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RussL
Music Maker
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Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 1925
Loc: Cayce, SC
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Enig]
      #3193316 - 07/01/09 03:53 PM

I believe that observing in whatever way makes you happy is the right way.

--------------------
--Dawg, the Russell

"Akita mani yo." Observe everything as you walk. (--Lakota)


Celestron Celestar 8 Standard SCT, f10
Celestron 80mm Wide View ref., f5
Orion 120ST ref., f5
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope, Newt., f8, (c. 1962)
Sears Discoverer 60mm ref., f7, (c. 1973)
Celestron Ultima DX 10x50, 6.5 TFOV
Tasco 7x35 wide
Several mediocre eyepieces




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Maureen
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 1599
Loc: Mid Hudson Valley
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Enig]
      #3193339 - 07/01/09 04:09 PM


Quote:


Anyways, again, I realize that I am presenting a view that says that another view is "lessor", but I do not mean it in a combative , "nasty" tone, just wish
to share the feelings that I have when I think about the topic being discussed.




Your view is not at all unusual or even special. I think what gives it the "combative" tone, which I assume you are aware of, since you allude to it (?) is the "superior" tone in which it is stated.
Maureen

--------------------
Discovery 12.5" Truss, Orion ST 80, Coronado PST
Image Intensifier Eyepiece
27mm & 24mm Pan, 13mm & 8mm Ethos, 6mm Radian



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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Maureen]
      #3193369 - 07/01/09 04:26 PM

Quote:


Quote:


Anyways, again, I realize that I am presenting a view that says that another view is "lessor", but I do not mean it in a combative , "nasty" tone, just wish
to share the feelings that I have when I think about the topic being discussed.




Your view is not at all unusual or even special. I think what gives it the "combative" tone, which I assume you are aware of, since you allude to it (?) is the "superior" tone in which it is stated.
Maureen




I think you've got it in one Maureen

I rest my case....

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!


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B Rodgers
sage
*****

Reged: 01/20/09
Posts: 438
Loc: Jackson, Mo.
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Maureen]
      #3193600 - 07/01/09 06:11 PM

Quote:

Anyways, again, I realize that I am presenting a view that says that another view is "lessor", but I do not mean it in a combative , "nasty" tone, just wish
to share the feelings that I have when I think about the topic being discussed.



Your view is not at all unusual or even special. I think what gives it the "combative" tone, which I assume you are aware of, since you allude to it (?) is the "superior" tone in which it is stated.
Maureen




Maureen........well played!

--------------------
Bill

Zhumell Z8 Dob
Zhumell 8x50 finder
Telrad
EPs 30mm,9mm,25mm( Thanks JT5),GSO ED2x Barlow, Celestron 8-24mm zoom
Carol's push-to set up w/craftsman 7in digital torpedo level
20x80 binos
el cheapo Meade 60mm refractor(set the hook & reeled me in)


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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Enig]
      #3194523 - 07/02/09 06:54 AM

Quote:

I am a total beginner to actual observing, and only have a cheap set of binoculars and my eyes for that, but I do have some ideas about the approach you are speaking of.

To my mind, thinking like "I nabbed 10 Messier's /I also checked off 8 things on the..." sounds sorta like collecting for sport, which I wouldn't really understand the motivation for within the context of this "hobby" and the value that it holds.

It seems to *me* that it would be far more interesting to have a couple of particular objects that you've studied and come to understand ...




Fine! But that reinforces that original poster's underlying point rather than contradicting it. Whether you set out to check off 10 objects or to study one object in detail, you still have a plan either way.

In practice, everybody who devotes much time to this hobby ends up doing a fair amount of both -- studying objects in detail and also surveying a wide range of objects. One might even say that those are flip sides of the same coin.

Celestial objects fall into hierarchies. When you look at a galaxy in detail, you are surveying individual features inside the galaxy -- though ideally still keeping the galaxy as a whole in mind, too. And in particular, when you check off star clusters and nebulae on a list (and noting some details about each, I hope), you are studying in detail the larger object that they're part of, namely our own Milky Way galaxy. And whenever you look at any celestial object, you are studying the night sky as a whole.

Since you haven't spent much time at this hobby yet, you probably don't appreciate the true value of observing objects in quantity. For one thing, most objects that are visible in any instrument show relatively little detail in that instrument -- typically not much more than size, shape, orientation, brightness, and degree of concentration. Your binoculars will show you a hundred galaxies or so under dark skies, but most of them won't bear much more than 1 or 2 minutes of scrutiny.

For another, celestial objects are very varied. That's particularly true of the objects that binoculars show best -- open star clusters and large nebulae (both bright and dark). To really understand one particular open cluster, you have to know it in the context of open clusters as a class. And the only way to understand open clusters as a class is to view lots of them.

But getting back to the original point, the opposite of setting out with a plan is going out and observing whatever comes to mind. Everybody needs to do that, too, at least sometimes. Otherwise, you lose all spontaneity, and you may end up trapped in and narrowed by your specific goals.

The hazard of going out and observing whatever comes to mind is that all too often the same old things come to mind. And far worse, you tend to view the same old objects the same old way -- in which case you inevitably get bored sooner or later.

In stargazing as in all other things, balance is the key to satisfaction. And the proper balance varies greatly from one individual to another. And from one time to another.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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bbmagic
member


Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 54
Loc: 40°30 111°53
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3194728 - 07/02/09 10:01 AM

Tony:

That was my point exactly! My normal routine of setting up and wondering what to look at had grown stale. I found I was always looking at the same objects each season, and not pushing myself to see more of what's out there. With a list, I can plan my sessions and increase my understanding of structure, quality, intensity, etc. It has also forced me to take more careful notes so that I can go back and compare objects from night to night and year to year. Plus, I would probably never have bothered to look at some of the less well-known Messier's. So having a target list for the evening (and an overall list to track things I've seen / not seen) has literally opened up the heavens for me. I've even got some obscure things on my list for my next session and the motivation to find them has me chomping at the bit to get out and observe some more.

Brandon

--------------------

XT10i (Moonlite CR2, Bob's Knobs, 2 Dovetail mounts, Flocked, EbonyStar)
Celestron FirstScope Mini-Dob
Hyperion 8mm (2") & 8-24 Zoom (2")
Agena 32mm SWA (2")
GSO 2x ED Barlow (2") & Orion Shorty (1.25")
Sirius Plossl 25mm/10mm (1.25")
Catseye Tools
Orion SkyGlow Filter (1.25") & Solar Filter (8")
Moon Filter (13%) (1.25" & 2")
Celestron GLP
Alpen 10x50 binoculars
A patient and understanding wife!


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: bbmagic]
      #3197297 - 07/03/09 03:18 PM

Sorry folks, I don't mean to stir bad vibes around, I have a lot of frustrations and tend to judge and criticize a lot. I honestly *do* hold the views that I speak of, so cannot apologize for that, but I sure do wish I was more skilled at expressing them sometimes! I've been gone for much of the last coupla days, but have often had this thread nagging on my mind.

Quote:

most objects that are visible in any instrument show relatively little detail in that instrument -- typically not much more than size, shape, orientation, brightness, and degree of concentration. most of them won't bear much more than 1 or 2 minutes of scrutiny




This is where I would encourage an awareness towards the idea that your *best*, most *awesome* piece of Astronomy equipment is your inner human observatory, using the mind & "spirit / soul", coupled with the readily available "book knowledge" on these "objects".

If folks with what is essentially "cheap" (even if it's a thousand or more dollars!) scopes rely *only* on what they are seeing with their eyes, they will lose out *big time* on the depth of experience that's there to be had. I think we need to "train" folks to no longer be "disappointed" in the level of detail that they're able to see with their eyes of these things, but to "fill in the missing stuff on their own" sorta.

These days we're able to work in reverse, because most everything has been "found" (as far as can be with what the average "amateur" will have available", so we have the benefit of letting all of the already gathered images (deeply detailed!) and data back up what we are seeing with our eyes through the scopes!

Just like Tai Chi is considered a mostly "inner martial art", I believe that we should now be introducing Astronomy to newcomers with much more of an emphasis towards the inner experience, and it just strikes me that perpetuating checklists and "number of objects" as an emphasized method could lead folks into psychological approaches that are not good for the long haul, perhaps getting bored with it once they've "seen it all".

Given the type of orientation that I'm speaking of, it seems that one would stand a greater chance at being oriented more towards extreme excitement and deep fulfillment at being able to see *any* detail at all of these things, and would be apt to spend more and more time with *each* object, fully savoring it and allowing it to fill in not just the retina, but also the imagination and heart.

Anyways, I really am sorry for being abrasive, I'm trying my best to express things that I feel both passionately about and frustrated with, without leaving an overly acidic aftertaste... It's like an overwhelming, turbulent movement from within that's trying to escape through *way* too small of an exit!

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Enig]
      #3197354 - 07/03/09 04:07 PM

Quote:

It's like an overwhelming, turbulent movement from within that's trying to escape through *way* too small of an exit!




What you are describing here? - A vacuum cleaner that has just been put into reverse?

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!


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bbmagic
member


Reged: 09/18/08
Posts: 54
Loc: 40°30 111°53
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: AlanK]
      #3197397 - 07/03/09 04:33 PM

I was thinking of something more flatulent when I first read it!

--------------------

XT10i (Moonlite CR2, Bob's Knobs, 2 Dovetail mounts, Flocked, EbonyStar)
Celestron FirstScope Mini-Dob
Hyperion 8mm (2") & 8-24 Zoom (2")
Agena 32mm SWA (2")
GSO 2x ED Barlow (2") & Orion Shorty (1.25")
Sirius Plossl 25mm/10mm (1.25")
Catseye Tools
Orion SkyGlow Filter (1.25") & Solar Filter (8")
Moon Filter (13%) (1.25" & 2")
Celestron GLP
Alpen 10x50 binoculars
A patient and understanding wife!


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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: bbmagic]
      #3197408 - 07/03/09 04:45 PM

Quote:

I was thinking of something more flatulent when I first read it!




- Perfect 10/10!

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!


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Jimmy2K63
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 1193
Loc: Kentucky
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: AlanK]
      #3197421 - 07/03/09 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was thinking of something more flatulent when I first read it!




- Perfect 10/10!




Don't let the present tense taint the joy of the past.

Welcome to the hobby that encompasses all this stuff. Welcome to the FUTURE...that is, if we have one.

--------------------
http://astronomyguy63.blogspot.com/

LXD75 SN6-UHTC
Cave Astrola 10" f/5
Garrett 15x70/FarSight
Canon XS (1000D)


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RussL
Music Maker
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Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 1925
Loc: Cayce, SC
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #3197586 - 07/03/09 07:14 PM

Good grief, folks. Everybody's different. If you like to plan and have lists, that's great. If you like to stare at one thing all night, that's great. If you like to pop a top and just scan through the scope once in a while, that's great. No use in battering each other.

Enig--I know it's hard to convey what you feel sometimes over the internet on a keyboard. Folks can't hear the inflection as they would in your voice. I know you're just trying to tell what YOU feel, and so are we all. Sometimes it gets misinterpreted, especially since there are those who sometimes really are putting down someone else. Any of us is surely en garde for that to happen. Your tone did make it sound that way a little, but that's ok, you said you didn't mean to. No problem, in my opinion. But you also have said some things that I identify with, that being observing with the mind and heart.

Folks, I can plan and go hard at observing technically and in quantity when I feel like it. Or, like last night, I can find myself out there with a drink and smoke sitting by the scope looking for fireflies and only looking at something casually. Or, I can just scan and see what comes up. Maybe I'm thinking something, maybe not. But one thing's for sure, it's all ME, and ME only. I've been observing for 50 years, come this Christmas.

I'll be out tonight. A plan? Hm, dunno yet. Maybe, maybe not. And if it's not a good seeing night and I can't see much detail, that's ok, too--it's what has been granted to me, a gift. I like it any way it comes.

Ya'll be good.

--------------------
--Dawg, the Russell

"Akita mani yo." Observe everything as you walk. (--Lakota)


Celestron Celestar 8 Standard SCT, f10
Celestron 80mm Wide View ref., f5
Orion 120ST ref., f5
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope, Newt., f8, (c. 1962)
Sears Discoverer 60mm ref., f7, (c. 1973)
Celestron Ultima DX 10x50, 6.5 TFOV
Tasco 7x35 wide
Several mediocre eyepieces




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Maureen
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 1599
Loc: Mid Hudson Valley
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #3197602 - 07/03/09 07:37 PM

Again, what you're trying to express is very much a part of this hobby for most people. We get it, believe me. As a matter of fact, we've gotten it for a while - it may be new for you, which makes sense, since you're new to the hobby but most of us, have the capacity to see, feel and experience on the same level (or perhaps on an even deeper level) than you do. I guess I just don't get the persistent need to keep making the same point repeatedly. Surely you have some awareness that you are alienating some (many ?) folks??
Maureen

--------------------
Discovery 12.5" Truss, Orion ST 80, Coronado PST
Image Intensifier Eyepiece
27mm & 24mm Pan, 13mm & 8mm Ethos, 6mm Radian



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Maureen
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 1599
Loc: Mid Hudson Valley
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Maureen]
      #3197752 - 07/03/09 09:34 PM

I would like to apologize for my previous post. I feel I have crossed the line. This thread is turning into something not nice and I have contributed to it. I am sorry. Perhaps the mods should consider locking it.
Maureen

--------------------
Discovery 12.5" Truss, Orion ST 80, Coronado PST
Image Intensifier Eyepiece
27mm & 24mm Pan, 13mm & 8mm Ethos, 6mm Radian



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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Maureen]
      #3197766 - 07/03/09 09:42 PM

Hi Maureen, I don't think you have anything to apologize about as what you previously said was correct. However, I agree the thread has ran its course and should be put down out of its misery

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!


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DizzyGazer
member
*****

Reged: 01/14/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Concrete, WA. USA
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: RussL]
      #3197919 - 07/04/09 12:17 AM

Quote:

Good grief, folks. Everybody's different. If you like to plan and have lists, that's great. If you like to stare at one thing all night, that's great. If you like to pop a top and just scan through the scope once in a while, that's great. No use in battering each other.




What he said! Right on the mark, Dawg!

If I had to follow a "plan" when I went out I likely wouldn't last long in the hobby. Rarely do I take any charts out, but I will take my laptop with Stellarium once in a while if I'm observing away from home and want it to help me locate a few objects.

Wednesday night I headed up to my favorite viewing spot (dark skies on a mountain top at 4'400 ft.) and was able to find 11 new (to me) Messier objects in about 3 hrs. Most of those were found by just pointing my 102mm ED up in the direction of where I thought the objects were, and then just poked around using the 24mm Stratus (gives me 29x). I did have to use Stellarium a bit as well as a list of the Messier objects by Constellation, as I wanted to find M51 and needed a bit of direction there. Found it after a few minutes of searching (this time..LOL). I had spent over 2 hrs. (cumulative) in the past hunting for it and Wed. finally brought success. BTW, I was alone on that mountain top, and I'm sure every bear, deer and cougar for a mile around heard me whoopping and hollering over the find..

To end the night I grabbed a cup of coffee, sat back on the tailgate of my truck and just gazed at it all with the bino's, and naked eye. By 0100 the Moon was gone, and the Milky Way was ever brightening in it's arc that is born from Sag....it was a sight to behold, for sure.

As Russ said...we're all different, and while for some the science brings the excitement (which is cool too!), for others it just gazing at the heavens above and seeing whatever it is we can find that holds our interest.

Mis Dos Centavos...;)

Mike

--------------------
Astro-Tech AT102ED
Orion Sirius EQ-G
Edge-On and Stratus EP's

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." Calvin Coolidge


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: RussL]
      #3197961 - 07/04/09 01:16 AM

Quote:

Everybody's different. If you like to plan and have lists, that's great. If you like to stare at one thing all night, that's great. If you like to pop a top and just scan through the scope once in a while, that's great. No use in battering each other.




This I agree with on an individual level, no problem. The thing that got me worried is the (perhaps incorrect) impression that the originally mentioned organization has checklists as some sort of immediately put forth "curriculum / approach" that is handed out to new folks who are coming to them with an initial spark of curiosity, and it just sorta "scares" me that this could be what "fresh meat" is presented with, some maybe never knowing how much more to it that there can be (as some folks do not know how to go beyond what they are directly shown / taught).

I'm in no way saying that the individual cannot do things on their own as they wish, I'm just hoping that a high visibly public organization is offering up the most potent "curriculum" possible, because they have a *lot* of influence over how well and worthwhilely the hobby gets spread into the "general populous".



--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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DizzyGazer
member
*****

Reged: 01/14/09
Posts: 40
Loc: Concrete, WA. USA
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Enig]
      #3197985 - 07/04/09 01:45 AM

Hi Enig,

Interesting thoughts. Never thought about having an established beginner curriculum. In my case I've done a bit of public stuff, mostly when I'm out and folks just happen by. I always try to ask them a few questions and find out what their interest might be, and then use that as a basis for any objects I might show them, or the information I might impart to them. Piquing their individual interests lets them know that astronomy has something for everyone, be it the mathematics, geology of different stars, or just poking around and finding cool stuff to look at, no matter it's designation in some catalog.

Maureen: IMO, not a thing wrong with expressing your concerns, and there is much wisdom in your words. You have a great deal of tact, and it's very clear (at least to me) that you are quite sensitive to others feelings. I think your post was worthwhile and helped contribute positively to the overall thread. We're all big kids here, and sometimes a "poke-in-the-ribs" gets us to thinking better.

Mike

--------------------
Astro-Tech AT102ED
Orion Sirius EQ-G
Edge-On and Stratus EP's

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education alone will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." Calvin Coolidge

Edited by DizzyGazer (07/04/09 01:47 AM)


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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: Enig]
      #3198031 - 07/04/09 02:59 AM

Quote:


The thing that got me worried is the (perhaps incorrect) impression that the originally mentioned organization has checklists as some sort of immediately put forth "curriculum / approach" that is handed out to new folks who are coming to them with an initial spark of curiosity, and it just sorta "scares" me that this could be what "fresh meat" is presented with, some maybe never knowing how much more to it that there can be (as some folks do not know how to go beyond what they are directly shown / taught).







Not at all Enig - I don't believe that's what the original poster or myself intended. Its entirely up to the individual new or advanced which methods they use and we are not impressing anything upon them - only suggesting some of the options available that already work for us. On the other hand, I don't believe that any method or mindset adopted by someone else is inferior to another but that is my way.

You made up good on your last post which is appreciated and yes, after nearly 25 years I'm still observing with the mind and heart even with that checklist as all of those faint little fuzzies carry a lot more meaning under the surface than what lands on the retina. A good example is that faint little quasar - boring to look at but the light started traversing space before our solar system formed - incredible. Then there is the massive black hole in the center - one of the most powerful monsters in the universe! Okay, getting carried away now ....

Sorry about the crude little joke I made earlier but I was just trying to bring some humor into to the thread. The last sentence you wrote was very funny and brightened up my morning making my other half laugh as well

Anyway, time to move forward now - so please make yourself at home and feel free to ask questions as there will always be someone with the answer.

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!


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Maureen
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 04/27/05
Posts: 1599
Loc: Mid Hudson Valley
Re: Observing is more fun with a plan in mind! new [Re: AlanK]
      #3198455 - 07/04/09 11:15 AM

Great to see how folks with good intentions and good hearts can work things out. Now if we could only teach this to world leaders.... Wait a minute - what am I saying - then World Peace would break out and all those cable news networks would be out of business!
Maureen

--------------------
Discovery 12.5" Truss, Orion ST 80, Coronado PST
Image Intensifier Eyepiece
27mm & 24mm Pan, 13mm & 8mm Ethos, 6mm Radian



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