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bill_lombardo
journeyman
Reged: 04/07/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Cislago, Lombardy, Italy
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The price beeing almost the same, what to choose for taking night pictures with a Canon 350D and 50mm, 85mm, 200mm and 400mm lenses ?
Polar alignment seems easier with Vixen Polar scope with a precision of about 3 arc/minutes and error of 0.005% while AstroTrac precision is disclosed as 5 arcsec/5 minutes.
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PER ASPERA AD ASTRA
Tele Vue Ranger 70mm
Celestron C5+ 127mm
NexStar 8 SE 203mm
William Optics Megrez 90mm Apo
Astro-Physics 400 GTO GEM Mount / Vixen Porta altazimuth / Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
Canon IS 15x45mm; Fujinon 16x70mm
Canon 350 D modified Baader / NexImage / SBIG ST 5
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Taylor
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Federal Way, WA
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The TT320X seems to have made this user happy.
This guy posted a respectable widefield photo with it too.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3222574/Main/3217539 That is a CN thread with minimal replies about the same topic.
It seems like a cool device to me, minimal setup time and easy to use so you can get to enjoying the hobby instead of fussing with equipment.
Is the 400 GTO a very portable mount? If so could you just piggyback the camera onto that setup?
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Some OTAs, a mount, some eyepieces, and some cameras
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bill_lombardo
journeyman
Reged: 04/07/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Cislago, Lombardy, Italy
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Thanks!
Probably, I'm the laziest astroimager in the North of Italy and, more than AP 400 GTO, I prefer to make use of the C5+ equatorial fork mount. I use Bigourdan method to polar align and carefully I put my Canon 350D on a Vixen dovetail where was my trusty C5 scope. Results are satisfactory.
AstroTrac or Vixen are further ways to try to simplify the task avoiding wedge, etc..
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PER ASPERA AD ASTRA
Tele Vue Ranger 70mm
Celestron C5+ 127mm
NexStar 8 SE 203mm
William Optics Megrez 90mm Apo
Astro-Physics 400 GTO GEM Mount / Vixen Porta altazimuth / Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
Canon IS 15x45mm; Fujinon 16x70mm
Canon 350 D modified Baader / NexImage / SBIG ST 5
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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 1862
Loc: Virginia
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The AstroTrac was designed with ultra-portability in mind so that you could truly travel anywhere in the world to dark sky sites and get the kind of tracking accuracy that would allow for long exposures with dSLR. I think there are plenty of posts and images out there that can attest to the fact that this goal was achieved admirably. I have a Mach 1 GTO and an Astrotrac. They are different beasts of course and each fills it niche - but I find a lot of uses for the Astrotrac even in my backyard. Sometimes I just don't like lugging out the heavy artillery. I also use the Astrotrac for solar observing and imaging with webcams where precise polar alignment is not critical - works great.
The new gear from Astrotrac (wedge, pier, head, etc.) is pretty amazing; if it works as advertised I think it will clearly signal that the most portable high-accuracy astrophotography rig has indeed been created.
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Hooville
AP 105EDF f/6 Traveler; AP 140 EDF StarFire f/7.5; TV 76 f/6.3 with Solarscope SF70 filter; Solarscope Solarview 50; Coronado CaK 70; Orion XT-10; Baader Mk V & ZAO II's; Half-Hitch Mk II; Astrotrac TT320X, pier & wedge; AP Mach1GTO; PGR Flea 2
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
The price beeing almost the same, what to choose for taking night pictures with a Canon 350D and 50mm, 85mm, 200mm and 400mm lenses ?
Polar alignment seems easier with Vixen Polar scope with a precision of about 3 arc/minutes and error of 0.005% while AstroTrac precision is disclosed as 5 arcsec/5 minutes.
Hi Bill,
I've been interested in the answer to that same question for some time now, but there's not much information out there on the GP2 Photo Guider. It seems to be one of those obscure setups waiting to be discovered! I've been eyeing the mount for almost a year now, and I ended up purchasing the GP2 Photo Guider recently just to see what it's like.
Prior to purchasing it, I did some analysis and found that the Vixen GP2 Photo Guider came out less expensive than the AstroTrac after adding in all the extra costs associated with actually using the AT. Since polar alignment is a must for AP, the 'optional' polar alignment scope is really not optional. The Astrotrac does not include a tripod or a way to position the the device to polar align it, so an additional geared ball head has to be purchased which really boosts the outlay. If you already have the tripod and geared head, then no problem. For me the cost difference between the complete Astrotrac setup and the Vixen Photo Guider was about $450.
The Vixen GP2 Photo Guider comes with everything you will need to do DSLR wide field imaging. There are no hidden costs. It comes with RA drive motor, polar alignment scope, and a hand controller. Reviews I've read on the Vixen polar alignment scope all say that it is an accurate way to polar align.
Since I only purchased the Vixen GP2 Photo Guider about a month ago, I'm still in the process of checking it out. With our weather here in the eastern US, that can be trying at best. I've used it once so far, imaging with my XSi and a 50mm f/1.8 II lens. I did not do an accurate polar alignment (left the illuminated finder at home...big dummy) so only centered Polaris in the Polar axis scope as best as I could. I was able to get 5 minutes of accurate unguided exposures with no problems with that configuration alone. I hope to be testing it with an accurate polar alignment and my AT66ED (320mm f/l) soon. I'm not sure how well it would do supporting a 400mm lens as it's only rated up to about 6 lbs. I think the rating has more to do with the tripod and camera attachment points rather than the mount itself...after all it is a standard GP2 head without the Dec axis. The standard GP2 has a weight rating of about 20-25 lbs. The mount would be ideal for a 200mm f/2.8, and perhaps a 300mm f/4.
The Vixen Photo Guider is a little shorter than it may seem in vendor photos, such as this one at B&H Photo. (This is where I bought mine...best price I could find). The height of the entire setup is only 30"! BUT, if you consider that the purpose of the setup is to be portable, that's not too bad. If you look at the Astrotrac by itself it's pretty compact, but when you add in the tripod and ball head required for it's use, it loses some ground in that catagory. The Vixen GP2 Photo Guider and all components fit into the included carry case with the exception of the battery pack, which I carry in an accessory case along with some other essentials needed for imaging.
One other thing I wanted to mention is that when I opened up the Photo Guider box, I found a DD2 controller rather than the advertised SD1 controller. I think Vixen stopped production on the SD1's. For me that was wonderful, because I'll be able to use the DD2 controller down the road if I decide to upgrade to a full blown two axis GP2 mount.
I have a couple of photos of the setup I can download when I get home from work plus an image taken with the mount.
Patrick
Edit: Photo Added
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10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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I look at it from the flip side of the coin... After getting frustrated with the scope-based astrophotography, I've pretty much ditched all the AP gear. The AstroTrac is basically my 'last shot at AP' setup. Unfortunately, I've not gotten a chance to take it under the stars just yet (if you are wondering why the clouds rolled in the last couple of days in the Seattle area, blame me), but here are the reasons I picked it over something like GP2 Photo Guider:
- No counterweights required. Balance the load over the axis of rotation and you are good to go.
- Because it integrates into a setup for regular photography, your gear is a little more multi-purpose. This makes more sense if you also have a desire for daytime work.
- The kit I got (before the price increase this week) is actually robust enough that I can use the gear head and an 80ED for visual work, with similar vibration levels to the Astro-Tech Voyager (although a Mak would be a bit better in terms of balance/vibration here). The ball head is plenty for the DSLR by itself for most situations on top of that.
- Broken down, the entire setup to do a few hours in the mountains is about 12-15lbs and the size is easily thrown into a backpack to take with you.
It boils down to: nothing wasted, and can run on minimal power. I'm planning on being at OSP this year, and wouldn't have been able to bring the Dob *and* the CGEM/AT8IN. I was planning on leaving the imaging gear at home... but with how portable the AstroTrac is, it will likely come along for the ride now.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 1862
Loc: Virginia
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I'd just again emphasize the portability issue and how it would be hard to beat the Astrotrac system on this alone. I hate being an early adopter but I went ahead and ordered pier, wedge and the new head and counterweights. I already have an Astrotrac and if this other stuff is built as well as the mount itself, I doubt I'll be disappointed. Have a look at the pier here for an idea of the portability. Everything but your scope/camera fits in the tube!
If the cost is more important than portability - well, then your choices are wider. My guess is that the Vixen GP2 will be a good performer. I'd certainly like to hear more about it. Thanks for the report Patrick!
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Hooville
AP 105EDF f/6 Traveler; AP 140 EDF StarFire f/7.5; TV 76 f/6.3 with Solarscope SF70 filter; Solarscope Solarview 50; Coronado CaK 70; Orion XT-10; Baader Mk V & ZAO II's; Half-Hitch Mk II; Astrotrac TT320X, pier & wedge; AP Mach1GTO; PGR Flea 2
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Paul Romero
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 757
Loc: Reno, NV
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Quote:
I hate being an early adopter but I went ahead and ordered pier, wedge and the new head and counterweights. I already have an Astrotrac and if this other stuff is built as well as the mount itself, I doubt I'll be disappointed. Have a look at the pier here for an idea of the portability. Everything but your scope/camera fits in the tube!quote]
Doug,
I've read about this new equipment on the website for Astrotrac. Is this setup an improvement over the Monfrotto (?) tripod, polar head assembly, and ballhead. If it is more better in everything, how? Its not more portable, I think.
thx,
Paul
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Good As New MI-250 Refurb
'nough said
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
I'd just again emphasize the portability issue and how it would be hard to beat the Astrotrac system on this alone.
I realize that there are many benefits to the Astrotrac. I wanted one since they first came out and I've spent more than my fair share of time drooling over their website, visiting the Yahoo user group, and etc. Since it's the new kid on the block and is an interesting innovation, it's gotten a lot of press.
On the other hand, the Vixen GP2 Photo Guider is relatively unknown. I know that because I've spent a considerable amount of time looking for information on it and found barely a picture or two. I've posted threads at least 2 times on this forum soliciting information on the Photo Guider and had maybe a half dozen responses (several advising me to buy an Astrotrac  ). There are only one or two reviews that I've found anywhere on the net regarding this mount, and they were for an older version of it. The mount is basically a spin off of the better known Vixen GP2 GEM mount, which has been around a long time and doesn't garner a lot of attention either.
So, having said all that and now having the GP2 in hand, I would say that the little Vixen can more than hold it's own as compared to the AstroTrac as a complete setup in the portability catagory. The entire setup including the tripod legs, mount, controller, counterweight, polar alignment scope, motor, etc...everything...with the exception of the battery pack (8-d cell batteries) weighs 16.6 lbs (measured on my bathroom scale) and fits in the carry case which measures 29" long by about 6" x 8". . The 8-D cell battery pack weighs 2.4 lbs and fits in a separate case along with other essential imaging accessories. Here is a picture of the complete setup in the carry bag. The aluminum case in the picture is a standard size attache case and holds a dew buster, a ball head, a Stiletto, and a couple of other things...things I'd have to carry anyway.
More thoughts and images to come...
Patrick
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10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Here's a view inside the carry bag. The black bag on top of the legs in the photo contain the hand controller, illuminated reticle for the polar finder, and the counterweight. When bundled up, the controller sits nestled on top of and in between the legs.
Patrick
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10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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The counterweight weighs 2.4 lbs (1.1 kg) with the counterweight shaft screwing into the RA axis head. The counterweight could be replaced by another camera for dual shooting and balancing as well.
Note the illuminated reticle sitting over the polar finder scope.
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10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
Doug,
I've read about this new equipment on the website for Astrotrac. Is this setup an improvement over the Monfrotto (?) tripod, polar head assembly, and ballhead. If it is more better in everything, how? Its not more portable, I think.
thx,
Paul
The idea is that the pier holds everything inside it. The legs, cables, the AstroTrac itself, and the wedge. You basically carry a 6"x30" tube with everything you need minus the camera + lenses, and weight similar to the Manfrotto setup (give or take a lb or two).
Either one you can take backpacking easily, with the added bonus that the pier + wedge are going to be more rigid than the tripod setup, and let you carry heavier loads than you could with the Manfrotto. The TT320X is rated for 33lbs, and with the Manfrotto, you can't even use half that.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Kolenka,
I feel the same way you do regarding astrophotography...it's a lot of work, late at night and it should be fun, not a chore!
Here are some additional thoughts regarding the versatility of the Vixen GP2 Photo Guider having its own tripod rather than sharing one with another piece of equipment:
While it's true that a photo tripod can be used for daytime use such as terrestrial wild life viewing or photography, it's not possible to use a photo tripod for imaging and at the same time use it for stargazing with a small telescope. Since the Vixen mount has it's own built-in tripod, the photo tripod can be used for other things.
As an example, I have a Bogen 475B heavy duty tripod that would work quite well with the AstroTrac. However, I also use that tripod to support my 15x70 binoculars. I can't use it for both applications at the same time, so the fact that the Vixen has it's own tripod frees up the bigger mount for stargazing while the shutter on may camera is happily snapping away.
Here's one more photo of the mount from the back side.
Patrick
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10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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That assumes I /need/ to use the tripod for something else at the same time as I am using the AstroTrac. Since I have the 12" Dob (which is actually quite easy to cart around and assemble), I never really need two visual scopes and an AP mount all at the same time.
In my case, it makes more sense to consolidate in this area. In yours it doesn't... there isn't anything wrong with that, and there is no reason we have to come to the same conclusion on what gear to use.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Quote:
there is no reason we have to come to the same conclusion on what gear to use.
Certainly! Everyone is different with their own requirements.
The OP is looking for comparisons between the two setups. The point I was trying to make is that he won't have to buy a separate tripod to use with the Vixen Photo Guider. There's so little info out there on the Photo Guider, I thought it might be helpful to publish some of the details I've gleaned from mine and to point out some of the differences.
Clear skies,
Patrick
Edited by Patrick (08/08/09 12:00 AM)
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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 1862
Loc: Virginia
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Thanks for the photos and detailed descriptions Patrick. It is certainly a lot more compact than I thought based on the stock Vixen images I've seen.
Paul - I think the improvement of the new Astrotrac gear over the tripod and Manfrotto geared head is several fold. First, the new wedge is compact and hopefully, more rigid and precise. It sure looks well built. The pier probably adds a lot more stability than a photo tripod. One issue with the Astrotrac or any imaging mount I suppose becomes how well it behaves in wind. The pier is inherently more stable in this regard (or at least should be) and the hollow tube can be filled with ballast (sand, rocks, etc.) to improve wind resistance and vibration further. Third, the new head - based on a Giro mini - has an advantage over ballheads in terms of using a heavier OTA instead of just a dSLR. The Astrotrac folks have designed compact counterweights for the Giro as I understand it so you can balance a much heavier bunch of gear on the Astrotrac without any clearance problems. Finally, as already mentioned, the portability issue is likely better with the new pier because most of the mount related gear will fit inside. I've ordered this stuff so I'll be happy to report back when I've had a chance to use my Astrotrac with it.
As an aside, the pier also looks like it would be a good compliment to my HalfHitch Alt/Az mount (although maybe not high enough for my liking) so I can get double duty out of it.
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Hooville
AP 105EDF f/6 Traveler; AP 140 EDF StarFire f/7.5; TV 76 f/6.3 with Solarscope SF70 filter; Solarscope Solarview 50; Coronado CaK 70; Orion XT-10; Baader Mk V & ZAO II's; Half-Hitch Mk II; Astrotrac TT320X, pier & wedge; AP Mach1GTO; PGR Flea 2
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skyler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/16/06
Posts: 1672
Loc: TGPNW
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So I have been interested in both of these myself and wondering if I compared the GP2 and the pier'd 320X, what is the final cost to be up and running fully with both?
I could easily haul around the GP2 compared to my EM200 and soon NJP so an easy setup I can pack into the car and head up into back country. Either would work since it will go into a car and not a backpack. So, it will boil down for me to $$.
S
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Doug D.
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 1862
Loc: Virginia
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I think the Astrotrac set-up is a good deal more expensive if you go with their pier, wedge and head.
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Hooville
AP 105EDF f/6 Traveler; AP 140 EDF StarFire f/7.5; TV 76 f/6.3 with Solarscope SF70 filter; Solarscope Solarview 50; Coronado CaK 70; Orion XT-10; Baader Mk V & ZAO II's; Half-Hitch Mk II; Astrotrac TT320X, pier & wedge; AP Mach1GTO; PGR Flea 2
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bill_lombardo
journeyman
Reged: 04/07/09
Posts: 6
Loc: Cislago, Lombardy, Italy
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Thanks to everybody! All the people were so gentle, kind and scrupolous!
I took my decision and I'll go for a Vixen GP2 Photo Guider.
It's a more compact package, lighter and much cheaper than the complete package of AstroTrac. And, if I want, I can put my TeleVue Ranger 70mm (1.6 kg) side by side to my camera for guiding, in RA, very very long exposures. With a precision of 3' arcminutes, the Vixen Polar scope would consent unguided exposures up to 5/7 minutes with my Canon 200mm L f/2.8 or up to 20 minutes with my Canon 85mm L f/1.2 lens, which is what I want.
Again thanks to everybody!
--------------------
PER ASPERA AD ASTRA
Tele Vue Ranger 70mm
Celestron C5+ 127mm
NexStar 8 SE 203mm
William Optics Megrez 90mm Apo
Astro-Physics 400 GTO GEM Mount / Vixen Porta altazimuth / Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
Canon IS 15x45mm; Fujinon 16x70mm
Canon 350 D modified Baader / NexImage / SBIG ST 5
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Patrick
Postmaster
Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 7809
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
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Here's a 5 minute single unguided shot of the Milky Way near Cygnus with a 50mm f/1.8 II lens and a Canon XSi. I inadvertently took this shot at f/8 or it would have been brighter. Polar alignment was a rough alignment only with Polaris centered in the polar scope. The Vixen polar alignment scope is capable of greater accuracy than that when the polar alignment scope is used with the illuminated reticle and then dialing in the correct time and date.
Patrick
--------------------
10" f/6 Truss Tube Newtonian
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon XSi; Meade DSI;SPC900-NC
Vixen GP2 Photo Guider Mount
My Astronomy Pages
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