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nickmx50
member
Reged: 06/25/09
Posts: 31
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My friend and I are in search of M51. We have been unable to find it our last 3 times out. We have been using his 10" X-Class Dob. His eyepieces include a 30mm 2" GSO, 15mm GSO, and 8mm Stratus. The conditions were good, completely clear, 4/5 seeing, and very good transparency, according to clear dark sky. That night I was able to see andromeda with my 4.5" relfector very well. We bring a laptop top running starry night to help us find objects. Both of us have centered the scope on Alkaid then hopped down and over from there with no luck. We have been using mainly the 30mm for searching. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
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Orion 4.5" Skyview reflector
Tele Vue 9mm/T6
Meade 4000 14mm UWA
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Bill Weir
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 1364
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Look at this map from Uranometria and notice the little triange of equal brightness stars that M51 is just to the SW of. http://astrosurf.com/jwisn/m51-map.jpg
Using the finder scope or even binoculars track down that. They are reasonably bright stars in a finder and the triange is quite noticable. If your sky is reasonably dark you should also notice M51.
Good luck, but I suggest waiting until the Moon is gone.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar ED II
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2009, 102.
So far in 2010, 17.
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jack45
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/07/03
Posts: 2577
Loc: Lacey WA
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Here's the one web site I use the most. Read the bottom caption and go from there.
http://www.astrosurf.com/jwisn/cvenatici.htm
Clear Skies!
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16"f/4.5 Discovery Split Tube/TV Paracorr
12.5"f/5 Discovery PDHQ/TV 2x Barlow/Filters
Orion f/4.9 XT12"Intelliscope
BV's/Bugress Model 24/Stellarvue Model BV3A
TV Smooth Side Plossls,7.4mm,10.5mm,13mm,17mm,21mm,26mm,all NJs
Nagler EPs 9mm T/1,13mm T/1,16mm T/2,20mm T/2,26mm T/5,24mm,28mm Meade SWA,40mm 5000s Plossl
Axiom EPs 23mm,31mm LX
Zhumell Planetary 9mm,12.5mm,14.5mm,18mm
UO EPs 5MM,6MM,7MM,12.5MM
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nickmx50
member
Reged: 06/25/09
Posts: 31
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Should we be able to see it with the 30mm? About 40x mag? 2 of 3 times we looked there was a pretty decent sized moon, but we waited for it to go below the horizon. We really seem to looking in the right area according to your charts and our starry night.
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Orion 4.5" Skyview reflector
Tele Vue 9mm/T6
Meade 4000 14mm UWA
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jack45
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/07/03
Posts: 2577
Loc: Lacey WA
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I used my 12" scope and is was a little hard to find (26mm TV smooth side plossl). Is the Moon for sure that's killing your chance of seeing it. Still I do think you can view but you just have to find it first. Try a little more mag, around a 20mm or so should help. Your 15mm should do it!
Clear Skies!
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16"f/4.5 Discovery Split Tube/TV Paracorr
12.5"f/5 Discovery PDHQ/TV 2x Barlow/Filters
Orion f/4.9 XT12"Intelliscope
BV's/Bugress Model 24/Stellarvue Model BV3A
TV Smooth Side Plossls,7.4mm,10.5mm,13mm,17mm,21mm,26mm,all NJs
Nagler EPs 9mm T/1,13mm T/1,16mm T/2,20mm T/2,26mm T/5,24mm,28mm Meade SWA,40mm 5000s Plossl
Axiom EPs 23mm,31mm LX
Zhumell Planetary 9mm,12.5mm,14.5mm,18mm
UO EPs 5MM,6MM,7MM,12.5MM
Edited by jack45 (08/02/09 06:54 PM)
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AlanK
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/26/07
Posts: 523
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
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Yes although it would be rather small - Both M51 and its companions nuclei would be visible as fuzzy nearly stellar spots surrounded by a larger, fainter round glow.
Under dark skies there may be a hint of spiral structure within the outer glow.
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Clear skies!
18 inch f4.5 Obsession #1637
12 inch f5.4 reflector
Just another frozen astronomer
Kumeu Observatory
Auckland NZ
7,379 deep sky objects incl 4,724 ngcs
Who dares - observes!
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Ray4852
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
Posts: 550
Loc: Arcade, NY
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If you can afford an Argo Navis or sky commander, pick one up. M51 can be a tough galaxy to spot if you don't have dark skies.
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Home Built 18 dobsonian
Panoptic 27mm
Tele vue 16mm 9mm naglers
Tele vue big barlow
Telrad and DSC
deepsky and skytools software
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Bill Weir
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 1364
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Your CSC is for Portland so this leads me to the question of how far into the light pollution are you? This is a difficult galaxy pair under light pollution. Like I said, from a reasonably dark location (with no Moon)it is an easy object with even 10X50 binoculars.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar ED II
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2009, 102.
So far in 2010, 17.
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scopethis
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/30/08
Posts: 826
Loc: Kingman, Ks
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From my dark country observing site, M51 in Ursa Major is visible in an 80mm finder. Using a 10" SCT and very low power (45x), the galaxy appears as a fairly large round cloud that brightens at center with an adjacent small irregular shape dim cloud. Thus said, your equipment is capable, but what about your seeing (darkness) conditions?
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nickmx50
member
Reged: 06/25/09
Posts: 31
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Quote:
Your CSC is for Portland so this leads me to the question of how far into the light pollution are you? This is a difficult galaxy pair under light pollution. Like I said, from a reasonably dark location (with no Moon)it is an easy object with even 10X50 binoculars.
Bill
Our viewing site is about 24 miles from portland and is used by our local astronomy club. At the star parties I've seen a lot of nice DSO's from other telescopes. Some pretty faint nebulas that are supposed to be harder to see than M51. I think I'll wait till the new moon and try again.
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Orion 4.5" Skyview reflector
Tele Vue 9mm/T6
Meade 4000 14mm UWA
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 18665
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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Wait for the moon to get out of the way.
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Ted
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jack45
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/07/03
Posts: 2577
Loc: Lacey WA
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I agree with the above, wait until the Moon goes away.
Clear Skies!
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16"f/4.5 Discovery Split Tube/TV Paracorr
12.5"f/5 Discovery PDHQ/TV 2x Barlow/Filters
Orion f/4.9 XT12"Intelliscope
BV's/Bugress Model 24/Stellarvue Model BV3A
TV Smooth Side Plossls,7.4mm,10.5mm,13mm,17mm,21mm,26mm,all NJs
Nagler EPs 9mm T/1,13mm T/1,16mm T/2,20mm T/2,26mm T/5,24mm,28mm Meade SWA,40mm 5000s Plossl
Axiom EPs 23mm,31mm LX
Zhumell Planetary 9mm,12.5mm,14.5mm,18mm
UO EPs 5MM,6MM,7MM,12.5MM
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kroum
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/28/08
Posts: 761
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
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Definitely wait for the moon to go away, also and I think this is a bigger deal than you realize, don't use a laptop, it will ruin your night vision, even with the "night vision mode" in starry night, the screen backlight still throws out white light, and it messes up your night vision enough to make galaxies not worth looking at with a 10 inch.
Lastly: It is probably much smaller than your realize. If you are used to looking at andromeda, it will seem like the ring compared to it, aka MUCH smaller. It should be visible in the 30mm eyepiece, but it will be very small. I would use the 15mm GSO after you get close with the 30mm. It will look like two small fuzzies next to each other, one is about twice the size of the other.
With my 10 inch I observed it 2 weeks ago at an orange site (though there were low clouds over the light polluted area), and I observed like I said, two roughly circular spots next to each other, with faint whisps around the larger one, and a brightening between the two. The whisps didn't show the spiral structure of the galaxy, but if you just let your eye relax and not try to look at anything in particular, you do get an impression of it being spiral in nature. Of course the moment you decide to look at the spiral structure, it goes back to being faint whisps.
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10in Hardin Optical Dob
100mm f6 Orion Achromat
6in Orion Short Tube Reflector
15X70 Barska Binoculars
32mm Astrola, 32mm Celestron Erfle
25mm, 12.5mm Sterling Plossls
9.4mm Speers Waler
7.5mm Orion Ultrascopic
Ultima 2X shorty barlow
Orion 2x shorty barlow
Antares 1.6x barlow
Turn on, tune in, and look through the eyepiece.
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 168
Loc: Virginia
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double post sorry
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (08/04/09 09:37 PM)
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candymancan
super member
Reged: 07/10/09
Posts: 168
Loc: Virginia
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I could barely, and let me say this again barely see M51 with my 10" altho i have in red sky's i dont know what you are in. Also the moon will 100% ruin it for you . Unfortunatly at least in my time zone. The moon is up until like 3AM and by that time m51 and the big dipper are gone. So the best time to look for M51 right now is between 8 and 10pm on the East Coast. The moon isnt up in the sky at that time
Its really easy to find the spot where its suppose to be, just find alkaid when is the easy part like you did, then move the scope down and you should see another bright star which is called 24 CVN. Now the important part, move the scope to the left a little and move it down. You should be able to 3 bright stars forming a triangle called Hip 66004/ Hip 65768 and HIP 66116.
Once you find those 3 stars M51 will be directly under HIP 66004 which should be the star on the left of the triangle. If you see that star and look under it and all you see is empty space then that is where M51 is. You can also move to the left and down a little under that 3rd star in the triangle and you should see a red star. If you see that then you are in the right spot M51 is to the right of the red star
You might have to keep the scope and your eye on that spot for 10 minutes. Try moving the scope a tiny fraction in diff directions. Basicly making it wiggle almost, i found when you wiggle it your eye's can catch the faint objects you didnt know were there. Once you see you'll know what to look for from then on.
For me i saw both of the brigh centers for m51 and the other galaxy (is it a galaxy ? next to m51) however i couldnt make out anything else. All i saw was the center's of those 2 objects and they were very very faint looking almost unseeable.
I hope this helps.. also you cant compare this to andromeda. Adromeda is really bright when i first saw it iwas like wow.. M51 is really hard to see compared to m51. Its like looking at a bird on a branch during the day, then trying to find that bird again at night.
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Nikon 10x50 Action Binoculars
Zhumell Z10 10" Dobsonian
Tasco 60mm Refractor
Edited by candymancan (08/04/09 09:41 PM)
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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
Reged: 09/19/08
Posts: 1312
Loc: Utah
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Also, look at what time in the night your going for this. The lower it drops to the horizon, the more muck your going to look through and that will impact seeing M51. Wait for the new moon and probably earlier in the night when M51 is a little bit higher in the sky.
Also, I know in Starry Night Pro (not sure on the other versions) you can print out a specific chart for a specific time and location. Do that and keep your eyes dark adapted as mentioned. Also adjust the map to meet what your seeing in the EP. Good luck, you'll get it.
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Jay in Utah
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Historian Donald Osterbrock called him (Edward Barnard) an "observe-aholic," because Barnard, happiest when he could spend all night observing, was moody and difficult when the sky was cloudy.
My Blog
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droid
rocketman
Reged: 08/29/04
Posts: 4258
Loc: ohio
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a year or so ago, I posted a similiar post , M51 was impossible to find.....then a freind from a another group suggested I get my mind around what I was really looking for not what I imagined I would see, I know not very technical, but once I stopped looking for a galaxy and began looking for an almost non existant somthing I was amazed that I could find it in my 50mm finder, granted it isnt much , justa a fuzzy something, using your 30mm 2 inch should help too, and as mentioned above wait till the moon is out of the sky.And you have a really clear night, and....well you get the idea,lol. Best of luck to you.
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12 inch Truss Reflector "John"
102mm Celestron C102HD " Carl "
Tasco 7TE5 60mm Classic
Tasco 9TE5 60mm Classic
Celestron Ultima 2000 SCT "Wilma"
Celestron Comet catcher(orange tube)
1960 Edscorp Space Conquerer 6inch f/8
10x50 Bushnell Binoculars.
60mm Telescope Club
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 964
Loc: Waco, TX
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A hint that might work for you since you're using an alt-az mounted scope: if you choose the right time (use Stellarium), M51 will be almost directly down from Alkaid. Around Eugene (I couldn't find Portland in Stellarium), this time will be around 1 am right now. So point the scope to Alkaid at that time, and then very slowly move down from it. You will ideally count off the number of your fields of view that cover the 3.5 degree distance from Alkaid to M51 as you move. Or you may want to follow along on a star chart, noting distinctive star patterns along the way.
If the sky is dark and you have a magnifying finder, you might easily find M51 in the finder: just put Alkaid in the very top of the finder's field of view (assuming it's an upright image finder--otherwise, reverse this), and then M51 should be near the middle or bottom (depending on the finder's field of view).
But as people said, wait a couple of days for the moon to go away.
If 1 am is too late for you, you just need to nudge the scope a bit left before moving it down to M51. I think that's what I did when I was (successfully) looking for M51 in my 68mm finder/travelscope a couple of days ago. (Conditions: green skies; almost full moon but hidden behind mountain; location: BC Canada.)
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Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm GSO SV, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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94bamf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 986
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
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Quote:
Quote:
Your CSC is for Portland so this leads me to the question of how far into the light pollution are you? This is a difficult galaxy pair under light pollution. Like I said, from a reasonably dark location (with no Moon)it is an easy object with even 10X50 binoculars.
Bill
Our viewing site is about 24 miles from portland and is used by our local astronomy club. At the star parties I've seen a lot of nice DSO's from other telescopes. Some pretty faint nebulas that are supposed to be harder to see than M51. I think I'll wait till the new moon and try again.
Is your observing site on THIS LIST ?
It looks like most the sites around 20-30 miles from Portland are in the yellow on the LP map. From my experience, galaxies are extremely hard hit by light pollution, even a yellow area might be hard to spot M51. M51 is pretty obvious from a blue site, but I never seen it at my local yellow site. I am sure I could spot it NOW from a yellow site because I know what to look for, but I would imagine it would be very faint. I find M51 to be one of the fainter/softer/puffy galaxies, and the core seems dimmer that most other popular galaxies like M81, M82, M31, etc, which I think makes it harder to spot. As everyone else has stated, forget about it with the moon out. M51 really looked amazing at Nebraska Star Party through my 8 inch newt, I could make out the spiral arms pretty easy.
Good Luck!
Ken
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Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Binoculars:
Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 8x42
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Celestron 10x42 Regal
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Zhumell 20x80
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Locoman
sage
Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 201
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I've viewed it several times from my yellow zone with no street lights in view and it is barely visible. I can make out the core but faintly and I have tried to find it without my degree circles and it is very difficult to find in my yellow zone but like the droid say's don't look for a galaxy but look for something almost non existant!
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Zhumell Z10
XT6
SW 90mm Az
Jason 60mm
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Ferebee64
sage
Reged: 04/10/08
Posts: 210
Loc: Portland, Oregon
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If you are talking about Rooster Rock I dont think you are going to have much luck even with no moon - Rooster Rock is east of Portland and you have to look right through the glow dome to see Canes Venatici in the West -
You would have much better luck at Stub Steward State Park when there is no moon this puts the LP of Portland at your back.
About a week ago I happened to take my 8" dob with me to Foster Lake - about 100 miles south of portland and east up into the Cascades - I found this awesome dark spot up in the hills above the lake - the milky way was visible with the naked eye and the moon was about half full - to the north the LP of Portland still crept in and made things difficult to see in the north - the light dome was more obvious but smaller from that far away - but I was surprised that a smallish city 100 miles away could have that much effect on the sky - what a shame
RF
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akemag
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/26/07
Posts: 548
Loc: Sweden
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M51 can be hard, i went thru the same thing with my first 70mm refractor. In that scope it didnt jump out at you.
Low power usually does the trick, i use my 32mm to locate it, and then step up the mag. With the right star charts, and patience, youŽll find it for sure.
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Celestron Omni XLT 120
Celestron Powerseeker 80EQ
Bresser Skylux 70mm
10" GSO DOB
5mm Ortho
6.5mm, 25mm, 32mm Plossl
3.6mm, 10mm, 25mm MA
20mm Erfle
4mm, 10mm, 12mm, 18mm RK20mm Kellner
8mm, 20mm Huygens
1.5-2x Barlow
Orange, Green, Variable Polarizing Moon filter
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ottovonrotton
member
Reged: 01/01/09
Posts: 70
Loc: Where is Port Perry?
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I to have gone after this, I used an 80mm scope with 25mm eyepiece to spot or starhop. Couldn't see it but when I looked in my 127mm/1200 with 15mm eyepiece and saw what I would call a very faint rose shape snowball. let the eyes relax and after a couple of seconds I saw it and its companion. I took several tries over the last couple of years. besides dark skies you need a little apiture and focal length, Perfect for a reflector or long refractor
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Go Modern, Go Gas, Go Bang!
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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
Reged: 10/28/08
Posts: 2664
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Everyone has a unique way of finding DS0s. This year I've been able to add M51 to my modest accomplishments with binoculars in light-polluted skies. Here's what I do.
The image attachment is a screenshot from Stellarium with some labeling and lines done in Photoshop. The triangle is my guide to M51. The triangle and M51 fit a 2° FOV easily.
Clear Skies!
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Todd
Brunton Eterna 15x51 ° Garrett Optical Signature Series 15x70
Nikon Action EX 12x50 ° Oberwerk 15x60 and 20x80 (Standard)
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II
Orion Paragon Plus Mount and Paragon XHD Tripod
Garrett Optical Series 2000 Grip-Action Monopod
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