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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Unidentified Nebulositity!
      #3239853 - 07/26/09 05:21 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

I'm hoping that some of yall will know what I saw the other night...

I've not yet come to understand how to locate specific objects or find where I'm looking... I'm brand new to it all and am three days into using our new scope. I was simply star grazing around in the general area of Sagittarius, at about 1:30am or so (location is 34N 85W, in NW GA) and saw this:

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3239857 - 07/26/09 05:23 PM

It is a very crude Photoshopping, showing the prominent stars that were immediately surrounding whatever it was (represented by the smudge), and this is how it appeared in my reflector scope. I would *love* to look this "object" up and learn about what I have witnessed!

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Jim Curry
sage


Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 432
Loc: Maine
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3240015 - 07/26/09 06:42 PM

Well, there's probably about 100 objects in the Sag. area that would look like that. Sounds like someone needs a star chart for a little navigation :>)

Jim

--------------------
Vixen 140 refractor


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #3240044 - 07/26/09 06:57 PM

Well, one thing that gets me confused, I use some simple star charts, and Stellarium, but those things tend to be very simplified, showing only the brightest stars, and I don't ever know how deeply of a "zoomed in" area I'm seeing through the scope in comparison to what I would see on a chart. Also, it's still a little confusing to me to compare the upside down reflector image with what is actually being seen. I'm a total fresh newb with a *lot* of grasping to do!

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #3240146 - 07/26/09 08:00 PM

That'll be hard to identify given the richness of the sagittarius area - contains around 20 or so messiers from what I remember. Then there are a whole host of other nebulae, globulars and unresolved star clusters.

Was the object evenly lit and were there any stars in it?

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: AlanK]
      #3240154 - 07/26/09 08:07 PM

It was evidently *filled* with stars... but I am *totally* fresh on nebulosity and can't tell what "kind" it was or anything. I just randomly found it, then moved my scope a little to the left and saw roughly the star figure you see on the upper left of my drawing, then back to the nebulosity, then slightly down to the right where I saw the "rectangular box". Neither of those were visible while actually viewing the nebulosity, I just looked immediately around it to find a way to try to recognize it later. I sorta just assumed that probably someone here was so familiar with it that it felt like home to them and they would immediately recognize the two star patterns around it!

EDIT: I would not say "evenly lit", but it's no longer fresh enough in my mind to say definitively... I just recall it being a good sized cluster and gas looking thing!

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)

Edited by Enig (07/26/09 08:09 PM)


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AlanK
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3240169 - 07/26/09 08:20 PM

You saw M22
Click anywhere on that image (which is approx upside down to the way you saw it) to see the wide field and you'll see a group of bright stars that very closely resemble the ones in your sketch.
Thats one of the finest globular clusters in the entire sky rivaling M13 in Hercules and is at a distance of 10,400 light years.

The 'haze' you saw was from the hundreds of thousands of unresolved stars in the cluster.

Well done on the observation!

--------------------
Clear skies!

18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector

Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,276 deep sky objects incl 4,670 ngcs

Who dares - observes!

Edited by AlanK (07/26/09 08:23 PM)


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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
*****

Reged: 09/19/08
Posts: 945
Loc: Utah
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3240186 - 07/26/09 08:31 PM

Enig,

Best advice . . . keep viewing. You'll grow a lot over the next year as you increase your viewing, using equipment and charts. My advice, get the S&T Pocket Atlas and learn to look pass all those stars. If needed, look in your finder and then in your eyepiece. I think for most newbies using a Dob and the upside down view takes awhile to get use to.

Most of the faint fuzzy items you'll see are located on Telrad charts and you can use them to get the gist where most items are at. In the Equipment Forum is a thread called Carol's picks and you can find Telrad charts there.

Here are some that you can use online or download and print:

Messier Online to Print

Messier Telrad Online for Download

This one has a donation for printing it or you can download and use them on your computer but is really good to. Best of the NGC gives some good sites to see.

Best of the NGC

Until you get S&T Pocket Atlas these will have to do. Good luck.

Edit: I forgot this by a new member (Phred) in the beginners thread and I thought his finder charts aren't bad:


Free Finder Charts

--------------------
Jay in Utah
---------------------------
Location: Lat: 40.514N Long: -112.032W

Mortal as I am, I know that I am born for a day. But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the earth.
— Ptolemy, c.150 AD



My Blog

Edited by JayinUT (07/26/09 08:52 PM)


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: AlanK]
      #3240187 - 07/26/09 08:31 PM

YES YES!!! That is indeed what I saw! *Very* much appreciated, Alan!!!

Too, that image shows part of my difficulty... it shows *so* many more stars than I was actually seeing through the scope, and so does Stellarium, which makes it very difficult for me to find my way around and identify things.

Is there some sort of "magnitude" settings or parameters I could change to make programs like Starry Night Backyard and Stellarium match up better with what I'm actually able to see "real world"? Also, notice that neither of the two most prominently seeable patterns show up in the star charts available at SkyCharts.com... so how does one find orientation between these sorts of resources and the actual sky?

Again, thank you, thank you, *thank you*!!!

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: JayinUT]
      #3240200 - 07/26/09 08:40 PM

*Very* much appreciated Jay!

I just noticed that at the right amount of zoom, Stellarium does indeed show the patterns that I saw... this will help me to get some degree of specific correlation between zoom level, and real world seeing that I was *badly* needing.

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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reiner
super member


Reged: 09/28/05
Posts: 100
Loc: Freiburg, Germany
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3240620 - 07/27/09 02:44 AM

If you observe M22 again, increase the magnification. Your 8" is able to resolve this globular cluster partially into single stars.

--------------------
Reiner

22" and 14" Dobs on EQ platforms


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Jim Curry
sage


Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 432
Loc: Maine
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: reiner]
      #3240750 - 07/27/09 07:09 AM

Enig: You might try Halo Northern Sky also. You can vary the brightness of the stars and the field. It's a free download.
Jim

--------------------
Vixen 140 refractor


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5025
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3241153 - 07/27/09 12:24 PM

There's a good many planetary nebulae in Sagittarius that look like that. However, most of the ones I know are very small and need something like 200X to make out from the surrounding stars. There's also many globular clusters that look like round, fuzzy nebulae because the stars are too faint to resolve because of severe obscuration by interstellar dust or being at a great distance from Earth. From your comments, I would say you've spotted M-22, which will break up easily into stars with an 8-inch with higher magnification, darker skies or both. It is also flanked by several other globular clusters such as M-28, NGC-6638 and NGC-6642 that are much farther away than M-22 is, and that globular cluster is almost 10,000 light years away in the direction of the center of the Milky Way. Next time you return to Sagittarius, take along a copy of Sky & Telescope's Pocket Sky Atlas, which has a lot of objects plotted in it that are easy to locate with an 8-inch telescope. You will want to take a look at M-8, M-20 and M-17. Then you can look at the dozens of other brighter open clusters, globular clusters and planetary nebulae scattered all over Sagittarius.

Taras

--------------------
15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats


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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Achernar]
      #3241182 - 07/27/09 12:44 PM

I would definitely have to agree that you've more then likely came across M22. It's one of the finest globular clusters in the sky. As others have mentioned ( Taras), take along one of the Sky and Telescope's Pocket Sky Atlas and take a tour all through that Sagitarrius region. You will come across all sorts of goodies that will keep you occupied and excited all night!

Keep us updated on your ventures, we'd love to hear about them. Clear Skies to All!

--------------------
Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow




Local Site


Clear Skies?


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Tim L
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/17/08
Posts: 563
Loc: Austin, TX
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #3241187 - 07/27/09 12:48 PM

Hey guys,
Okay, I've just got to start with two things: Enig, great sketch! and to AlanK, very impressive detective work!

Enig, I'm in a similar boat as you. I have a Z10, and limited equipment. No telrad, but I've learned how to starhop very effectively with the finderscope (I think it's the same model that comes with the Z8).

I HIGHLY recommend the Sky and Telescope Pocket Sky Atlas mentioned above. It's one of the first "accessory" purchases I made, and it has made all the difference for me. Here's how it could help you in your specific situation...

1. While skymaps.com has great maps of the whole sky (and a good list of target items!) the PSA has more stars plotted (each page is of a small area of sky), which will help you zero in on your target as you go from star to star.

2. The PSA has a helpful "ruler" showing the degree scale of the charts. You can point your finderscope at a region with bright stars (like the "teapot" in Sagittarius), compare your view with the scale in the PSA, and determine your field of view. (Your finderscope should be about 5 degrees or a bit larger).

3. The PSA plots stars down to about what you can see in your finderscope. So, the maps are very helpful for low-power starhopping. You'll see many more stars in the eyepiece, but this is an excellent way to get to your target. It's not "cluttered" with stars you can't see anyway. In your sketch above, the grouping of stars on the left is in PSA, and 3 of the 4 stars in the box shape on the right are in the atlas also.

4. You can make yourself a little wire ring that represents your field of view to scale and lay it on the chart. As you push the ring from star to star on the paper, you'll be able to predict exactly what will show up in the finder. Just take a piece of wire and wrap it around the right-sized socket from a wrench set, and you've got a perfect circle representing 5 degrees!

5. The PSA is filled with more than enough objects to view. From M22, you might then say, "Hey, maybe I can see M54, M70, M69, M8, M7, M6, ...." They're all nearby!

6. It's small, spiral bound, sturdy, and organized well. I know there's a use for more detailed atlases, but this one is great for someone working at our level!

7. It's the same view you'll see in your finderscope--not inverted like in the eyepiece.

The cost is about $20, but you can probably find it cheaper if you look around. It is well worth the money. Just think--hundreds (thousands?) of dollars worth of enjoyment for just a fraction of that price!

Think of it this way--you could see a lot of neat things by just wandering around Paris. But if you purchase the tourist map, you'll know what they are, and you'll be able to find things on the next block you'd have otherwise missed!

Sorry the post is so long, but I've enjoyed my PSA so much, I just wanted to pass along the blessing to someone else.



--------------------
Tim

Zhumell Z10 dob
Meade 60mm refractor
Zhumell 1.25" eyepiece and filter kit
Zhumell sky-glow, UHC, and OIII filters


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Enig
super member


Reged: 06/24/09
Posts: 160
Loc: NW GA, U.S.A.
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Tim L]
      #3243830 - 07/28/09 09:29 PM

Quote:

I HIGHLY recommend the Sky and Telescope Pocket Sky Atlas mentioned above.




I *very* much appreciate your posting, as it has indeed put me over the edge of realizing that that particular book will be a must have! Unfortunately, it's going to be just a bit of a wait for us, so we're doing our best with the tools that we have.

I went out night before last and found it again... it was the first object (well, aside from the effortless Jupiter!) that I have been able to locate intentionally! There were some clouds towards that direction with light pollution reflecting off of them, so it wasn't as clear, but it was *definitely* the same thing, and felt like a significant accomplishment. I will *never* forget though, the feeling I had when I just randomly discovered it without having any idea what would be there, or what it was (outside of being a cluster of some kind).

Thanks, all of yall, a *ton* for your input / insight... I *very* much appreciate it.

--------------------
Nekkid Eyes!
12x50 Binoculars
8" Newtonian / Dobsonian Telescope (Stock Zhumell Z8)


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veebs2
special label
*****

Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 287
Loc: DeKalb, IL
Re: Unidentified Nebulositity! new [Re: Enig]
      #3247161 - 07/30/09 04:48 PM

That feeling of discovering an object for the first time does not go away. I have been at this a little over 2 years and still get excited when I find that new object I am looking for!! Some of my best discoveries were simply panning the sky and having things pop into my field of view...this is how I first found the double cluster and M27. Very fun!!

--------------------
Paul

Zhumell 10" (My Mistress - name given by my wife)
Hyperions - 5mm, 13mm and 24mm
Stratus - 8mm and 17mm
Howie Glatter 2"-1 1/4" Holograpic w/ Barlow
Lumicon OIII Filter
Telrad

DeKalb, IL


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