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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1276
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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I have viewed the veil with my 8"xti from a somewhat dark site (ZLM 6.5) and was pleasantly surprised with the detail.
I am planning to purchase a OIII filter soon. Is any one brand superior to the others? Sounds like the 12.5" scope and filter should give me a pretty good look at the veil.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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Jim Curry
sage
Reged: 10/29/07
Posts: 432
Loc: Maine
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>I have a field day teasing out as much detail as I can on objects like this without a filter on.<
Oh, yeah. I've only had mine for a couple of years. Hard to believe I've observed this long without one...
Jim
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Vixen 140 refractor
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NGC007
super member
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 111
Loc: England
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I use a 2" Lumicon OIII filter and am very pleased with it but must admit having no experience with any other brand.
Clem
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CPC 1100.
Ethos 17
Earthwin Power/Filter Slide
Giant Moonlite Focuser
Canon 10 x 42L image stabilised binoculars
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10494
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Quote:
Glad to read that other people could enjoy the nebula with smaller aperture scopes. Congrats. I'll try it as a challenge, but from a darker place.
NGC 6992 stands out fairly well in my filtered 101mm Tele Vue refractor. I can usually see it with my 8x42 Celestron binocular from a reasonably dark site but can only catch a vague hint of nebulosity in the western segment, NGC 6960. NGC 6960 and NGC 6992 are both easily visible with my 8" Starsplitter Tube Dob.
Dave Mitsky
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Rob E
Pierrot
Reged: 05/20/09
Posts: 1130
Loc: Eastern Virginia
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Quote:
Is any one brand superior to the others? Sounds like the 12.5" scope and filter should give me a pretty good look at the veil.
I had the chance to compare the view of the Veil through both a Lumicon and the Baader last month in my scope and FWIW, I'm ordering the Baader. The Baader OIII seemed to have better contrast to me.
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Rob E.
Some of us are actually paid to be funny.
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Zhumell 16"
Orion 120ST
Orion Starmax 127
Baader Planetarium Hyperions
Zhumell SWA EP's
There's two ways to do anything...right and twice
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Frank Luke
sage
Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 217
Loc: Dog Bark, OH
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Never tried an OIII, but the Omega NPB (UHC) filter is no slouch on the Veil.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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I took my ST80 to a dark site (green/blue zone) in August around new moon and saw the Veil for the first time. I had upgraded to a single-focus Crayford (why would I need a dual-focus for low powers?). I fitted it with a Knight Owl UWA 30mm 2" 80 deg AFOV eyepiece, which yielded 13x, 6 deg TFOV, 6mm exit pupil, and a brightness factor of 1.1. And I screwed on a Celestron 2" OIII filter. The results: Excellent views of the North America, Pelican and Veil Nebulae, in fact the first view I'd ever managed to have of any of these objects. I could see all three major parts of the Veil with no difficulty. My wife and daughter also had no problem seeing these nebulae, so it was not a matter of my visual-observing skills. These short tube achromats are great instruments for wide field Milky Way vistas and nebulae.
Since many on this thread have mentioned that the Veil can be seen in larger instruments, I'll give it a try with my 10" Newt. The big problem with larger scopes is the smaller field of view, which really doesn't do justice to these big, low-surface-brightness objects. The largest true field of view I'd be able to manage with my 10" is about 2 degrees, unless I want to use a wider exit pupil, which I don't, because it would be like putting an aperture stop on my scope. I doubt, though, that I'd be able to see the Veil or any similar object through any scope or bino here in the red zone, with or without an OIII. It's not the proper venue. A dark site is much better. 
Clear Skies,
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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square_peg
Postmaster
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 29467
Loc: Maple Valley, WA
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A filtered short fast refractor is great for seeing all 3 components of the Veil in one FOV. I've enjoyed this view many times with my old 100mm f/6 achromat and a 35 Pan.
You don't get the details in the nebulosity that you'd get with a larger scope but sometimes it's just nice to see the physical relationship of the components and to grasp the true size of the complex.
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Tom (Pegster)
DSH-8 (GSO Dob)
15x70 Oberwerks
SVP/ED80
WO 66 Petzval
Sears Discoverer EQ 60/900
8x42 Regals
History is Philosophy teaching by examples.
Thucydides
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10494
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Quote:
The results: Excellent views of the North America, Pelican and Veil Nebulae, in fact the first view I'd ever managed to have of any of these objects. I could see all three major parts of the Veil with no difficulty.
I've also had good views of those nebulae (including the entire Veil Nebula complex) from dark sites with my filtered 80mm f/5 ShortTube 80 and 80mm f/7.5 Vixen ED80Sf. My 101mm f/5.4 Tele Vue produces a larger true field of view than either of the 80mm refractors and a somewhat brighter view.
Dave Mitsky
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Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
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Ive read - forgot where - that the Veil "prefers" the UHC, but my OIII was never told that and the views are just dynamite. When I finally got the UHC I used it and compared it to the OIII view and while the sky is a little darker in OIII I really didnt see any difference. IT could be there to be sure, the veil is huge, but the cursary try I gave it yielded and ideantical view with again, the darker sky going to the OIII. The same happened with M97. I loved it through my OIII then I read [again] nope - the OWL prefers a UHC... so I use it. Nothing different. Looked good in UHC to be sure, but the OIII was hard hitting too.
Now that I've thrown in the OWL here - I will say, I had no idea how hard the eyes were to see until I got a good look with a large dob. I didnt feel so bad with my view after that.
Pete
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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square_peg,
Quote:
A filtered short fast refractor is great for seeing all 3 components of the Veil in one FOV. I've enjoyed this view many times with my old 100mm f/6 achromat and a 35 Pan.
You don't get the details in the nebulosity that you'd get with a larger scope but sometimes it's just nice to see the physical relationship of the components and to grasp the true size of the complex.
I saw plenty of detail in the Veil in my ST80 at the dark site. I'll have to remember to try it with my 10" Newt to see how much more detail is visible. But I do enjoy seeing the larger objects as a whole, complete and in the context of the surrounding stars and constellation.
Mike
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Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Dave,
Quote:
I've also had good views of those nebulae (including the entire Veil Nebula complex) from dark sites with my filtered 80mm f/5 ShortTube 80 and 80mm f/7.5 Vixen ED80Sf. My 101mm f/5.4 Tele Vue produces a larger true field of view than either of the 80mm refractors and a somewhat brighter view.
I had a 6 degree true field of view in my ST80 with a 30mm 80 degree AFOV 2" eyepiece. What was the TFOV in the TV 101? By the way, the flatness of the field in the ST80 impressed me, since I am used to the coma seen in a wide field view through a 10" f/4.7 Newt.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8279
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
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Quote:
Ive read - forgot where - that the Veil "prefers" the UHC, but my OIII was never told that and the views are just dynamite. When I finally got the UHC I used it and compared it to the OIII view and while the sky is a little darker in OIII I really didnt see any difference. IT could be there to be sure, the veil is huge, but the cursary try I gave it yielded and ideantical view with again, the darker sky going to the OIII. The same happened with M97. I loved it through my OIII then I read [again] nope - the OWL prefers a UHC... so I use it. Nothing different. Looked good in UHC to be sure, but the OIII was hard hitting too.
Now that I've thrown in the OWL here - I will say, I had no idea how hard the eyes were to see until I got a good look with a large dob. I didnt feel so bad with my view after that.
Pete
I think that it is pretty much accepted that the best filter for the Veil is the OIII filter. The narrowband filters work fairly well on it, but they just don't seem to provide that extra boost in contrast that the OIII does. Still, in my 9.25 inch SCT at 58x, the DGM Optics NPB did give my OIII filter a run for its money on the Veil. Clear skies to you.
--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I think that it is pretty much accepted that the best filter for the Veil is the OIII filter.
Agreed. You can argue about other objects, but if there's one object where an O-III really stands out, it's the Veil.
Having said that, any kind of narrowband filter improves the Veil immensely.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Since many on this thread have mentioned that the Veil can be seen in larger instruments, I'll give it a try with my 10" Newt. The big problem with larger scopes is the smaller field of view, which really doesn't do justice to these big, low-surface-brightness objects.
Actually, I don't find that to be a problem at all on the Veil. To some extent, I'd say, the bigger the scope, the better the view of this object.
Actually, let me revise that. The Veil has two different aspects. In one aspect, the best view I ever got of it was through my 4.5-inch Starblast. That let me see both loops, plus Pickering's triangle between them. Magnificent!
On the other hand, viewing either strand of the Veil through a 30-inch scope with an O-III filter is a transcendent experience. These strands are so complex and finely textured that they can take all the aperture and magnification that you can throw at them, and then some. Moreover, they're quite narrow, so they fit just fine in the FOV widthwise. Cruise up and down each strand to your heart's content.
M31 is similar. It's great to see the entire disk at low power, together with M32 and M110. But I also love cruising the dust lanes at 300X in a big scope, or getting a good closeup of NGC 206.
Some big objects take high power very well, others not so well. The Veil does well, the North America not so well, because it's less contrasty.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
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Quote:
I have observed the Veil nebula with five different instruments, ranging from a C11 with UHC-filter (it was specacular, even from the well-illuminated Belgium) up to a 46 cm Dobson and 52 cm f5.3 in the south of France.
A 20 cm scope really is too small to get the 'waaaww'-feeling.
Ive seen the Veil from my 70mm refractor on up to a 20" reflector. I own an 8" newt. While the views through scopes in the mega-size class are certainly worth their salt, the 8" views Ive had through filter[s] is just utterly phenomenal. The ghostly splendor of the glowing streamers of the shell is just about as good as deepsky gets. Even the little 70mm with an OIII has its place in that it shows this wonderful [ha ha] "birdseye" view of the area that clearly makes up for the lack of detail within the gases itself. Back to the 8" though - with a filter, be it UHC or OIII it is simply awe inspiring.
What I envy about the larger apertures is the detail in the "shreds" of the veil. That is something to behold to be sure. It'll turn the most astronomy-disinterested into state of wonder on the spot.
I know where you're going and why you might feel like that, Ive just seen too much in that neb with my 8" over the years to agree. If you were comparing say, a 3" view of the whirlpool galaxy to an 11" view - well there you go. But even then I'd have to say "yeah but" those arms look dynamit in my 8 too.
The 8" is an interesting threshold aperture in that for the human eye, it "usually" shows appreciable detail in a great many things. Not ALWAYS the best, but often at a level that atleast has a strong foothold on detail. Larger aperture takes it that much farther, but usually, 8 still has you in the arena. Naturally, I'm not talking about digging up 16th magnitude galaxies.
Pete
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azure1961p
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
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Quote:
Neither can i. Last year in the Provence in my 8 inch the Veil was just stunning.
This year even better but an 8 inch with OIII surely gives a wow.
Also the OIII is THE filter to use on the Veil and gives better views then an UHC filter.
Isn't it cool how that streamer just off 52cygni comes to this SHARP point? It wavers here and there with how I look at it, but man, there are moments it just lays there like this sharp, distinct sliver just jutting out like that into space.
Then theres that little leap across space and the cascade of the other arc just spans across the field. Whats neat is, the interesting parts hold up to magnification well so that while it will dim out to a degree and youll see a narrow portion, it does break down into it respective shreds and zones nicely. Sometimes I find, its not that I CANT see the bigger scope views, its just that it requires different technique and it can be had in smaller portions. The bigger scope always wins, but technique is a nice back-door at times.
Pete
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NGC007
super member
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 111
Loc: England
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You can see by my avatar image that I have screwed my OIII filter into my 10 x 41 Image Stabilised Binoculars. I have used them on the Dumbell with great results as well as the Ring Nebula, it stands out like a bright star even in poor seeing but not on the Veil yet. As soon as the full Moon legs it I will give them a go. Using the binoculars this way lets me see the stars as well. A bit of getting used to but it works.
Clem
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CPC 1100.
Ethos 17
Earthwin Power/Filter Slide
Giant Moonlite Focuser
Canon 10 x 42L image stabilised binoculars
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Dave Mitsky
Postmaster
Reged: 04/08/02
Posts: 10494
Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
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Quote:
Dave,
Quote:
I've also had good views of those nebulae (including the entire Veil Nebula complex) from dark sites with my filtered 80mm f/5 ShortTube 80 and 80mm f/7.5 Vixen ED80Sf. My 101mm f/5.4 Tele Vue produces a larger true field of view than either of the 80mm refractors and a somewhat brighter view.
I had a 6 degree true field of view in my ST80 with a 30mm 80 degree AFOV 2" eyepiece. What was the TFOV in the TV 101? By the way, the flatness of the field in the ST80 impressed me, since I am used to the coma seen in a wide field view through a 10" f/4.7 Newt.
Mike
Mike,
My ST80 has a 1.25" focuser so the TFOV with the longest focal length 1.25" that I currently own, a 30mm Celestron Ultima, is approximately 3.7 degrees.
My Tele Vue refractor produces a 4.4 degree TFOV with my 35mm Tele Vue Panoptic.
Dave Mitsky
--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.
De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1055
Loc: Suburban Maryland
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Dave,
Quote:
My ST80 has a 1.25" focuser so the TFOV with the longest focal length 1.25" that I currently own, a 30mm Celestron Ultima, is approximately 3.7 degrees.
My Tele Vue refractor produces a 4.4 degree TFOV with my 35mm Tele Vue Panoptic.
If you want a nice, very wide field view with your ST80, I recommend a Crayford upgrade. I got the GSO Crayford, single focus, which is fine for low power. I did not fully realize the capabilities of the little scope until I used it with the 30mm 80degree 2" eyepiece at a dark site. The Veil and North America nebulae are wonders to behold in a 6 degree field of view! But I do look forward to seeing more detail in my 10" Newt.
Mike
--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!
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