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bbmagic
member
Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 54
Loc: 40°30 111°53
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I've been observing off and on for about 10 years now and I have never bothered keeping a checklist. I have no idea why, as I do maintain a checklist of species seen while birding...but anyway, I finally decided I needed a plan to motivate me to look for new things rather than just re-visit all my old friends. To that end, I looked into the Astronomical League observing clubs and last night I went out to get a good start on the Messier List, Urban List and Lunar I list! All told, I nabbed 10 Messier's and a double on the urban list. I also checked off 8 things on the Lunar I list. I had quite the sense of accomplishment after I got home and realized that this was the ONLY way to go!
Clear skies!
bbmagic
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XT10i (Moonlite CR2, Bob's Knobs, 2 Dovetail mounts, Flocked, EbonyStar)
Celestron FirstScope Mini-Dob
Hyperion 8mm (2") & 8-24 Zoom (2")
Agena 32mm SWA (2")
GSO 2x ED Barlow (2") & Orion Shorty (1.25")
Sirius Plossl 25mm/10mm (1.25")
Catseye Tools
Orion SkyGlow Filter (1.25") & Solar Filter (8")
Moon Filter (13%) (1.25" & 2")
Celestron GLP
Alpen 10x50 binoculars
A patient and understanding wife!
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Enig
super member
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
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I am a total beginner to actual observing, and only have a cheap set of binoculars and my eyes for that, but I do have some ideas about the approach you are speaking of.
To my mind, thinking like "I nabbed 10 Messier's /I also checked off 8 things on the..." sounds sorta like collecting for sport, which I wouldn't really understand the motivation for within the context of this "hobby" and the value that it holds.
It seems to *me* that it would be far more interesting to have a couple of particular objects that you've studied and come to understand (their distance, temperature, elemental makeup, age, how they came to be, when they were discovered, if "the ancients" had any thoughts on them... those kinds of things), and wish to spend some time with *just them*, fully "meditating into them" and experiencing them directly after having learned about them.
To my own personal way of thinking, looking at them as "checklist objects" takes away all of their actual *meaning* and worth, but I also realize that everyone is oriented differently... just thought I would share an alternative way of looking at looking!
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Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)
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Enig
super member
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
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I will add that I also do not understand the phenomenon that I witness at museums... most folks are just walking by the stuff, taking a quick glance at it and moving on without spending ANY time gathering actual data on what they are seeing, and then putting it into a context against the background of History or whatever... it's just "something to have seen" rather than something that has added to one's deeper understanding.
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Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)
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Lard Greystoke
sage
Reged: 07/27/08
Posts: 377
Loc: Ohio
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A checklist is also a way of organizing information and assisting memory. When I was starting out I enjoyed not having a plan, because absolutely everything was a discovery. After some years I found that I could not keep in my head everything that I had already seen or still needed to see, and record-keeping was a major help. I tend to agree that people can get obsessive about "knocking things off", and I would not encourage a beginner to be in too much of a hurry. But at some point looking for new objects can add interest, and as they add up some degree of organization becomes necessary.
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Lard Greystoke
10" Odyssey Compact
"With Tantor, the elephant, he made friends. How? Ask me not."
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Midnight Dan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/23/08
Posts: 2755
Loc: Brockport, NY
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Hi bbmagic:
I agree 100%! There will come a time when you will outgrow those canned lists though, and at that point you might want to look into planning software like AstroPlanner.
It comes with multiple databases of millions of objects. You can set up searches to find objects that are visible from your location when you will be observing, limited to specific object types, above a certain altitude, within limits for magnitude, size, surface brightness, etc.
You can then choose objects from that list to create a plan. It can show you the slew path through the sky so you can decide what order you want, or it can sort by transit time, or find the shortest slew path for all the objects etc. You can also use it to drive your scope if you're so inclined and your scope is computerized.
If not, you can print out the observing plan with any and all information including space for written notes. You can record your observations for each session and look back over time to see which objects you've bagged, how often you've seen them, which eyepieces, filters, etc. they were best in.
There's TONS more you can do with it, but I would bore you to death with the long list of cool features! 
You can download a free version (without the extensive databases) to try it out at:http://www.ilangainc.com/astroplanner/index.shtml
Even if you decide to buy, it's only $45 which, in my opinion, is a real bargain for what it can do. Also, it's available for Mac, Windows, and Linux.
-Dan
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Scopes: Celestron NexStar 8SE, Orion EON 72mm ED/APO, Orion ShortTube 80
Mounts: NexStar Alt/Az GoTo, Orion Astroview (EQ3) w/single axis drive
Eyepieces: Baader Hyperion 36mm (Aspheric), 21mm 13mm, 8mm, 5mm;
Other: 2x & 3x Barlow, 0.63x Focal Reducer, Dew-not strips, DewBuster controller, SQM Meter
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MrGibbly
super member
Reged: 02/07/09
Posts: 148
Loc: San Antonio, TX USA
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To each his own... Personally, I take great satisfaction from just finding some of these faint fuzzies from my back yard. That's enough a lot of the time. Other nights, I need to really study something and consider its significance, the science of it, its place in history, etc. I find that I need both to sustain my interest in the hobby.
On those cloudy nights, its the gear itself that gets me. I need something to fiddle with, clean, tweak, research online, and even to shop for!
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Zhumell Z10 10" f/4.92 Dob w/Telrad
28,16,7 and 4mm William Optics UWAN
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6575
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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I've been in this game for many a moon...BUT I now sit down at the computer in the afternoon and pick 5 or 6 "targets" of interest to me using www.tonightssky.com and "budget" at 2 hours of my time just looking at them..taking notes and recording my observations...
AFTER that 2 hours then I am set free and just goof off and look around,..revisit old friends and just relax and enjoy myself...
It is not uncommon ..especially on good evenings) to spend 6 hours in the observatory most of which is spent "goofing off"... that is the desert I am owed after I completed my homework for the night on my selected targets......
Bob G
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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izar187
sage
Reged: 09/02/06
Posts: 242
Loc: 43N
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I usually begin by goofing off for a while.
Then focus near the meridian for a while.
Followed by more goofing off before buckling up for the night(or dawn).
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4 thru 13 inch scopes.
30 years observing.
You just read this on the internet, so.....
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Jimmy2K63
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: Kentucky
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Quote:
I usually begin by goofing off for a while.
Then focus near the meridian for a while.
Followed by more goofing off before buckling up for the night(or dawn).
 All real astronomy is done within an hour on either side of the meridian isn't it. 
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http://astronomyguy63.blogspot.com/
LXD75 SN6-UHTC
Cave Astrola 10" f/5
Garrett 15x70/FarSight
Canon XS (1000D)
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bbmagic
member
Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 54
Loc: 40°30 111°53
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I guess what I meant by the whole topic is not to just "Check things off a list" but to accomplish something with it, like the Astro League Observing Clubs. In fact, the purpose of the post was to bring the Astro League clubs to the attention of the beginners. There's always countless posts of "What can I see from my light polluted backyard?" or "What globulars can I see from here?". The Astro League clubs serve this precise purpose. I'm also working on the globular cluster club which requires significant study and comparative analysis of the globulars on the list, not just a checkmark. Even the Messier club forces me to make notes and study the object in more detail than just saying, "Oh, there it is, on to the next one!". Like I said in the first post, I've been doing this for a decade. The objects I checked off my list last night have been viewed dozens of times, if not more. I've probably logged over four hours on M13 alone. The point was to have a plan in mind rather than just set up and say "Gee, what should I do?" and waste precious time behind the eyepiece. Even with birding I make notes on the behavior of the species when I check them off my life list. The only club I'm working on that is truly a checklist is Lunar I. Even that requires several sessions to complete and a good atlas or detailed map of the lunar surface.
Sorry if it sounds like a rant, I just wanted to clarify that I'm not just getting my feet wet and stumbling across the lazy man's way to casual observing.
Brandon
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XT10i (Moonlite CR2, Bob's Knobs, 2 Dovetail mounts, Flocked, EbonyStar)
Celestron FirstScope Mini-Dob
Hyperion 8mm (2") & 8-24 Zoom (2")
Agena 32mm SWA (2")
GSO 2x ED Barlow (2") & Orion Shorty (1.25")
Sirius Plossl 25mm/10mm (1.25")
Catseye Tools
Orion SkyGlow Filter (1.25") & Solar Filter (8")
Moon Filter (13%) (1.25" & 2")
Celestron GLP
Alpen 10x50 binoculars
A patient and understanding wife!
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AlanK
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
I will add that I also do not understand the phenomenon that I witness at museums... most folks are just walking by the stuff, taking a quick glance at it and moving on without spending ANY time gathering actual data on what they are seeing, and then putting it into a context against the background of History or whatever... it's just "something to have seen" rather than something that has added to one's deeper understanding.
I think people want to see as many things in the museum as they can during their visit rather than go into them deeply unless there is something of particular interest. Think, a museum has thousands of artifacts on display, spend 10 minutes on each and the whole day is gone before you even leave the first section!
Good analogy as I am one of those same people who do it on the sky - Why?, because there are tens of thousands deep sky objects and a lot of satisfaction is gained when you get to see something that very few other observers have seen - Its a bit like climbing a mountain few others have. For myself, spending a lot of time each session viewing the same objects gets very boring - but hey that's just me as a lot of observers around me at star parties spend their time doing exactly that and are enjoying every moment so it is everyone to their own - and especially for beginners that is the better way to go until they are familiar with the sky and ready to advance.
Multiple lists drive my observing sessions and they typically contain a few thousand objects and my aim is to see as much of the NGC and IC in my lifetime as possible. Having said that, I'll typically go through about 40 objects in a good nights session spending about 10-15 minutes on each one. But on the next night, it is another 40 objects and so on until the list gets used up over a few years.
For anyone new who are not familiar with what the NGC & IC catalogs are, check out here. After that and as well as, there is also the PK, PGC, UGC, Abell.. etc.,
Certainly enough to keep me going - but there is one object I do look at every night - that's the universe and that is what I spend the time with *just it*, fully "meditating into it" and experiencing it directly after having learned about it.
Talking of similar threads to this one, also have a look at this previous thread
Good luck with your observing.
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Clear skies!
18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector
Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs
Who dares - observes!
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fndNorth12
member
Reged: 04/17/09
Posts: 28
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Hello all. I like this idea of keeping a checklist. This last weekend I went out to the desert and was amazed at how many stars there were. That being said, I didn't know where to start or how to keep track. Currently I keep a journal and sketch what I saw and where/when I saw it. I think I'll add a list to be able to check off. Thanks for the ideas.
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StarmanDan
sage
Reged: 08/27/07
Posts: 391
Loc: China Spring, Texas
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I have been a rather haphazard observer myself visiting old friends at the beginning of the evening then just methodically scanning the sky like the old astronomer did, making my own "discoveries" and trying to figure out what it was I was seeing with my charts. Only until this past TSP did I do any kind of observing with a "plan" and did the entire binocular list (even though I only needed to do half the objects listed). I found it quite a joy, and a challenge, to plan my observing session, although I, too, found that I seemed to jump from object to object and didn't really study them in detail. Of course I was somewhat hurried due to the fact that bad weather was due to come in, so I may go back to them later. All told, I now see the value in a plan and I will most likely incorporate an observing plan more often in my sessions.
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"Starman" Dan Doyle
Texas Astronomical Society of Dallas
Central Texas Astronomical Society
8" LX200GPS w/ST80 guidescope, Canon 350D+DSI Pro
150mm f/8 Sky Watcher Refractor
10" f/4.5 Homemade Dob
RV-6 Criterion Dynascope
http://darcstar.wordpress.com
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Enig
super member
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
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Again, I do acknowledge that folks are oriented differently, and have potentially completely unique reasoning for observing to begin with, *but*, to *my* mind (hope nobody gets bent out of shape for someone expressing what's on their mind!),
Quote:
a lot of satisfaction is gained when you get to see something that very few other observers have seen - Its a bit like climbing a mountain few others have.
This very mindset is one of the things that keeps people from truly being able to extract the maximum value from Astronomy that there is to be had.
I think a new old paradigm should be spread to new Astronomers... that of willingly re-inventing the wheel! Crude example:
Sure, it's already been "figured out" that the Earth rotates rather than the stars spinning around us, but there is a VERY POTENT feeling to be had from really studying, noticing, and ultimately *feeling* this for ones self, throughout ones bones, molecules and atoms!
Folks should not feel that just because something has already been figured out, done, seen or whatever before, that there is no *truly deep* value in figuring it out, doing it, seeing it, or especially *feeling* it for themselves.
In my way of thinking, there is very, very little that the average amateur Astronomer can expect to be able to discover or advance in terms of seeing things that haven't been seen before... it's *almost* pointless when there are "pros" sitting in multi million / billion $ observatories with access to unbelievable amounts of data that most do not.
But what each and every amateur *can* do, is to really learn to *experience*, *witness*, *understand*, and especially *feel* the basics of The Universe for themselves in a more direct way than simply watching documentaries and reading books resulting from what "the big boys" have done (though we can certainly be *very* grateful for "the big boys" data filling in the detail for "us").
It's actually far more complicated, what I'm trying to express, than what I'm able to type out (especially given the time that I presently have), but I hope that you will see that I'm not intending a combative tone... but I very much wish to express that in *my* view, I would think Amateur Astronomy would lost by far *most* of its potential value under a sport list mentality.
That's NOT to imply that an observing plan is not good... heck, even with mine and my Son's bare eyes in the front yard I generally have some sort of planned exploration for a portion of the observation. But the *root* of what I set out to do is to more fully *feel* the full majesty of our existence within the context of The Universe that we have found ourselves to have been born into, which includes gaining even a slight degree more of a *feel* and understanding of its mechanics on the most basic level possible.
It just seems to *me*, that a "sport checklist mentality", especially *spreading* such a method to newcomers through "official organizations", could lead to missing out on opportunities to REALLY turn folks on to the true worth of Amateur Astronomy... the value that it can hold for each individual towards enhancing their own experience of themselves within this very mysterious place!
Again, just expressing what's on *my* mind, and not trying to be negative towards anyone (it's very hard to express things in text, especially in quickly whipped up internet forum posts!).
To simplify, I say do not become jaded by what's already been, because YOU weren't the one who originally did it, so it is still there for YOU to experience for yourself! Oh jeez... I am starting to think of several different ways to express this, and several things I would like to go back and accentuate... 
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Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)
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AlanK
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
Quote:
a lot of satisfaction is gained when you get to see something that very few other observers have seen - Its a bit like climbing a mountain few others have.
This very mindset is one of the things that keeps people from truly being able to extract the maximum value from Astronomy that there is to be had.
And why would that be? As long as we are all having a great night out at the eyepiece then that's what counts and whatever gives us a kick makes every night one to remember.
So what is the 'maximum value from astronomy to be had' you are referring to? I'd bet there will be a lot of different answers if that went out on some questionaire.
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Clear skies!
18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector
Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs
Who dares - observes!
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Jimmy2K63
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 1188
Loc: Kentucky
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Ok I'll pipe in and be serious this time. I've only ever been a one telescope at a time kinda guy. Right now I own 2 scopes but one is far away still, and I just got one a week ago, and some tripod mounted binocs a couple of months ago. I wonder if I have too much equipment allready - seriously.
Ever since the earliest days of my observing, I have kept a log book of my observations with the date, time, weather, seeing conditions, and objects viewed. When I was a kid, this was done in a coiled 3 hole notebook. As I grew older, the notebook filled and I designed my own form for observations, so the notebook, along with the new forms got transferred to a binder. Later came astrophotography, and so negative sleeving was added in the AP section of the binder, and careful notes were made on the forms so I could locate the images later. This binder represents the sum total of my observing time up until some 10 years ago. It has been in Canada at my parents place and next week it should be at the post office for me to pick up, along with a selection of my astronomy library.
Fast forward to 2009, when I decided I needed to get some optical assistance again a couple of months back. I went out and got a huge 3 inch thick binder (free), went on the internet and printed lots of PDF files that I had found, and sleeved in plastic to prevent moisture from ruining them, and added seperators for the sections. My binder includes a mag 7 star atlas, the Sky and Tel full star chart for the entire year, a Sky and Tel moon map, the messier catalog, a couple of different observing forums from the American Association of Amateur Astronomers, and the IFAS Binocular Certificate Handbook. I did this because I enjoy making notes of my observing times, not because I am doing any real science, but it's great for looking back and remembering those special times. It's like you are there all over again.
It's really going to be interesting to read my notes from when I was 8 years old again, and reminisce about those times and where I am at with the hobby again. I think it's great to plan using whatever tools you choose, be they online, planetarium, planisphere, atlas or whatever, to set out to view a few objects, perhaps photograph them if you wish, whatever you want to get out of the experience.
But I am not on a list of "must see" objects for the sport of merely targeting anything, or covering catalogs, or memorizing telrad charts, etc. For me the pleasure is not always around optimization and planning, but I do prefer to do any photographic work within 2 hours of the meridian either side. The true pleasure is in just getting out under the stars, and learning more about what's really out there, and keeping a diary of those travels.
My blog is also my diary of my travels, the ups and downs, a place to publish my ideas, share with others my own personal experience with this hobby. I'm not out to have the biggest telescope, the best imager, etc. I want what makes me happy, and doesn't break the bank. This is my hobby.
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http://astronomyguy63.blogspot.com/
LXD75 SN6-UHTC
Cave Astrola 10" f/5
Garrett 15x70/FarSight
Canon XS (1000D)
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AlanK
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
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Good post - very similar to the way I started out (except the astrophotography part). I also keep a log and sketch of every observation made (over 6000 since starting way back in 1985) and its great to see what I was observing on a given date.
For me, it is also a pleasure to get out under the stars as it is one of those get away from it alls from the stresses of every day life. Its everyone to their own of course but having those lists make it that more mysterious and enjoyable (for me) and some others especially those in the CN Deep sky forum - enough to make us want to spend many hours out in the dark and freezing cold.
 
Every object I see is appreciated as there is plenty of time to learn about them before and after the time at the eyepiece through books and the tremendous amount of free internet resources including CN!
I don't buy the two dimensional argument that one mindset is less than any other in amateur astronomy as everyone has different aims and things they want to see. Even the professionals with their huge telescopes are glad to have us around as the sky is a very big place and even they can't be studying every part of it all of the time and things can suddenly happen out in the cosmos at very short notice.
Here is to astronomy - 
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Clear skies!
18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector
Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs
Who dares - observes!
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Maureen
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 1599
Loc: Mid Hudson Valley
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Quote:
I don't buy the two dimensional argument that one mindset is less than any other in amateur astronomy as everyone has different aims and things they want to see. Even the professionals with their huge telescopes are glad to have us around as the sky is a very big place and even they can't be studying every part of it all of the time and things can suddenly happen out in the cosmos at very short notice.
Here is to astronomy -
Well said Alan!
Maureen
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Discovery 12.5" Truss, Orion ST 80, Coronado PST
Image Intensifier Eyepiece
27mm & 24mm Pan, 13mm & 8mm Ethos, 6mm Radian
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RussL
Music Maker
Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 1925
Loc: Cayce, SC
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It is good that it makes you happy, bbmagic. We all have our different ways of reaching that goal. I must say that I am quite different in my ways. To me, every session is communion with Great One (or whatever name one chooses), as I'm sure it is with us all in some way or another. So, no matter what I see, that conversation will take place, and it is enough for me. Just the sight of the night sky tells me all I need to know. And I am slow about it all (except when the power went off in the whole area once, lol). I often sit and look at one thing, or one area, for hours. Besides, my yard is full of trees and I have to move around to see something else anyway--yes, I am lazy.
However, I do often have an idea for the night, and certain objects to see or tasks to perform, maybe even something scientific. But that plan hangs on a string as thin as the one that I hang my motorcycle riding plans on--I never know where I'm gonna end up. I even have two notebooks, but they are sparse.
And nowadays, I have recently discovered the joys of richfield observing. Seeing views of familiar scenes at low power (say 15-48x, for me) is something I have never been able to see before, until I got a short refractor that could go that low. Now, I am like a kid again rediscovering what I have already dicovered before, only in a different dimension. Beautiful.
See how weird I am? LOL, aren't we all? And loving it!!
Clear skies to ya, pal.
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--Dawg, the Russell
"Akita mani yo." Observe everything as you walk. (--Lakota)
Celestron Celestar 8 Standard SCT, f10
Celestron 80mm Wide View ref., f5
Orion 120ST ref., f5
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope, Newt., f8, (c. 1962)
Sears Discoverer 60mm ref., f7, (c. 1973)
Celestron Ultima DX 10x50, 6.5 TFOV
Tasco 7x35 wide
Several mediocre eyepieces
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Enig
super member
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
As long as we are all having a great night out at the eyepiece then that's what counts and whatever gives us a kick makes every night one to remember.
So what is the 'maximum value from astronomy to be had' you are referring to?
To *my* mind, we as an entire species are in a state of emergency, and really should be actively seeking out ways to truly *deepen* ourselves beyond our present selfish, *shallow* ways of looking at both ourselves and The Universe. Right now it seems that most folks, through whatever medium they are using, are out for "getting a kick", and I feel that being overly focused on "getting kicks" is a significant contributor to many of our issues... we really need to mature a great deal at this point, and *fast*.
Quote:
I don't buy the two dimensional argument that one mindset is less than any other in amateur astronomy as everyone has different aims and things they want to see.
Like I've stated many times, I do understand that folks are oriented differently, I am simply giving my input on how *I* am oriented, my opinion on these topics, and that opinion partially holds that simply "nabbing" items on some checklist, sounds more like a sport than a science, and *I* think we have enough "sport" orientation in our society... *more* than enough, and that we really need to learn how to use the exploration of science as a way to truly deepen our "spiritual" understandings of ourselves and our Universe, to find a way of viewing such that could hopefully lead us into more productive views of each other as well.
Now, too, I'm also not trying to say "do away with checklists, they're no good"... I can see the value of a checklist in that it provides an organized way to learn one's way around the sky, but the list should merely be a small enhancement to one's curriculum, in my view, rather than an important focus... it seems to me that making it a "very important aspect" of a curriculum stands too much of a chance of psychologically orienting one into a more shallow, "sport" like mindset when that same time could be spent really teaching the depth of what can be had from astronomical exploration especially when tied in with other sciences for a fuller picture. For that matter, I think folks should be strongly encouraged to get both a telescope, *and* a microscope!
Anyways, again, I realize that I am presenting a view that says that another view is "lessor", but I do not mean it in a combative , "nasty" tone, just wish to share the feelings that I have when I think about the topic being discussed.
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Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)
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