AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 742
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A question...why aren't eyepieces designed to reduce their overall weight?
The weight of some eyepieces is quite excessive leading to balance issues on the scope.
And there are materials out there that could be used to reduce their weight.
So why are "obese" eyepieces still the norm?
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AZStarGuy
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/05/08
Posts: 505
Loc: Scottsdale AZ
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-------------------- Ron
SV102ABV
DSV-1 & Oberwerk
Pans,Naglers & Hyperions
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russell23
sage
Reged: 05/31/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Upstate NY
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Quote:
A question...why aren't eyepieces designed to reduce their overall weight?
The weight of some eyepieces is quite excessive leading to balance issues on the scope.
And there are materials out there that could be used to reduce their weight.
So why are "obese" eyepieces still the norm?
The eyepieces that seem to have the biggest issues with weight are typically either some of the very long FL eyepiecees (30mm and more) or the high end eyepieces from TV, Pentax, Meade. They do create balance problems and I factor that in when I'm considering a purchase.
I can't speak to the details of eyepiece design, but I think that it is safe to say that if you want to have a wide field 70 - 100 degree eyepiece with excellent edge correction you need more glass and that adds your weight.
As far as lighter weight materials, Russell-optics (no relation to myself) uses lightweight Delrin Plastic for his eyepieces. Here is a link:
http://www.russell-optics.com/2_inch_eyepieces
Gary Russell offers most of his eyepieces in a 2" format even though most of them could fit in a 1.25" housing. But they are lightweight and the Delrin has a nice feel - which I think will be great in cold weather.
There are lots of lightweight options out there. It depends upon what you are looking for in an eyepiece. If you want great edge correction in a longer FL, you're probably looking at a heavier eyepiece.
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hfjacinto
Almost got me
   
Reged: 01/12/09
Posts: 2095
Loc: Union,NJ
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Some eyepieces are very light for there size (like the Hyperion aspehrics) but if you want light eyepieces, I have 1 or 2 SUPER HIGH POWER plastic Huygenians that came with a scope I long threw out.They weigh barely anything and the small one will give you 500X.
-------------------- C9.25 ASGT 9*50 MM Finder,FT Focuser & 2" Diagonal
Meade LXD 75 6 Inch SNT w 9*50 MM Finder
5,6,9,14.5 MM Zhummel Planetary EPs
13,17,21,24,31,36 MM Baader Hyperion
6.7,8.8 MM Meade UWA & 11 MM Nagler T6
Planetary, OIII and Narrowband Filters
Thousand Oaks Dew Control w Kendrick Heaters
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FirstSight
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 3898
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Quote:
A question...why aren't eyepieces designed to reduce their overall weight?
The weight of some eyepieces is quite excessive leading to balance issues on the scope.
In part it's because there are also some other competing objectives that many people find very desirable in eyepiece designs, such as width of AFOV and creating a sense of "immersiveness, the achievement of which also as a corollary tends to increase the difficulty of fulfilling another important design objective - minimizing aberrations. In short, fulfilling any of these design factors (especially all together) tends to require wider, sometimes thicker lens elements, and more of them. It's much harder to minimize weight while achieving these design objectives than it is with simpler three-element (narrower AFOV) designs like Orthos or even Plossls (many of which aren't necessarily simple three-element designs anymore).
If Al Nagler couldn't figure out a way to make a 31T5 Nagler lighter at the time it came out, it was probably extraordinarily difficult to get a sharp, minimally aberrated 82-degree widefield in a package much lighter and smaller. But nonetheless, TeleVue must consider weight/bulk reduction to be an extremely important objective - the Ethos line is much less dense in weight/size ratio compared to The T4 or T5 Naglers. ALL five members of the Ethos family released so far weigh in at between one and one and a quarter pounds. My guess is that what's slowed TeleVue from releasing the final member of the Ethos line (somewhere between twenty and twenty-five mm focal length) isn't the feasibility of producing an optically excellent eyepiece at a suitable point within that range, but rather doing so within as desirable a limit on bulk and weight as possible.
As to cost of materials used - it isn't the bulk raw silicate glass that's the major component of cost, but rather:
a) the exotic elements added to suitably alter/improve the refractive/transmissive properties of the glass
b) the processing of the glass to obtain suitably high quality for lens-making (rather than e.g. ordinary window-pane) glass
c) the amount of grinding, polishing, coating, etc needed to make a high-performance lens element
So - I'm not sure how much cost advantage could be feasibly gained if was possible for telescope lens maker to switch to some form of polycarbonate rather than glass as the base material - its use in eyeglass lenses suggests there might be some, but OTOH telescope lenses involve additional considerations than do eyeglasses to achieve the necessary performance. The bottom line, however is that a huge component of the cost isn't simply the primary bulk of raw materials involved, but the exotic elements needed plus the processing. Maybe technological advances will change this in the future, but for now, there's good reason TeleVue and Pentax are sticking mainly to (exotic, more expensive) glasses for telescope lenses.
-------------------- Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars
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FirstSight
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 3898
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Quote:
Some eyepieces are very light for there size (like the Hyperion aspehrics) but if you want light eyepieces, I have 1 or 2 SUPER HIGH POWER plastic Huygenians that came with a scope I long threw out.They weigh barely anything and the small one will give you 500X.
Ethos eyepieces seem (and feel in the hand) fairly light for their size, especially given their extreme performance characteristics. All five Ethos focal-lengths available so far weigh in at between a pound and a pound and a quarter, with most toward the lighter figure.
None of them give me any balance problems in either of my scopes (12XTi dob, 90mm refractor), except to a very minor extent at very low altitude angles. Even when they do, either a very light touch of the hand or application of a simple half-pound adjustable counterweight (or with the dob, tightening the insta-adjust knob a small turn) takes care of the problem completely, without any significant hassle at all.
-------------------- Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars
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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 742
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Glass is glass..I understand that.
But take a look at your large heavy eyepieces..there are plenty of areas where weight could be saved.
Does anyone use carbon fiber in their eyepieces?
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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 742
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Another question...what are the lightest weight line of quality eyepieces?
And in your opinion...what are the worse offenders for the "Most Obese Eyepiece" award?
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stana
member
Reged: 05/30/09
Posts: 25
Loc: Czech republic
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Lightes eypieces? Maybe Plossl.. /Only four elements../
-------------------- Old man /43 year old/, who is Ethoi and fan clear sky../Dobson 12", E-13, E-8, Pan 19, Powermate 2x and UHC Astronomik.
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
   
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4758
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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The T6 Nagler's sure represented a phenomenal case of downsizing without sacrificing optical quality. They are tiny by comparison to their predecessors.
-------------------- My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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russell23
sage
Reged: 05/31/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Upstate NY
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Quote:
Another question...what are the lightest weight line of quality eyepieces?
And in your opinion...what are the worse offenders for the "Most Obese Eyepiece" award?
I don't think eyepiece weight is as widespread a problem as you seem to think. Many of the top end TV, Pentax, Meade wide field eyepieces are quite heavy (again varies with FL in each line) - as well as some of the lower cost 2" long FL eyepieces. Outside of those most eyepieces are quite light. What weight do you consider too heavy?
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slyke
super member
Reged: 02/21/08
Posts: 116
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If you excuse the 28mm then the UWAN line are all reasonable small for 82 deg eyepieces. -Stephen
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Brian Schmidt
sage
Reged: 01/25/09
Posts: 204
Loc: Roswell, GA
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I know it has been said, but it's worth saying again... the T6 naglers are amazingly light for the wide sharp field of view that they provide. I use 2 of them along with a 24 Pan, which is about the same weight. Very light, which worked out good for me since heavy oculars annoy me.
-------------------- Brian
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BillP
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 3948
Loc: Vienna, VA
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IMO, many are still rather heavy for marketing purposes as it conveys the perception of quality. Not to pick on TV as many do things like this, but just because I am so familiar with them, if you look at the original 4.8mm Nagler it was a little brick when you lifted it. I took mine apart and as soon as you unscrew the barrel you discover the top housing with the majority of the lenses is light as a feather. The barrel upon examination is very very heavy guage brass and where all the weight comes from. I also consider my Radians quite heave EPs for the size. Do the same thing and unscrew the barrel, again the large top housing with all the glass is super light, and looking at the barrel it has large sections of very thick chromed brass -- again where all the weight is. The 2" Pans IMO are quite heavy also, but was not brave enough to take apart my 35 Pan as too many stories of Pan elements falling out (like from the 19mm). So IMO, a lot has to do with conveying the feel of high quality...which is an important thing.
-------------------- Bill Paolini
XT10i Dob---TSA-102 S-APO---APM80/480 S-APO--- P.S.T.
TMB Supermonos---Meade UWAs---TV Panoptic---AT Titan II ED
To your own eyes be true...
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pankhi
member
Reged: 01/26/08
Posts: 92
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Harry Siebert would know the answer. His excellent eyepieces feel featherweight compared to my Hyperions. You can get Harry Siebert's phone number from his website Siebert Optics. Knowing Harry, he'll be happy to chat with you.
-------------------- Mysteries of night escape the light of day – Neil Peart, RUSH
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E_Look
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/06/08
Posts: 1208
Loc: near New York
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I don't know much about Thomas M. Back's nor Burgess Optical's other offerings, but I do have the (BO/)TMB Planetary series eyepieces and they are not heavy at all. And what heft there is makes them feel nice in the hand. Their ultimate performance may be debatable, but that they are at least slightly more than just okay eyepieces is not and they never truly throw an OTA out of balance even if you switch from the 9 mm to the 2.5 mm. They aren't all that large either, even if they are over three times the dimensions of an average standard Plössl. And like someone here said, if size and/or weight is a real issue, Plössls offer very good performance for their size and mass.
*EDIT*
I also have the 21 mm Stratus. Now THAT is a fairly big and somewhat heavy eyepiece. I did once have to be careful with how I moved my scope on its mount because of it. That Stratus is much more than double the average size and weight of a BO/TMB or TMB Planetary
-------------------- Ed
Edited by E_Look (07/02/09 11:53 AM)
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
   
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4347
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Actually all of the really good eyepieces are light weight.
The best eyepieces have four or fewer lens elements, and some even have lightweight aluminum (rather than chrome plated brass) barrels. A full set of Brandons or Meade Research Grade Orthoscopics, for example, weigh less than a single Type 5 Nagler or Pentax XW. (Oink, oink!)
I suspect the reason for porky-pieces is that most buyers would be disappointed if their $500 baby didn't have "heft". On a more serious note, it may take more metal to hold a half-score of oddly shaped, thick glass elements securely in their intended positions.
Regards,
Jim
-------------------- "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
Edited by jrbarnett (07/02/09 11:59 AM)
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2703
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The T6 Naglers represent a perfect case in point as to why some eyepieces are heavier than others, and the best two eyepieces to use for this comparison would be the 17mm T4 and the 16mm T5.
While many would say that the smaller and lighter 16mm is the result of evolution, these eyepeices are actually quite different in their characteristics.
The T4 was designed to have excellent eye relief for its focal length, and to have a very minumum of pincushion distortion.
The T6 on the other hand was designed to be smaller and lighgter, but at the EXPENSE of having slightly less eye relief and somewhat greater pincushion distortion.
That is why Televue still offeres both eyepieces even though they are very close in focal length. The T6 isn't necessarily "Better" but rather it is a bit of a tweaked compromise that sacrifices eye relief and adds field distortion, but is lighter, much more compact, and costs less.
So, a perfect example of why some eyepieces are big and heavy. The have to be for the designer to acheive his/her design requirements.
I have owned many less expensive widefield eyeices that were much lighter and much less expensive, but none have come close to the edge performance of the T4 naglers and the 31mm T5. The extra weight is worth it.
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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Eddgie
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 2703
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And on that same line of reasoning, I also owned another eyepiece that was an 82 degree AFOV in a similar focal length. 18mm Meade UWA.
I wrote a review of that eyepiece and while I was impressed with it optically, I BLASTED its packaging. It was far bulkier and heavier than it needed to be. The big ugly shroud with the cam sleeve that rasied it and lowered it added several ounces and a lot of blulk to what was otherwise and excellent eyepiece.
I tried using it with the shroud removed, which made it much more compact and several ounces lighter, but it looked home-made as a result, and I could not find a dust cap to fit it. I put the shroud back on and sold it.
What was Meade THINKING when they did that. Another difference between the 16mm and 17mm Nagler is that the T4 also includes a shroud (Instajust, which love it or hate it, does work as the designer intended and was superrior in every way to the Meade shroud).
-------------------- Celestron C14, CGE (Big Al)
Astro-Physics 6" f/8 (Buffy)
Televue 101 (No name, but I call it my Widescreen HD Space TV)
The night sky is my mistress. She seduces me away from all other lovers.
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AlienFirstClass
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/13/09
Posts: 742
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Interesting that not one post so far has listed the weight of the eyepieces they have discussed. ;<)
It reminds me of a comment I heard one night at a star party..."Does this eyepiece make my scope look fat?"
Considering that balancing a scope is a big issue, weight does matter.
Has anyone substituted a lighter weight barrel on a heavy eyepiece?
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