Cotts
Just Wondering
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 912
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
|
|
I own a number of Atlases and, as a double star fanatic I am very much interested in their usefulness with respect to these objects. I place the Millennium Star Atlas far,far above the others for these reasons:
1. The plate scale is the largest of any atlas which greatly assists star-hopping and also estimating RA and Dec.
2. The vast number of pairs indicated. Thousands of pairs.
3. The symbols used to indicate the pairs gives an approximation of the separation and a very accurate representation of the P.A. The length of the single thin line emanating from the star is proportional to separation while the line actually points in the direction of the P.A. All of the other atlases just indicate a pair with a thin line through the star.
A good night's observing would be simply to pick a page and attempt to observe all the pairs on that page. Make some notes as to RA, Dec and your anecdotal observations. The next day you can go online to the WDS and look up the data for each pair you observed the night before.. The bonus with this method is that the data in the WDS is always the most up-to-date available, rather than the static data in the lists published in books.
Of course, the Millennium Atlas is also the most expensive one out there..... I have no doubt that, in this case, you get what you pay for.
--------------------
David Cotterell
14th Floor Observatory
Richmond Hill, Ontario
200 mm Intes f/10 Mak-Cass
80mm WO Zenithstar FD
66mm WO ED
Losmandy G-11 mount with Gemini
Ioptron minitower
Canon XSi
|
PJ Anway
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 1137
Loc: Michigan's U.P.
|
|
My favorite is the Herald-Bobroff atlas. Maybe not as complete as the Millennium, but it has similar characteristics and is one volume.
--------------------
PJ
_________________
Lookum Observatory
|
Cotts
Just Wondering
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 912
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
|
|
PJ, I'd love to see one of those legendary Atlases. Long out of print, I believe...
Is the Library Bar still there in Houghton???
d.c.
--------------------
David Cotterell
14th Floor Observatory
Richmond Hill, Ontario
200 mm Intes f/10 Mak-Cass
80mm WO Zenithstar FD
66mm WO ED
Losmandy G-11 mount with Gemini
Ioptron minitower
Canon XSi
|
azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
|
|
Uranometria [both hemispheres obviously] is my go to atlas. Sure there is Millenium, but frankly, it looks like uranometria with a tad fainter stars. I'd never give mine up, and I'd nevber feel the need for another. When I need pinpoint - faint starfield location accuracy - its all online.
I simply dont see a use for anything else. Ofcourse, Ive got the book that identifies all the deepsky objects which makes this a three volume set.
Pete
--------------------
|
Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5682
Loc: Inner Solar System
|
|
Cotts,
Did you also get the Celestia 2000 disk with your MSA? It has catalog information for every star in the atlas. And the clear overlays?
They should have sold all that stuff as a set.
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
|
Cotts
Just Wondering
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 912
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
|
|
Hey, Rick. I got the overlays but no disc! I've had my Millennium for several years now. There was no offer of a disc. And now, thanks to you, I want one! 
Do you suppose this disc is for sale somewhere?
Thanks, Dave
--------------------
David Cotterell
14th Floor Observatory
Richmond Hill, Ontario
200 mm Intes f/10 Mak-Cass
80mm WO Zenithstar FD
66mm WO ED
Losmandy G-11 mount with Gemini
Ioptron minitower
Canon XSi
|
MarcF650R
member
Reged: 02/25/09
Posts: 22
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario
|
|
Hi Dave...guess who?
If ever want to give up your atlas let me know...I'm trying to find one used. Not sure why they is out of print, but I'll keep looking.
Marcky Marc from the NYAA (and the Blue Ninja)
--------------------
http://www.cleardarksky.com/c/MssssgaONkey.html?1
|
azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
|
|
Quote:
I place the Millennium Star Atlas far,far above the others for these reasons:
Well, hold on just a second. All it is, is a copied version of Uranometria with fainter stars. I mean stop your gushing. If you knew what proceded what, you wouldnt be so wow about Millenium.
Pete
--------------------
|
Cotts
Just Wondering
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 912
Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I place the Millennium Star Atlas far,far above the others for these reasons:
Well, hold on just a second. All it is, is a copied version of Uranometria with fainter stars. I mean stop your gushing. If you knew what proceded what, you wouldnt be so wow about Millenium.
Pete
Hi, Pete. Thanks for your reasoned response. I happen to have the Uranometria Atlases so I do, in fact, know what preceded what. I also have a few other Wil Tirion Atlases and am completely familiar with the progression of his marvellous work. As for the Millennium being merely a copy of the Uranometria I would say that the Mill is a complete re-thinking of the Urano from the ground up. A patient reading of the preface, foreword etc. of the Millennium will prove this. And for the notation of doublestars it is absolutely NOT a copy. Urano does not indicate separation or P.A. of double stars or the number of components if multiple like the Millennium does - it merely puts a horizontal line through stars to indicate they are not single. Hardly a copy. I will continue to gush.
Clear skies, Dave
--------------------
David Cotterell
14th Floor Observatory
Richmond Hill, Ontario
200 mm Intes f/10 Mak-Cass
80mm WO Zenithstar FD
66mm WO ED
Losmandy G-11 mount with Gemini
Ioptron minitower
Canon XSi
|
deleterman
super member
Reged: 03/13/09
Posts: 145
Loc: san diego,ca
|
|
pardon my ignorance on this subject but what is the" WDS" just starting out on double stars.would like to know all i can.I have a small meade 125 AT and an old meade 8" 1994 model that works very good the go to function works for me, thanks .del.
|
PJ Anway
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 1137
Loc: Michigan's U.P.
|
|
Del,
The WDS is the Washington Double Star catalog. Here is a link: http://ad.usno.navy.mil/wds/
It is a catalog of about 42,000 double stars or components.
--------------------
PJ
_________________
Lookum Observatory
|
Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5682
Loc: Inner Solar System
|
|
Quote:
Hey, Rick. I got the overlays but no disc! I've had my Millennium for several years now. There was no offer of a disc. And now, thanks to you, I want one!
Do you suppose this disc is for sale somewhere?
Thanks, Dave
Dave,
Sorry about the delay responding - I don't visit this forum too often.
I ordered the Celestia disk from Sky Pub as soon as I learned they weren't reprinting the original MSA. They were clearing out the overlays and the disks. They might still have some. You could also Google and probably find one.
If not, don't sweat it. It's not very user-friendly, and there are much better sources out there now. It was just sort of a set, is all.
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
|
Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5682
Loc: Inner Solar System
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I place the Millennium Star Atlas far,far above the others for these reasons:
Well, hold on just a second. All it is, is a copied version of Uranometria with fainter stars. I mean stop your gushing. If you knew what proceded what, you wouldnt be so wow about Millenium.
Pete
Spoken with all the conviction of one who has never seen an MSA.
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
|
Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5682
Loc: Inner Solar System
|
|
Since we're talking out-of-print atlases, the old Becvar 3-atlas set showed the spectral types of each component of doubles. A very, very beautiful atlas, especially the hardcover (older) edition.
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
|
azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
|
|
Spoken with all the conviction of one who has never seen an MSA.
Sorry Rick, you're quite wrong. While the stars go fainter and the scale is nice and such, the fact is the symbols in the keys for galaxies, globular clusters etc etc all looks like a glorified Uranometria. The lay out in the most profound sense is just too too close to Uranometria for me to appreciate it the way some people do. I simply no what preceded MSA and I'm not impressed.
I'm a commercial artist Rick. There are any number of avenues they could have taken to make it more of an original statement. I'll never forget my first thumbing through one.
It was jaw dropping for all the wrong reasons a product should be.
Pete
PS: Yes I know the little doodads for double star observers. Its akin to throwing hubcaps on someone elses car and calling it new. Its an uninspired "lift" of a previous product and there isnt simply enough for me to EVER make that purchase.
--------------------
Edited by azure1961p (08/07/09 03:05 AM)
|
azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
|
|
Hi, Pete. Thanks for your reasoned response. I happen to have the Uranometria Atlases so I do, in fact, know what preceded what. I also have a few other Wil Tirion Atlases and am completely familiar with the progression of his marvellous work. As for the Millennium being merely a copy of the Uranometria I would say that the Mill is a complete re-thinking of the Urano from the ground up. A patient reading of the preface, foreword etc. of the Millennium will prove this. And for the notation of doublestars it is absolutely NOT a copy. Urano does not indicate separation or P.A. of double stars or the number of components if multiple like the Millennium does - it merely puts a horizontal line through stars to indicate they are not single. Hardly a copy. I will continue to gush.
Clear skies, Dave
Dave - there are some useful things going on in MSA. I know what you mean and I'm there with you on the usefulness of the symbols on doubles and stuff. From a graphic standpoint however, the complete rethinking is merely warmed over Urano with new hubcaps, decals and headlights. A complete RETHINK is really the difference between an old Nortons and Star Atlas 2000. THATS redesigned top to bottom. Now they might have RETHOUGHT MSA top to bottom, what they came out with was recycled urano with extra bells and whistles.
From a graphic arts stand point it's the status quo. Does it have more useful information than URANOMETRIA? With out a doubt. Its served in the same manner however. And by the way, I'm aware of the standard symbols for globulars and such as well as other objects. You could argue that this is why its OK for MSA. From a commercial/graphic arts stand point its merely lame recycling with a pretty finish with the glitter of useful extras.
I shrug and dont care about MSA.
Pete
--------------------
|
azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
|
|
The other thing is I have way too much time, history and experience with Urano. It is THE book of astronomy to me.
I feel like a MAC guy cursing the PC. Anyway... enough of my droning.
Pete
--------------------
|
Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5682
Loc: Inner Solar System
|
|
Pete,
Let's keep things in order:
The U2000 first came out in 1987 in its 2-volume edition, with the pages bass-ackward in relation to each other. Everyone (including me) complained about that. But it was a milestone anyway, and I'll never get rid of mine.
The MSA came out in 1997. It had a completely different design: 3 volumes, each covering 8 degrees of RA; it was the first to print the charts side-by-side so each was a double-page chart; and it was the first to portray stars by continual gradation as opposed to binning.
The U2000 2nd ed. came out after that (I'm not sure of the year; my copy is out in the observatory). They wisely adopted the double-page format and star portrayal method initiated by the MSA. They also eliminated roughly 50,000 stars from the atlas, and dramatically increased the number of DSOs. Roger Sinnott's hand is seen in all of this, and he's done a wonderful job of standardizing symbology in various atlases.
The MSA does not have the number of DSOs the U2000 has; but that wasn't its primary purpose. It was produced from a *star* catalog, and it's titled the "Millinnium *Star* Atlas" (not DSO atlas). The DSOs are gravy. The DSO symbols used are the same as used by the U2000, and the SA2000 before that, and the Atlas Coeli before that, etc etc. Commonly accepted and recognized symbology.
In absolutely no way whatsoever is the MSA a copy of the U2000. If anything, the opposite is true. But both are fine atlases that deserve a place in every astronomer's library.
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
|
azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
|
|
Thanks for your clarification Rick. I still *heart* Urano, but I see your points made. Something glairingly obvious on both however [and I dont see why they werent taken from SKY ATLAS 2000] are black pages with white stars. Considering that whenever you go to an atlas with a red led that it'd be eye-smart to have black pages and white stars to help preserve visual dark adaption, I dont see why they didnt follow in step with SKY CAT 2000.
Thanks for your input, but I'm still bent on my Urano and ofcourse its Deepsky Field Guide. Incidentaly I supplement it with SKY CAT 2000 by Sinnot/Hirshfeld Vol. 2
Pete
--------------------
Edited by azure1961p (08/08/09 06:33 PM)
|
Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 5682
Loc: Inner Solar System
|
|
Pete,
Don't get me wrong - the U2000 is the best all-purpose atlas out there AFAIK. That's the one I keep in my observatory (along with the two Sky Cats and a Burnham's). The downside to the MSA: it's so freaking big!
One time Sky Pub sent around a questionnaire asking if anyone would be interested in a version of the MSA with black sky and color-coded stars. I responded that I would have been, before I coughed up the price of the original! That was the only time I ever heard anything about it.
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
