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caheaton
super member
Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 159
Loc: SW Ohio
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I live in the middle of an orange zone, but I make due with what I have. Despite the light pollution, I can make out the milky way on a dark night if I travel to a local park to escape the glare of porch lights. I can still pursue the Messier objects, double stars, planets, moon, etc. so I'm not missing out.
With that said, I do know what I'm missing. The best sky I ever saw was near midnight in a rural area of the Philippines (Masbate Province). Nearest "city" (of maybe 30,000 people) was a good 15 miles away and at that time of night, many people use kerosene for light. Our jeep had broken down and while it was being repaired I happened to look up...I was spell bound! I had never seen such a sky except in a planetarium! 
Now that I own my little ETX-80, I'm looking forward to bringing it with me next time I go back (my wife and I get there every 2 to 3 years to visit her family).
Craig
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Craig
Ancient Tasco 4.5" (from back when Tasco's were good)
Meade ETX-80
Orion XT10i
Meade Super Plossls 6.4, 9.7, 15 & 26mm
Meade #126 Barlow, Opt(GSO) 2.5X short barlow
Zhumell Z Planetary 3mm
Agena Ultra Wide 30mm
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I think it's important to not get too caught up in what "color" zone you're in, especially as a direct correlation to what/how much you can see. The demarcations are blurry and suspect anyway, as Mr. Flanders keeps pointing out. I've seen the horsehead nebula from the orange--can't be too bad. I think if one can see the Milky Way at all there will be plenty to observe.
I have found the "color" maps to be fairly accurate in my area. I'm close to red,orange and yellow zones. I observe fairly big differences in each zone. For each darker zone I see about 50% more and brighter stars and also more of the Milky Way. Although I haven't seen the Milky Way in the Red zone. That's probably due to porch lights and street lights. I also see a corresponding difference in DSO detail and brightness when going zone to zone. That seems accurate enough to me.  I'm not hung up on colors-just darkness. 
Don
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joelimite
sage
Reged: 09/01/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Fayetteville, AR
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After being in the hobby a year or so, I decided to determine the quality of my backyard skies. I used a magnitude chart of the stars in Ursa Minor and Lyra to determine that my limiting mag is just under 6.0. Then, I compared my results to the map at Dark Sky Finder. It turns out that I too view from an orange zone.
I have to agree with all of the comments that suggest that one can enjoy the hobby regardless of the amount of light polluting their skies. While I do occasionally visit a Blue site about 30 minutes from where I live (Devil's Den State Park), I have almost as good a time in my own backyard. Even under Orange skies, there's plenty of objects to view, be they clusters, nebulae, or galaxies.
I can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits. If I did, I'd only get out under the stars once a month and not two or three times a week like I do now. Besides, my backyard viewing sessions actually enhance my trips to a dark site, as I love seeing the difference in detail the dark skies make to objects I'm already familiar with.
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Orion XT8 Dob w/ Moonlite 2-speed Crayford focuser, Vixen A80MF w/ GSO 2-speed Crayford and Porta Mount
32mm Televue Plossl, 31mm Hyperion Aspheric, 24mm Meade SWA, 17,13,8mm Hyperions, 6,5,4mm TMB Planetary, 5mm Baader Genuine Ortho
Garrett Optical 20x80 UL Binoculars, Nikon Action Extreme 10x50 Binoculars
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40316
Loc: montana
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Quote:
can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits. If I did, I'd only get out under the stars once a month and not two or three times a week like I do now. Besides, my backyard viewing sessions actually enhance my trips to a dark site, as I love seeing the difference in detail the dark skies make to objects I'm already familiar with.
 A great outlook on viewing!
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits.
I can not imagine observing under poor to average conditions. I would much rather have a few great nights per month than a dozen ho-hum nights. There's plenty of times I've been out with poor atmospheric conditions only to find myself packing up a half hour later. Why bother? After all,I bought a telescope to "see" things. When conditions are bad, and I can't see what I want to see,why waste my time? I want quality views and because of that I have to pay the price. It's worth it as the satisfaction lasts much longer than with cheap views.
Don
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TenthEnemy
sage
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 428
Loc: Maryland
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I do 99% of my observing from the red zone, and as far as I'm concerned, I'll be long dead before I exhaust my supply of celestial objects to enjoy from this site. I say "why would I waste my time not observing if there are so many things that I can see, but haven't yet."
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Orion XT10
70mm refractor
12x50 binoculars
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Bowmoreman
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 3997
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
Quote:
I can't understand those who confine their viewing only to optimal sky conditions. While I've always subscribed to the maxim "quality over quantity," I can't imagine applying it to my viewing habits.
I can not imagine observing under poor to average conditions. I would much rather have a few great nights per month than a dozen ho-hum nights. There's plenty of times I've been out with poor atmospheric conditions only to find myself packing up a half hour later. Why bother? After all,I bought a telescope to "see" things. When conditions are bad, and I can't see what I want to see,why waste my time? I want quality views and because of that I have to pay the price. It's worth it as the satisfaction lasts much longer than with cheap views.
Don
And this, Don, is precisely why I love having my observatory, even if it is in the middle of the "Orange Zone" of Metrowest Boston (My SQMs are around 19.95 to 20.25 depending on night, time, etc... less during "moon events" of course!)...
Because even if conditions ARE "marginal" I can get in a quick "fix" with virtually no effort... 2 minutes from leaving my back door to viewing - well maybe 3!
And shutdown is even faster...
Plus, when conditions are NOT optimal, that is when my Mallincam REALLY can come into play; it nicely drills right through murk and (light) cloudiness.
For me, it's all about having the right tools for the "job at hand"...
do I wish I lived under SQM 21+ skies - oh yeah! Can I "live" with SQM 20 (+/-) yeah... Am I happy I'm not in SQM 18-19 - Yep...
View what you can, whenever you can... that's my motto... and why I sign off with
Clear ENOUGH skies
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Dave
Imaging: MI-250+ADM/SBS/Optec Libra: C11Hyperstar,TMB80SS
Visual: XT10i RTP
TV: 31T5,22T4,17T4,12T4,13Ethos,8Ethos;2x Powermate,Paracorr, 1.6X Antares, Hyperion8-24Zoom
Cameras: Mallincam Color Hyper Plus, QHY8
Guider: SBIG STV eFinder
Key Add-ons: Gerbings Heated clothes, WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO#90), Speco 9"Monitor
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
Plus, when conditions are NOT optimal, that is when my Mallincam REALLY can come into play; it nicely drills right through murk and (light) cloudiness.
For me, it's all about having the right tools for the "job at hand"...
That's cheating,you know.  An observatory would be nice, but I'd have to bulldoze about 6 houses and a dozen or so large oak trees to be able to view a reasonable amount of sky. I don't think the neighbors would like that.
Don
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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I live in a red zone, right next to a white zone. Iv been able to find alot with my new 10" telescope. But i cant see nebula like the trifid,laggoon nebula. Or M51 or the Andromeda Galaxy. Im just getting into all this astronemy stuff (altho i did have a 60mm scope for like 10 years lol) and personally this light pollution is ruining everything for me. I cant see anything but planets, and a few things like the ring nebula. I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle. I cant see saturn anymore with my eye either. I can count maybe 6 stars with the naked eye on a good night.
I wish i was still living in Arizona where the sky's were Lightblue/grey. Oh well i cant move simply because of a hobby. D.C is where all the money and jobs are at.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/11/09 02:33 AM)
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s58y
Postmaster
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 5510
Loc: Eastern NY
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Quote:
I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle. I cant see saturn anymore with my eye either. I can count maybe 6 stars with the naked eye on a good night.
LP is definitely getting bad where you live. It would be interesting to get a SQM or SQM-L reading on a nice clear, transparent night when saturn and the big dipper are invisible.
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Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis
Old camera lenses: 800mm f/5.6, 180mm f/3.4
AP900, Barndoor tracker
http://www.pbase.com/s58y
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KD5NRH
member
Reged: 06/21/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Stephenville TX
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Quote:
When I was out in Fort Davis from May 14 to June 1 this year, I had to fight the urge to just sit back and stare at the incredible Milky Way.
Two weeks? We barely stayed two nights on the way back from Carlsbad Caverns and it was enough to make me consider that area as a retirement spot. My backyard is in orange, but I have some land a few minutes out in green that seems dark to me on a good night. (Most of the easier Messier objects can be picked out naked-eye from there with a little practice.) Compared to Fort Davis, I might as well be doing my observing from downtown Las Vegas.
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
Quote:
I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle. I cant see saturn anymore with my eye either. I can count maybe 6 stars with the naked eye on a good night.
LP is definitely getting bad where you live. It would be interesting to get a SQM or SQM-L reading on a nice clear, transparent night when saturn and the big dipper are invisible.
The only stars i can see at nite, are the big ones Arcturas,Antares,Vega,Altair,Deneb. I can see the 3 star handle on the big dipper but not the bucket. Saturn i cant see either.
The only way im finding anything at night is by using a compass and looking on stellarium where the object will be. Then i use the finderscope to find bright star's with, and just hop from there using my 2" wide angle EP. Thats how i found saturn i had to point my scope in the west and just move the scope around until i found it.
I dont really go out much anymore maybe for like an hour, there is nothing else to see that i already saw on the first 2 days iv had my scope. Everything i find in the sky is just washed out completetly where all you see is black. Like M51 i found in like 20 minutes, but i couldnt see it at all not even a blotch. I'v found Globbular clusters but only the 1-3 brightest stars in them and nothing else. I'v found the ring nebula that was the onlty thing easy to see. The other nebula's im spot on but i see nothing. Basicly when im looking through the eyepeice on my telescope all i see is grey .. like this grey and stars are white
I guess another problem is my eyesight isnt what it used to be. Im only 23 years old and i recently found out my perfect 20/10 vision i had when i was 14 is now 20/40 i deff notice this when i put glass's on and look up. Things are clear and not blurry like before.
Yea it sucks here. Hopefully we have a poweroutage all night on a good night so i can go outside and check out the real sky lol.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/11/09 03:22 PM)
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: AR
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If I did not have my regular, once or twice a month trips to dark skies (75 minute drive), I would no longer be into the hobby. There are other things besides money. It's usually cheaper to live in isolated areas anyway.
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
If I did not have my regular, once or twice a month trips to dark skies (75 minute drive), I would no longer be into the hobby. There are other things besides money. It's usually cheaper to live in isolated areas anyway.
Cheaper maybe but good luck finding a decent Job that you are happy with. I'd rather make $50-80k a year and live in a nice house with my fmaily then live in a trailer park washing dish's just to see the star's.
I used to live in AZ by FT. Huachuca (the base that trains people for military intelligence) and the houses were cheap yea, we had a brand new house living in a light blue grey sky area, but there were no Job's at all. If it werent for the Military pention we couldnt live there. So we came back to VA. The econemy's just suck in small area's. I remember when i was there they had this huge mall bigger then the Pentagon Mall and there was like 20 people in it at a given time lol.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/12/09 05:16 PM)
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bigbeck
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/13/08
Posts: 582
Loc: Trenton, NJ
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Quote:
I cant even see the big dipper anymore with my naked eye just the handle.
You're lucky, going by the LP map, you have several yellow sites within an hours drive. You also have a few green zones less than 2 hours away. I have to drive 3.5 hours to hit green - but it's worth it. I don't do it often as I have a yellow zone just 50 minutes away.
I,like you, live on a red/white border about 40 miles from Philly. I can't see anything in my north and west skies up to about 60 - 70 degrees from the horizon. The south is ok but much of the sky is blocked by trees and houses and porch lights. I usually observe either at an orange zone (20 minute ride, or a yellow zone (50 minute ride). It looks like your options are:
1. Move
2. Drive to a local dark site
3. Quit astronomy
4. Suffer at your present location
Don
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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I'll probably just suffer lol. To lazy to drive 1-2 hours to look at the sky. Someone mentioned the local astronomy club here is doing some kinda sky campout or whatever its called. There going to a park in a yellow zone 1 hour from me. I dunno if thats even worth doing TBH. Iv lived in this sky so long tho i forgot what it looks like to in the other zones so maybe im just being stubborn.
I cant belive the light pollution tho is this bad here. There is nothing out here but neighborhoods. I guess it must be all the bad street lighting they put on the roads.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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I live in the middle of a red zone. For a few days around the last new moon, my family and I rented a cabin an hour away in a yellow zone. We used my 10" Newt Dob, and each of us brought binos. I had the 15x70s, my wife had 10x50s, and my daughter had 7x50s (her young eyes can take in more light from the large exit pupils of that bino). I brought a laser pointer to show them the different constellations and indicate to my wife and daughter where to point their binos to see various objects. IMHO, the skies were very good. I would be very contented if I had skies like that at my house. No problem. The Milky Way was beautiful. We could see dark lanes, knots, and dark nebulae. I think the Milky Way did dip into Ophiucus, which is supposed to be an indicator of dark skies, though I didn't think to look for that specifically while I was there. Among other things, I saw the Helix and the North America nebulae, which I had never seen before and could probably never see from my house. I also plan to visit a green/blue site that is about 1-1/2 hours from where I live.
Now, do I just give up bothering to set up my scopes in my red zone skies? No way. I'm still going to do astronomy right here in the light polluted burbs. I haven't changed my mind about that at all. That would be silly ... IMHO. I may change my focus, since now I've experienced first-hand how much easier it is to find galaxies and other low surface brightness objects under darker skies. Maybe I'll save the faint fuzzies for the dark sites. But I'll still enjoy the Moon, planets, open star clusters, many globulars and planetaries and double stars where I am. That just makes good sense. I enjoy all fields of amateur astonomy except astrophotograpy, solar and variables. Why shouldn't I make the best use of my time and my instruments wherever I am? Little smudgy galaxies and the other faint fuzzies aren't everything. Not by a long shot.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: AR
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Pensions go much farther in depressed areas that have dark skies. I am getting ready to start drawing mine next year. Moving to darker skies. Maybe wash dishes part time. 
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Cobalt5120
member
Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 45
Loc: Bremen, IN (just south of Sout...
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Quote:
You also have a few green zones less than 2 hours away.
Question: I look on a map and I see a green zone. So you drive there and then what.......?
Seriously, where would you go once you enter the "green zone"? Somebodys driveway? Stop the car on an abandoned country road? What would you be looking for in deciding where to set up for the evening?
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Larry
Visual: Orion XT10
EyePieces: Hyperion 8-24 zoom, Orion 25mm, 10 mm stock plossl's
Cameras: Canon XSI (450D)
Accessories: Sky Scout, Telrad
Realistic Dream List: Astrotrac, GEM, 80ED, Mallincam
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
Quote:
You also have a few green zones less than 2 hours away.
Question: I look on a map and I see a green zone. So you drive there and then what.......?
Seriously, where would you go once you enter the "green zone"? Somebodys driveway? Stop the car on an abandoned country road? What would you be looking for in deciding where to set up for the evening?
\
Hahah i laughed at that.. Thats a good question. What i would look for is it any public parks are in the area, then look them up on google and call asking if they have open area's for observing the sky where i could park and possibly camp out at for the night. The green Zones that are near me which hes talking about has a national park in it. If that park wasnt there i would have no idea where to go... lol
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (07/12/09 11:56 PM)
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