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Larry F
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 1598
Loc: Westchester, NY
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As a suburban astronomer (my "dark sky" site is a mere 39 miles north of Times Square and at elevation 300 feet), I view DSOs in an 8" SCT and I'm limited to the brighter galaxies, clusters and planetaries, all at the margin of visibility. On a very good night the Milky Way is just barely visible, and light and particulate pollution and atmospheric extinction makes viewing near the horizon impossible. In the summer, humidity inhibits transparency and coats everything in dew. The Mallincam has become a routine viewing tool to make an evening enjoyable.
On kind of a lark, my wife and I arranged a quick trip to Vail, Colorado where we ski in the winter, and I brought my Stellarview Nighthawk 80 mm f/6 scope and an Astrotech Voyager mount. After dinner last night we drove out to Camp Hale on US 24 between Minturn and Leadville. This is a large valley where the 10th Mountain Division trained during WWII. Needless to say, no lights, no light domes from anywhere and at 9,200 feet, not much atmosphere. Minimal humidity and no dew, even with the temperature dropping into the high 40's by midnight.
There wasn't a single cloud in the sky. Once astronomical twilight came to an end, about 10 pm, the Milky Way blazed in all its glory from horizon to horizon. With binoculars it was easy to pick out many open and globular clusters. Finding DSO's was easy using a laser and the Pocket Sky Atlas. I used a 2" 30 mm 80-degree eyepiece (16x) as my "scouting" ocular. M13 was resolved to stars with a 9mm Nagler T6 (53x), looking much more impressive than at home in the 8" SCT. In Scorpius and Sagittarius, M4, M6, M7, M69, M70, M54 and M28 were easily seen. M8 was much better in the 3" than at home in th 8", with wisps of nebulosity clearly evident. Nebulosity surrounding M8 was also easy to see. M17 and M16 were both impressive and M11 was a gorgeous collection of pinpoint stars.
On the other side of the sky, M81 and M82 were easy, with some detail in M81. For the first time, I saw M101, a ghostly blob but clearly there. But the glory of glories was M51. Although the spiral arms weren't visible, the body of the galaxy had a bright core surrounded by a distinct patch of variable brightness, with the core and body of NGC5195 also visible and the lane between them quite evident. Averted vision helped a lot for M101 and M51, but remember, this was a 3" scope!
Of course M57 and M27 were viewed, and it was nice to see Albireo without all that shaking that comes from the heat plumes of civilization. We used 10x50 Nikons mounted on a monopod to meander around the Milky Way, picking out open and globular clusters and dust bands and even got a view of NGC7000. At about 11:15 pm, Jupiter popped over the distant mountains, with two sharply defined equatorial bands and the 4 Galilean moons looking like tiny pearls. At home, this low in the sky it usually looks like a fuzzy ping pong ball.
Now I've got to figure out a way to get a bigger scope onto the plane for the next trip!
-------------------- C5 Orange Tube SCT, CPC 800 XLT SCT
Orion 127 Mak, StellarVue Nighthawk
Coronado Maxscope 40, Lunt 60mm H-alpha double-stack
5 1/4" f/5.2 home-built Newtonian
Denk II Binos
Giro 2/Tech2000 Giro Driver/Tech2000 QuickDraw Pier
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
A zillion eyepieces and some more mounts
Mason & Hamlin BB 2140 mm (grand piano)
My Gallery
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Doug Brown
sage
Reged: 02/24/06
Posts: 409
Loc: Fort Worth
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Can I get an “a-men brothers” to that.
-------------------- Doug Brown
Though my soul may set in darkness, it will rise in perfect light;
I have loved the stars too truly to be fearfull of the night. ---Sarah Williams, 1868
10” Mead converted to Dob
Broken 20 x 70’s
7 x 50’s
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1706
Loc: Plano, TX
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Dark skies can bring out the most in a small scope and makes us realize better what the true limits of these instruments are.
I remember several years ago on the Saturday night before a TSP, one of my best friends and observing buddy (Bill D.) and I went up to the top of Skyline drive at the Davis Mountains State Park and brought only our 80 mm refractors (we both happened to have the WO 80mm's). We spent several hours going quite deep into the Milky Way and other areas. I remember our surprise and satisfaction at how nice the Ink Spot nebula (B86) looked through those scopes.
Less can be as much as you want with the right observing conditions and dark skies.
-------------------- Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Awesome report Larry! I applaud you for still observing at your home too, "civilization" is a pain sometimes. I don't have access to skies as dark as you described, but they are much better than what you have to contend with and I try not to take them for granted. BTW, it ain't the size of the scope, it's the skill of the observer at the scope.
-------------------- Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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Patricko
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 01/30/07
Posts: 1534
Loc: SE New Mexico USA
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Quote:
Can I get an “a-men brothers” to that.
A-men Brothers!
-------------------- Clear skies,
Patrick
INTERNATIONAL DARK SKY ASSOCIATION
60MM TELESCOPE CLUB!
"You can always have better, but will you ever be happy with what you have?" - Me, myself, and I
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rocco13
Got Milk?
Reged: 07/29/06
Posts: 2655
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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That was a nice report to read. Many of us (myself included) get caught up in aperture that we overlook what smaller scopes can provide under the right conditions.
One time I took both a 15" truss dob and my 4" widefield refractor to a dark sky site. As the night wore on, I really wanted to spend more time with the smaller scope, just because I was impressed with what it brought in under dark skies. NGC 4565 was an especially pleasant surprise in the little scope, along with several others I didn't think possible.
-------------------- Rocco
Zhumell Z12
Super C8 (1984 vintage)
Celestron 102 f/5
and a cheap pair of binoculars
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lymorkiew45
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/30/07
Posts: 735
Loc: In the dark, and way out there...
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Rocco13
How does your 12" Zhumell match up in viewing experience to your former 15" Obsession under dark skies?...clear skies...
-------------------- Jorgen
Starfinder 16 dob: Zambuto Optics!
DS-10
Orion XT12i: The optics are special!
Z12
All the Lanthanum superwides!
Orion ultrablock filter
9mm Nagler type 6
15mm, 25mm, 35mm Ultrascopics
Orion Shorty Plus barlow
Orion Lazer Collimator
40" Webster: Under Construction
http://cleardarksky.com/c/SanJoseCAkey.html?1
20 years in Southern Dragon Kung Fu, or dragon style embellished in magical arms.
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4122
Loc: Ireland
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Larry --
We have a place in Breckenridge that we usually visit for most of July. I've got a 10" Mewlon that I keep there.
Drop me a line next time you arrange a trip -- it'd be fun to meet up for an observing session if our schedules overlap. (I was out myself on the 16th -- see the thread "Globs on the Horizon".)
Cheers, -- Jeff.
-------------------- Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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rocco13
Got Milk?
Reged: 07/29/06
Posts: 2655
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
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Quote:
Rocco13
How does your 12" Zhumell match up in viewing experience to your former 15" Obsession under dark skies?...clear skies...
Since I'm going by memory and not an actual side-by-side comparison, the Obsession showed slightly more detail on galaxies, and slightly brighter images. It was able to pull in more fainter members of the Virgo cluster, for example, but truthfully, the difference wasn't as much as I expected. I'll admit I was disappointed going from an Orion 12" to the 15" Obs...not that much of a wow factor. That's one of the main reasons I went back to the cheaper Zhumell 12".
(Apologies for derailing the original thread topic!)
-------------------- Rocco
Zhumell Z12
Super C8 (1984 vintage)
Celestron 102 f/5
and a cheap pair of binoculars
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Larry F
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 1598
Loc: Westchester, NY
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Jeff, we'll take you up on that next year if we can swing another July trip.
We went out to Camp Hale again last night for a couple of hours, looking again at the southern Milky Way (Ophiuchus, Sagittarius and Scorpio) and to the north, M64 and M90, M51 again, some more clusters (open and closed) around the sky and binocular scanning throughout the Milky Way. After a while, we stopped looking for specific objects and just sat there in the dark, making sure we were fully dark-adapted (no more referring to the Sky Atlas with a red headlamp) and looked at the sky. Spectacular! We head back today to suburban NYC and our mag 3 skies, mission accomplished.
So now I'm thinking: upgrade to 102mm travel-able refractor (like the SV 102ED), bring my 5" Mak (not the best DSO scope) or convince my friend who has a condo out here to keep a 10" dob (but his wife doesn't want any more stuff cluttering up the condo...boo!).
-------------------- C5 Orange Tube SCT, CPC 800 XLT SCT
Orion 127 Mak, StellarVue Nighthawk
Coronado Maxscope 40, Lunt 60mm H-alpha double-stack
5 1/4" f/5.2 home-built Newtonian
Denk II Binos
Giro 2/Tech2000 Giro Driver/Tech2000 QuickDraw Pier
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
A zillion eyepieces and some more mounts
Mason & Hamlin BB 2140 mm (grand piano)
My Gallery
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4122
Loc: Ireland
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Larry --
He he... I remember the first time I observed from Colorado -- I waited for nearly an hour for the band of clouds across the middle of the sky to clear before realizing it was the Milky Way. 
-- Jeff.
-------------------- Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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Chris Greene
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 12/04/05
Posts: 535
Loc: Dark Sky, Idaho
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Living where I do, we are close to those conditions that you describe in Vail. I do get some glow from the north (Twin Falls) but part of the reason I'm such an evangelist for small refractors is just how much they show under good skies. The most important aperture is the first three inches.
At local star parties, the differences between 3-4" refractors and 10-15" Dobs is more subtle than you might expect on most objects. Certainly, globulars are better resolved in the bigger scopes but looking at things like M81/M82, it's more a matter of brightness, not easy to see detail.
I lost my lust for large apertures when I realized just how much I could see with my refractors.
-------------------- Tele Vue Pronto/Telepod
Tele Vue NP-101/Gibraltar/Sky Tour
Questar 3.5 Standard
Celestron FS 80 EQ WA
Canon 10x30 IS binoculars
Nikon SE 8x32 binoculars
Zeiss Victory 10x25 binoculars
Garrett 25x100 IF binoculars
Manfrotto 475B/501
TV and Pentax ep's
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Mta472
member
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 94
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As I see it, your experience points to the signficance of having dark skies. As you know, the light gathering capacity of any spoce is determine by pi X r squared. Since pi is always a constant, lets just use r squared. For your 8 inch outside NYC this would give a value of 64 and the 3 inch would be squared to 9. Divide 64 by 9 and you find that the 8 inch gathers 7.11 times more light from all sources outside NYC than the 3 inch would. Your experience at the dark site shows how light pollution has gotta go. Or you do. I have a 12 inch SCT and a 5 inch newtonian. Doint the math, the 12 gathers only 5.76 times more light than the 5 inch newt. I currently live in suburban CT but will move to the dark Catskills next year. Based on what you found, I think I will jump the gun and just drive the 5 inch newt up there to see how close it comes to the 12 inch in CT.... based on what I see, I may end up moving up there sooner than I planned.
Keeping looking up Michael
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Larry F
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 1598
Loc: Westchester, NY
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I think it rather helped to have almost half the atmosphere below your feet and the humidity at 20%. That's what made Camp Hale so exceptional.
-------------------- C5 Orange Tube SCT, CPC 800 XLT SCT
Orion 127 Mak, StellarVue Nighthawk
Coronado Maxscope 40, Lunt 60mm H-alpha double-stack
5 1/4" f/5.2 home-built Newtonian
Denk II Binos
Giro 2/Tech2000 Giro Driver/Tech2000 QuickDraw Pier
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
A zillion eyepieces and some more mounts
Mason & Hamlin BB 2140 mm (grand piano)
My Gallery
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4122
Loc: Ireland
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Indeed, I've gotten a wide range of SQM readings (21.4 up to 21.8) at the same site on Hoosier Pass (at 10,500'). As there's no discernable man-made light pollution, I'd guess this is primarily a function of humidity. The difference between the good and "bad" readings is quite noticeable, even naked-eye.
-- Jeff.
-------------------- Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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TimD
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 02/16/05
Posts: 907
Loc: CA USA
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I live in a light pollution "white" zone. Last winter wife and I went to Oregon, A "Black" location and let me say, my first reaction was give me the sun glasses the stars are blinding me! I only had a WO 102 and a few ep's but I got more observing "bang for the buck" than in the previous year of all my observing combined!
-------------------- Takahashi TSC 225
WO Megrez 102
Meade ETX 90, ETX 125
Meade LX90
Classic Orange tube C14, C90, C5+
Etc,Etc,Etc!!
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1298
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Jeff, The 0.4m variance you got in your SQM readings can in no small part be attributed to the changing intensity of airglow. It can vary in surface brightness by up to a factor of two (or 0.7m) on pretty small spatial and temporal scales.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Jeff Young
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/04/05
Posts: 4122
Loc: Ireland
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Glenn --
Interesting. How small is small on the temporal scale? Back in Ireland I'll usually take about 4 or 5 readings in 2 or 3 minutes, and record the highest one that repeats. But the difference between the high and low is usually about 0.2 or 0.3. Would that also be changes in airglow?
-- Jeff.
-------------------- Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO
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