
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #3186529 - 06/28/09 01:47 AM

Margaritas! I've got to go to one of your star parties.

--------------------
Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60


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PhilCo126
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: sailor70623]
      #3188274 - 06/29/09 05:51 AM

Deployable Skyshed POD (Personal Obs Dom):
http://www.altairastro.com/pod.htm

--------------------
TS 152/1200 ( f 7.90 ) Achromatic Refractor
Saving/Looking for 180/1620 ( f 9 ) Refractor


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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus


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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3190221 - 06/30/09 01:02 AM

Quote:

What do amateurs bring to star parties in the manner of observatories?




Apparently most star parties don't have observatories set up....why?


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csa/montanaModerator
Den Mother
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3190981 - 06/30/09 01:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What do amateurs bring to star parties in the manner of observatories?




Apparently most star parties don't have observatories set up....why?




I would guess, not enough room to pack one, while traveling; plus time spent setting one up. I would also guess, maybe restricted space on the observing field.

--------------------
Carol


AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35

DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2



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rodney
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #3191025 - 06/30/09 01:54 PM

I held out for Jim(snaproll) to chime in, but he must be busy. The 8 foot round building Explora Dome he had last year logged in some serious star party time. If memory serves me corectly it took him longer to put his gear in the observatory than it did to set up the observatory. The entire observatory was transported on its side on a tilt trailer. He would back up to a location. Release the tilt pin and set the observatory in place. Done, finished, viola. He stated it took longer to find a parking spot than it did to set up the observatory. Putting it back on the trailer took a little longer but not much by any means. No fumbling around with bolts or struggling to find this and that. No sweating to pieces in the hot sun while assembling. it was already assembled and ready to go.

As far as space requirements at star parties. It is no more of a concern than a person with a trailer they sleep in. I know at the Almost Heaven Star Party there are trailers (campers) that are HUGE and they have no impact on the surrounding observers.

Its all a matter of what you want at your star party. Kendrick tents are awesome, AstroGazers are great, both of which provide more than enough protection from the elements. But there is something to be said about a fully enclosed lockable observatory.

Clear skies,

--------------------
My Explora Dome construction is here:
www.exploradome.us
Rodney

Meade 10 SCT
AT 8/F4 imaging scope
13 Truss
C8-NGT
Orion 80mm/F11
Canon 300D
Canon XSi
Two AS-GT mounts
Extremely happy Explora Dome home observatory owner


Edited by rodney (06/30/09 01:55 PM)


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Bob Griffiths
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: rodney]
      #3191354 - 06/30/09 04:26 PM

Jim (Snaproll) has got to be busy.... that is why I made the comment in the very first post in this thread (That I will wait for Jim to jump in)...

IF I remember correctly he now uses an Astrogaser because it does not require a tow vehicle and he can actually sleep inside at night... So the AstroGazer is plenty big enough. I can't remember him saying anything negative about it EXCEPT it was like pitching a tent and had to be put up..BUT that chore was offset by its folded size and ease of hauling INSIDE his vehicle...

I would think you could search this forum under Snaproll (as the poster) and/or AstroGazer in the Body

Bob G

--------------------
CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter

39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W

The sky over my head....



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Snaproll
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Bob Griffiths]
      #3193742 - 07/01/09 07:18 PM

Yeah, I've been in scramble mode, getting the house ready for the 4th.

For portable observatories you have a few choices.

First and cheapest is an observing tent made by Kendrik that is similar to a rolloff (zipoff) and "warmroom" (conventional tent) attached to it. There is also a Chinese copy on the market. These would do well probably for small scopes, but would nave no wind, dew or light protection, plus I think they would heat up quite a bit during the day. These go for ~$200-$400 or so.

Next choice would be the Astrogazer. This is what I ended up with for star parties. It's a conduit/PVC structure coverd by heavy duty weatherproofed ripstop nylon. It offers wind, dew and light proection, can easily fit a 14" SCT scope or a dob up to about 16". They also run very cool during the day. One plus is the size, 10 feet in diameter which is large enough to hold several people and gear. It can also store in a closet or corner of the basement or garage when not in use. The downside to it is that it is not lockable so you really can't lock up and go sight seeing during the day if you have expensive gear in it. It is pretty weatherproof but there is no floor so there would be a leakage issue there. The roof is relatively waterproof so I wouldn't be concerned about heavy rain. High winds (40+) can be an issue. I've had it up in winds like this. There is a risk of the dome blowing off unless it is wired to the base and the base is augmented with heavy stakes (I use aircraft landing tiedowns). I still pull a trailer to take it as my small colorado can't fit the observatory and all the gear I take. With a large van or truck it probably wouldn't be an issue. Setup is about an hour and 15 minutes with a little practice. The AG, I haven't priced one in a while but they should be under $2000.

The next option is the an Exploradome on a tilt trailer. This was absolutely the easiest setup. The trailer tilts, then the "saddle" that holds the observatory is tilted and the observatory is up in one piece and ready to go. Literally it is 10 minutes until you're loading the scope inside. Just take off the straps, slide some counter weights to the back of the trailer, tilt it, (the observatory is right at its tipping point), then a little shoulder to get it past the tipping point. A winch rope keeps it from falling the rest of the way, Just crank the winch until the observatory is down, take off a couple more straps and it's ready to go. To load up takes about 20 minutes, but it's mainly just checking the straps and making sure it's ready to trail. Just back the trailer up to the observatory, tilt it, slide the lip under the bottom, put a couple of straps around the base and mid section, use the winch to crank it over, set it on the bed, then move the counterweights so the trailer bed goes level, then add a couple more straps to make sure everything is secure and away you go. This was by far the most portable rig. That I could lock up the gear and leave at a remote site was a real plus. The Exploradome provided the best wind, dew and light protection. The downside though was that it was a bear to pull with my little 5 cylinder truck. Also another thing is it is only comfortable for one or two people. When I had it at star parties, everybody wanted in, especially on windy or dewy nights! The whole rig is like pulling a camper, a small one, but it still needs a reasonable tow vehicle which mine was not. The whole weight of the trailer and dome was less than 2000 lbs, but the windage on the observatory and the height made it like pulling a small camper. After I got the Astrogazer I ended up using the Exploradome as my home observatory and the Astrogazer as my portable. This whole rig, with the trailer would be probably about $4000 or so, but it does provide a real observatory and fast setup time.

The last option would be a POD. These were designed as portables but to my knowledge, nobody has actually used one for this purpose (set up and tear down) on a regular star party basis. The downside as a portable would be the assembly and small size. Transporting one is going to take an entire vehicle or trailer, then it would have to be assembled. I think the dome quarters are something like 90 lbs and that means one person would have to lift 180 lbs per dome side up onto the wall. I would think a very level surface would be required as well (where the AG's legs can be adjusted 6" and the Exploradome had a solid bottom with a center hole for the tripod). I have never seen anything published on POD setup times, but I'm guessing with two people with tools and a level surface, it would probably still take the better part of a couple of hours. A bare bones POD (no bays) and shipping is probably going to be well over $2000. I would also worry about the wear and tear on the plastic and bolt holes etc from setup and teardowns.

Overall I think the Astrogazer is the best price point for a portable observatory. It's large and roomy, easy to store, can be set up by one person. The only downside is not being able to lock it up. That's not a real issue at a regular star party, but I wouldn't leave expensive small stuff in it and run to town.

Well, hope this helps.

--------------------
-Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II

old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images


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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 702
Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Snaproll]
      #3194178 - 07/01/09 11:09 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I've been in scramble mode, getting the house ready for the 4th.

For portable observatories you have a few choices.

First and cheapest is an observing tent made by Kendrik that is similar to a rolloff (zipoff) and "warmroom" (conventional tent) attached to it. There is also a Chinese copy on the market. These would do well probably for small scopes, but would nave no wind, dew or light protection, plus I think they would heat up quite a bit during the day. These go for ~$200-$400 or so.

Next choice would be the Astrogazer. This is what I ended up with for star parties. It's a conduit/PVC structure coverd by heavy duty weatherproofed ripstop nylon. It offers wind, dew and light proection, can easily fit a 14" SCT scope or a dob up to about 16". They also run very cool during the day. One plus is the size, 10 feet in diameter which is large enough to hold several people and gear. It can also store in a closet or corner of the basement or garage when not in use. The downside to it is that it is not lockable so you really can't lock up and go sight seeing during the day if you have expensive gear in it. It is pretty weatherproof but there is no floor so there would be a leakage issue there. The roof is relatively waterproof so I wouldn't be concerned about heavy rain. High winds (40+) can be an issue. I've had it up in winds like this. There is a risk of the dome blowing off unless it is wired to the base and the base is augmented with heavy stakes (I use aircraft landing tiedowns). I still pull a trailer to take it as my small colorado can't fit the observatory and all the gear I take. With a large van or truck it probably wouldn't be an issue. Setup is about an hour and 15 minutes with a little practice. The AG, I haven't priced one in a while but they should be under $2000.

The next option is the an Exploradome on a tilt trailer. This was absolutely the easiest setup. The trailer tilts, then the "saddle" that holds the observatory is tilted and the observatory is up in one piece and ready to go. Literally it is 10 minutes until you're loading the scope inside. Just take off the straps, slide some counter weights to the back of the trailer, tilt it, (the observatory is right at its tipping point), then a little shoulder to get it past the tipping point. A winch rope keeps it from falling the rest of the way, Just crank the winch until the observatory is down, take off a couple more straps and it's ready to go. To load up takes about 20 minutes, but it's mainly just checking the straps and making sure it's ready to trail. Just back the trailer up to the observatory, tilt it, slide the lip under the bottom, put a couple of straps around the base and mid section, use the winch to crank it over, set it on the bed, then move the counterweights so the trailer bed goes level, then add a couple more straps to make sure everything is secure and away you go. This was by far the most portable rig. That I could lock up the gear and leave at a remote site was a real plus. The Exploradome provided the best wind, dew and light protection. The downside though was that it was a bear to pull with my little 5 cylinder truck. Also another thing is it is only comfortable for one or two people. When I had it at star parties, everybody wanted in, especially on windy or dewy nights! The whole rig is like pulling a camper, a small one, but it still needs a reasonable tow vehicle which mine was not. The whole weight of the trailer and dome was less than 2000 lbs, but the windage on the observatory and the height made it like pulling a small camper. After I got the Astrogazer I ended up using the Exploradome as my home observatory and the Astrogazer as my portable. This whole rig, with the trailer would be probably about $4000 or so, but it does provide a real observatory and fast setup time.

The last option would be a POD. These were designed as portables but to my knowledge, nobody has actually used one for this purpose (set up and tear down) on a regular star party basis. The downside as a portable would be the assembly and small size. Transporting one is going to take an entire vehicle or trailer, then it would have to be assembled. I think the dome quarters are something like 90 lbs and that means one person would have to lift 180 lbs per dome side up onto the wall. I would think a very level surface would be required as well (where the AG's legs can be adjusted 6" and the Exploradome had a solid bottom with a center hole for the tripod). I have never seen anything published on POD setup times, but I'm guessing with two people with tools and a level surface, it would probably still take the better part of a couple of hours. A bare bones POD (no bays) and shipping is probably going to be well over $2000. I would also worry about the wear and tear on the plastic and bolt holes etc from setup and teardowns.

Overall I think the Astrogazer is the best price point for a portable observatory. It's large and roomy, easy to store, can be set up by one person. The only downside is not being able to lock it up. That's not a real issue at a regular star party, but I wouldn't leave expensive small stuff in it and run to town.

Well, hope this helps.




Jim...when time allows I appreciate seeing some detailed pictures of how Exploradome and trailer is constructed.

I think I would like to build something similar.

Thanks


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Snaproll
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3194632 - 07/02/09 08:47 AM

Well, these are the best pictures I have from this thread old thread.

Portable_Exploradome

There is another option, and that is to make an observatory out of or on a trailer. I've seen a couple of these home made setups but the issue there is to get an isolated pier.

There is also some company that makes actual observing trailers, professionally built, but the price tag is like $20K.

I think the real issue with an observatory on a trailer or as a trailer is that you're limited to observing from where you can actually drive the trailer. Often this no further than a lighted parking lot where the rest of the campers have to stay. The Exploradome that detached from the trailer was a big advantage since I could "drop it off" and get the truck and trailer out of there.

I always wanted a portable observatory for star parties and dark sites. The portable Exploradome was really oool, probably the ultimate rig. If I had a larger truck and yard space to store it, I probably would still be using it. For my uses, the Astrogazer ended up being more practical.

The pros and cons of the two:

Exploradome pros:
Solid design
Ease of setup
Lockable

Exploradome cons:
Trailering and storing
Smaller size
Setup limited to where the trailer can be driven
Cost

Astrogazer pros:
Much larger interior
Easier to transport
Easier to store
Much less expensive

Astrogazer cons:
Not lockable
Must be set up
Not as weatherproof

--------------------
-Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II

old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images


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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 702
Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Snaproll]
      #3196282 - 07/03/09 12:57 AM

Thanks for the discussion and link.

Any plans for the trailer?


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Snaproll
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3196565 - 07/03/09 07:56 AM

The trailer was just a standard tilt trailer.

You'd want one with the wide base. Remember the Exploradome is 8 feet in diameter, at the legal limit without a permit. Too narrow of a trailer would be a real thrill in a high wind or passing semi. My trailer wheel base was 6.5 feet and that worked out ok, but, the wider the better.

The second thing is to get a trailer the right length so it tilts properly. My trailer was 10 feet long. When I picked up the Exploradome in Litchfield They mounted it up, and all the weight was behind the axle. Like a negative 200 lb tongue weight, yikes! I loaded it with 250 lbs of rock salt but it was still a hairy ride out to Nebraska. I only had about a 20 lb tongue weight on the way down there. As I'g get up to speed the wind resistance on the dome on the back of the trailer would make the trailer wobble. While I was there I had about two feet of the trailer cut off the back. This moved the CG forward enough that it rode fine. When I got home I replaced the bags of rock salt with two 75 lb workout weights. I would move one to the back of the trailer and that was enough to put the trailer right at the tipping point so I could tilt the trailer bed. So basically the Exploradome was close to perfectly balanced on the trailer. the two 75 lb weights gave it about a 120 lb tongue weight and it trailered fine. I'd detatch and slide one weight down to the back of the trailer and it would cancel the weight forward and I could easily tip the trailer.

Another option I never explored that might be easier would be to have a wide trailer and just transport the Exploradome upright rather than tipping it.

On the original rig, if I was ambitious, what I would have done is have the saddle on "I" channels so that the observatory could have been slid forward or aft on the trailer then blocked for transport. This would have eliminated the counter weights as the means of changing the CG.

Just as an FYI, the Exploradome 8 foot round building weights somewhere around 450 lbs.

--------------------
-Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II

old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images


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csa/montanaModerator
Den Mother
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Snaproll]
      #3196690 - 07/03/09 09:24 AM

Jim, thanks for passing on all this information!

--------------------
Carol


AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35

DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2



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Snaproll
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #3196769 - 07/03/09 10:11 AM

No problem-o Carol.

One thing I noticed that was weird... the post numbers are not increasing? Did anybody else catch that? For everyone on the thread, their number of posts is the same.

--------------------
-Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II

old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images


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csa/montanaModerator
Den Mother
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #3196808 - 07/03/09 10:28 AM

Jim, when a new post is made; every post (past & present) by that individual will reflect the new count, rather than just the last post.

--------------------
Carol


AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35

DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2



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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus


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Posts: 702
Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: Snaproll]
      #3197061 - 07/03/09 12:59 PM

Quote:

The trailer was just a standard tilt trailer.

You'd want one with the wide base. Remember the Exploradome is 8 feet in diameter, at the legal limit without a permit. Too narrow of a trailer would be a real thrill in a high wind or passing semi. My trailer wheel base was 6.5 feet and that worked out ok, but, the wider the better.

The second thing is to get a trailer the right length so it tilts properly. My trailer was 10 feet long. When I picked up the Exploradome in Litchfield They mounted it up, and all the weight was behind the axle. Like a negative 200 lb tongue weight, yikes! I loaded it with 250 lbs of rock salt but it was still a hairy ride out to Nebraska. I only had about a 20 lb tongue weight on the way down there. As I'g get up to speed the wind resistance on the dome on the back of the trailer would make the trailer wobble. While I was there I had about two feet of the trailer cut off the back. This moved the CG forward enough that it rode fine. When I got home I replaced the bags of rock salt with two 75 lb workout weights. I would move one to the back of the trailer and that was enough to put the trailer right at the tipping point so I could tilt the trailer bed. So basically the Exploradome was close to perfectly balanced on the trailer. the two 75 lb weights gave it about a 120 lb tongue weight and it trailered fine. I'd detatch and slide one weight down to the back of the trailer and it would cancel the weight forward and I could easily tip the trailer.

Another option I never explored that might be easier would be to have a wide trailer and just transport the Exploradome upright rather than tipping it.

On the original rig, if I was ambitious, what I would have done is have the saddle on "I" channels so that the observatory could have been slid forward or aft on the trailer then blocked for transport. This would have eliminated the counter weights as the means of changing the CG.

Just as an FYI, the Exploradome 8 foot round building weights somewhere around 450 lbs.




Thanks again for the info.

Any better pictures of the saddle that was used?

I realize that it was a standard tilt trailer but the saddle seems to be where the magic is in making this portable observatory concept happen.

How it was attached tot he trailer, was it hinged, how it supported the observatory...all those details need to be known before one makes a version of it. Do you have any better pictures of the saddle or perhaps a description?

Thanks


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Snaproll
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Re: Observatories at Star Parties..options? new [Re: AlienFirstClass]
      #3197776 - 07/03/09 09:52 PM

Unfortunately no, no other pictures. What I can tell you is this...

The base was curved plate steel that was a 4' radius to cover half the observatory, with metal loops welded at the end where a heavy duty ratchet strap would go around the rest of the observatory on the bottom. there was a "lip" that was welded to the bottom curve about two inches wide and probably 4 feet long. This "lip" fit under the observatory to lift it. There was an upper curved piece similar to the bottom that had loops welded so that a rachet strap would go around the dome base. There were two handles on the dome base that the strap would go through to keep it from sliding off. Two pieces of channel stock connected the upper and lower curved pieces, welded to them. At the intersection of the channels and the upper curved piece there was a ring welded that the winch would attach to, to pull it over. The base (lower curved part and lip) was attached to the end of the trailer via heavy duty hinges with bolts. The through holes welded to the lip/curved piece and the other half of the hinge bolted to the trailer back. The trailer tipped at about a 40 degree angle and then the hinges would allow the dome to rotate upright and level. Then just slide the "lip" out from under the base.

The saddle basically looked like someone sitting with there arms and legs out in front of them in a rounded curve, like a yoga position.

There were a couple of tricks. First the dome needed to be bolted to a base of 3/4 plywood. To isolate the tripod it needs a hole cut in the center, or three holes where the legs would contact the ground directly. I always thought about doing some kind of wood plugs it could rest on, but never got around to doing it, the hole was fine. Just make sure the orientation with the tripod and north is calculated so you can put the dome down and get the mount facing north. I did it so the door faced north.

The other thing is to put some heavy duty rubber padding on the bottom so it doesn't mar up any blacktop. (Make sure the bolts for the hinges are up and not facing down so they gouge when the trailer is tilted). I also added some wood to the bottom, like 1/2" thick strip, 5" wide and about 4 feet long just in front of where the lip went. This was because if the base settled on soft ground, the dome would have to be pushed up in order to get the lip on the saddle under it. The wood strip held it up high enough so the lip was easy to put under it.

So the straps would go from the curved pieces along the base and the bottom of the dome from the loops on the curved pieces. There were two other straps to keep the dome from rotating while being moved.

The way it was set up on mine, the door was down, (against the saddle) for transport. I never got around to doing this, but I wanted to rotate the rig so the door was on the side. It was down for weather protection, but with it on the side, then the observatory could be used to transport light stuff like chairs, a tent, sleeping bags etc, (provided the hole in the floor had a cover). Actually what I did for the floor, I had a cover for it, but I also stapled and glued some plastic tarp on the bottom as a water barrier. I left it baggy so it would allow the tripod to set on the ground but still have the bottom totally enclosed from mud, bugs etc.

Hope this helps.

Dan at Exploradome build the saddle for me so he probably can give you the specs.

I LOVED the rig and like I say, would still be using it today if I had a reasonable place to store it and a larger truck to pull it.

--------------------
-Jim-
Happiness is a clear sky and a Denk II

old AP images and some new C14 Hyperstar images


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