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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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KennyJ

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Takahashi 22 x 60
      #3328326 - 09/11/09 04:42 PM Attachment (98 downloads)

This model has been mentioned several times in recent posts , but since we rarely see any photos of the model and I happen to have come across this one in my files , I thought it would be nice to share it , welcoming any comments on the model from owners .

This specimen , with the red dot finder attached , belongs to my friend Brian Lee ( Medinabrit )


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BobinKy
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: KennyJ]
      #3328399 - 09/11/09 05:16 PM

Kenny...

I thought for minute, you were going to say that you once owned it and sold it in a weak moment.

Nice photo of the side view.

--------------------
Bob
38°N


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EdZModerator
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3328465 - 09/11/09 06:02 PM

Kenny,

Brian is a lucky man.

I've had Peter's (pcad) on loan for months. I must say, it is one of the finest instruments I've ever look thru.

No other instrument has even come close to the extent of field illumination that I've measured in the Tak. And the pinpoint images it gives are among the finest I've ever seen.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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pcad
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3328475 - 09/11/09 06:11 PM

Thanks Kenny,

It's a unique looking binocular. Seems obvious that the body was not designed by Takahashi. I think Gordon said they were made by a company whose name starts with K.

William optics adapted their 66mm and 70mm telescope optics to binoculars also, but had a more conventional appearence.

I think the star map motif was first/best used by Questar on their 3.5" Maksutov scopes. Other than the Taks, LOMO used a star map on some of their Maksutov scopes also.

How it looks is one thing. How it performs is another. It's probably the closest thing to an apochromatic binocular you can find without building a binoscope using apo refractors.

Too bad they no longer make them. I wonder how long Kowa will continue to make their Highlander Prominar 83mm binocular?

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x


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edwincjones
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: pcad]
      #3328576 - 09/11/09 07:13 PM

Quote:

.....................................................................................................

I wonder how long Kowa will continue to make their Highlander Prominar 83mm binocular?




Only as long as enough people buy them.


edj

--------------------

n w arkansas









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Wes James
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: edwincjones]
      #3328650 - 09/11/09 08:05 PM

I, too treasure my TAK's. I was very disappointed with the W/O bino's that many hoped would be a replacement for the TAKs'... I had the prototype from NEAF, and apparently the production models were better than mine, as I'm not the only one who was not very impressed... A friend of mine- Prof. Mike Reynolds, author of "Binocular Stargazing" looked through them and agreed with my comments I had made. The TAK's are a bino I'll never part with! They are, indeed, a jewel. Certainly more affordable than the Highlanders... would love to even just be able to look through a pair!

--------------------
Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL

Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O

"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers


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DJB
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Wes James]
      #3329052 - 09/12/09 12:34 AM

That's right pcad,

The very first ones that I can remember were the Questars! I particularly liked the Questar design of the shield.

Best regards,
Dave.


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: pcad]
      #3329108 - 09/12/09 01:42 AM

That K company is Katsuma. The same basic body was for the Tasco USMC 7 x 50, the Swift 7 x 50 for marine use, the Tamaya, the post-Rochester "Bausch&Lomb", and for whomever else wanted to buy enough to have their name on them. There was a similar, if not identical, body in the offerings by CO-OMIST K.K.(?), the Cooperative of Optical Makers in South Tokyo.

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Robert A.
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #3329717 - 09/12/09 12:00 PM

There is a Takahashi 22x60 available from a seller over in Europe, if anybody is interested.
The original buyer did not follow through--- Astromart webpage.


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medinabrit
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Robert A.]
      #3330617 - 09/12/09 10:12 PM

Nice of you to show the pic of my Tak astronomers Kenny.
They are along with the Swaro 15x56 & the Miyauchis things ill keep till i cant see anymore.
Jupiter looks really nice thru them tonight.


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CESDewar
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: medinabrit]
      #3330745 - 09/12/09 11:29 PM

After missing one pair on A-Mart, the next time a pair appeared, I think I put a bid in just minutes after the post!

As others have indicated, the views are just remarkable. Yes, my Miyauchi 30x77's with 45-degree EP's are more "ergonomic" and provide a wider AFOV but even the high quality Miya optics can't match the "Tak-sharp" view of these binos.

My favorite time to take them out is the full moon. At that time, there's often little to look at, but the sight of the full moon with the extraordinary contrast of the Tak's never fails to elicit a "Wow". There is no other piece of equipment I've looked through that matches the impact of the full moon through these binos.

Like the Miya's these are definitely on the "never sell" list!

--------------------



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medinabrit
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: CESDewar]
      #3330815 - 09/13/09 12:23 AM

Ive been looking for the Exceeds for a couple of years with no luck.
I have the Saturn 2 & the pleides .
Seems like i,ll never get the Exceeds.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: KennyJ]
      #3331030 - 09/13/09 06:33 AM

How fickle this group is!

Just last week, I posted about how exit pupil per se doesn't really matter, and people jumped all over me, saying that binos with small exit pupils aren't worth considering for astronomy.

And now we have this thread singing the praises of small-exit-pupil binos to the high heavens.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3331037 - 09/13/09 06:54 AM

Quote:

How fickle this group is!

Just last week, I posted about how exit pupil per se doesn't really matter, and people jumped all over me, saying that binos with small exit pupils aren't worth considering for astronomy.

And now we have this thread singing the praises of small-exit-pupil binos to the high heavens.




I find it difficult to keep track of who says exactly what from week to week. If you can, so be it. There are likely a few who have short-term memories along with inconsistencies and others who are fairly consistent about binocular features, specs, etc.

Best Regards,

Todd

--------------------
Todd

Brunton Eterna 15x51 ° Garrett Optical Signature Series 15x70
Nikon Action EX 12x50 ° Oberwerk 15x60 and 20x80 (Standard)
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II
Orion Paragon Plus Mount and Paragon XHD Tripod
Garrett Optical Series 2000 Grip-Action Monopod


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EdZModerator
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3331064 - 09/13/09 07:41 AM

Quote:

How fickle this group is!

Just last week, I posted about how exit pupil per se doesn't really matter, and people jumped all over me, saying that binos with small exit pupils aren't worth considering for astronomy.

And now we have this thread singing the praises of small-exit-pupil binos to the high heavens.




We are talking about a binocular here that fully illuminates the exit pupil across the entire field from more than 80% of the entire objective diameter. I've never seen any other binocular that does that. That's more than TWICE the norm for a typical binocular and in fact is 5x to 8x some binoculars. Other "best" binoculars fully illuminate the exit pupil from 50% of the objective diameter. Typical 10x50s and 8x40s fully illuminate the exit pupil from about 20-30% of the objective diameter. Roof prism binoculars fully illuminate the exit pupil from only about 10-20% of the objective diameter.

When you look at all the light entering across the field of view from a typical binocular, beyond about 30%-35% of the central area, light diminishes from 100%to perhaps less than 25% by the edge of view. When you look at all the light gathered across the field of view in the Takahshi 22x60, nearly every photon is delivered across nearly the entire exit pupil.

No other binocular I have ever seen does so much with so small an exit pupil. I have no doubt in my mind the illumination, and therefore brightness, of the Tak22x60 results in it performing well above its exit pupil size class. In fact it may even perform as if it were 1/3 to 1/2 again larger.

Tony, sometimes you have to look at the qualities that contribute to performance rather than look at a simple number that doesn't tell the whole story to argue a point. I've been saying for a long time that comparing exit pupils is not a "complete" indicator of the brightness of a binocular and there is more to it than that. The Tak22x60 is the finest example to illustrate that concept.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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BobinKy
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: EdZ]
      #3331212 - 09/13/09 10:04 AM

EdZ...

Well said.

. . .

Now, if you can just find a stash of Tak 22x60s for your Cloudy Nights following.

--------------------
Bob
38°N


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Les
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3331281 - 09/13/09 10:41 AM

Question: The term "fluorite" when applied to the Tak 22x60, does that imply that there are crystal calcium fluorite elements or only that fluoro- chemicals have been admixed to the normal glass elements? Are there binoculars with true fluorite elements? The advertising is usually ambiguous on this.

--------------------
Les

Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod


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Sgt
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Les]
      #3331308 - 09/13/09 10:55 AM

Calcium fluorite crystal elements. I think these were the same objective elements as used in the Tak FC60 mini refractors.

I think the Prominar version of the Kowa Highlander 82mm binoculars also have true CaF2 crystal elements.

These 2 are the only ones AFAIK.

Edited by Sgt (09/13/09 10:57 AM)


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StarStuff1
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Sgt]
      #3331436 - 09/13/09 12:16 PM

What is the weight and the fov of the 22x60s?

--------------------
Tools that make objects very far away appear much closer than they actually are.


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #3331461 - 09/13/09 12:28 PM

See my review of the Tak22x60 for specifics
Comparing GO22x85, WO22x70, Tak22x60

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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Sgt
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #3331464 - 09/13/09 12:29 PM

Fov 2.1 deg, wt I'm not sure exactly off the top of my head, but heavy!

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KennyJ

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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Sgt]
      #3331522 - 09/13/09 01:09 PM

From what I've read , the weight of the Takahashi 22 x 60 is around 4 pounds and 12 ounces , and for a 22x binocular it has outstanding eye relief of around 18mm.

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking about George S. Patton , then someone is not thinking





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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BobinKy
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: KennyJ]
      #3331548 - 09/13/09 01:35 PM

The Tak weight sure beats my 10-lb Signature 22x85.

...

Maybe we should start an e-mail campaign to Takahashi to bring out a successor? Without a doubt, it could easily be the best (and frequently purchased) astro binocular available.


--------------------
Bob
38°N


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StarStuff1
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: EdZ]
      #3331549 - 09/13/09 01:37 PM

Thanks, guys. This backs up what I remembered reading about the TAks, heavy for a 60mm and also not a very wide field. Still, a super sharp and contrasty image. Hope to come across someone using one of these at a star party soon.

--------------------
Tools that make objects very far away appear much closer than they actually are.


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Wes James
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #3331612 - 09/13/09 02:22 PM

The thing I find with these, probably due to the quality of the view- I never feel like I'm looking through a bino with a narrow FOV.
Wes

--------------------
Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL

Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O

"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers


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Gordon Rayner
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: EdZ]
      #3331802 - 09/13/09 04:41 PM

That the Tak 22 x 60 field is fully illuminated out to an unusual portion of the field is not surprising, when it is considered that the basic body-prism-eyepiece was built for a 7 x 50 with a much steeper light cone, something between f/3.5 and f/4.

I rapidly skimmed through 1991 to 1996 Tenmon Guides, but could not find any Tak ads featuring those, nor Japanese retailer ads with them included. I recall such ads in issues of TG , and probably in Sky& Telescope. Are they from the 1980's? Or from after 1996? My TGs from those periods are in a different location, away from here.

I have never used one. When I saw the adverts, I thought it was a strange combination, in particular since I had spent time fixing Swift and USMC Tasco with cracked glue around the prisms, liberal use by Katsuma of grease-retained shims under the prism plates , to bring the collimation error to within the range of adjustment provided by the somewhat loose eccentric rings around the objectives, heavy rubber, among unsavory aspects of what is a virtual copy, but with lower mechanical quality and integrity, of the WW II USN Bausch and Lomb Rochester Mk. 28 7 x 50.

A post in this forum stated, or speculated, that the objectives of the 22 x 60 Tak are a Canon product. What is the collimation method? Single or double eccentrics around both objectives? Double eccentric around only one objective, as in the Nikon 20 x 120 II and III? Prism plate tilting(which would likely require removing the coverplates, it seems from the photos)?

One wonders if the objectives were respaced (only ?, or radii and/or spacings changed) to work with the prisms, if they originated as part of a prismless refractor? If one has used fluorite, it seems that the prism effects must have been at least considered in the hybridization.

Another successful hybrid with add-on objective tubes screwed into a 7 x 50 body is the WW II USN 9 x 63, which has high axial image quality ( but not flourite or ED or Apo). The making of a hybrid similar to the Tak seems straightforward: untapered cylindrical tubes , ED or flourite objectives, narrow light cones. The major question is the compensation for the presence of prisms, hopefully by a simple respacing of the objective. The use of the phantom roof mode II Amici mirror airprism avoids those problems,should prism presence be significant with narrow cones and relatively( to most telescopes) low magifications, and gives comfortable zenith views.

With all of the attention drawn to those Taks recently, it seems that this is not a good time to look for one. Better to do some other type of observing until things cool off.


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Les]
      #3332870 - 09/14/09 08:01 AM

Quote:

Question: The term "fluorite" when applied to the Tak 22x60, does that imply that there are crystal calcium fluorite elements or only that fluoro- chemicals have been admixed to the normal glass elements? Are there binoculars with true fluorite elements? The advertising is usually ambiguous on this.




The Takahashi 22x60 appears to be a pair of off-the-shelf Takahashi 60-mm APOs with fluorite elements in the objectives grafted onto the body of a (mechanically extraordinarily rigid) 7x50 binocular. Not surprisingly, its optical performance is more like a conventional astronomical refractor than like conventional binoculars.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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Rick
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: EdZ]
      #3332930 - 09/14/09 09:02 AM

Ed may want to shine a green laser down the Canon 15x50IS he's testing too. I have been told all UD elements that Canon uses in their "L" lenses are Fluorite so are probably also used in the Canons. I tried it with mine but there are so many elements I lost count of the dots!

cheers,
Rick


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Rick]
      #3332956 - 09/14/09 09:13 AM

I see a window, a movable singlet, and then a doublet aboout midway inside the tube. No other dots indicating lens edges.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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Wes James
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Rick]
      #3332961 - 09/14/09 09:16 AM

This is almost starting to sound like a project doable by the advanced ATM'er... start off with a good pair of bino's, and swap off the tubes/objectives... Which, I suppose- is not that far off from what Glen is doing... though his goals seem to be more low powered widefield than the TAK's
I guess that was the basis of the William Optics 22x70 binoculars. They were a good company to undertake a project like that, it seems to me. Would be nice if they could do some tweaks on it to bring it on par with the TAK's.
Wes


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Rick
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: EdZ]
      #3332991 - 09/14/09 09:37 AM

Quote:

I see a window, a movable singlet, and then a doublet aboout midway inside the tube. No other dots indicating lens edges.

edz




Ok, I looked it up. It is supposed to be 4 elements in 3 groups followed by the variangle prism. But Canon may be counting the window as an element too. I think the UD lens is the first element in the doublet. My laser seems to be MIA so I can't check.

Rick


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Wes James]
      #3333967 - 09/14/09 07:36 PM

Wes,
Don't forget that my Mk II right angle can swap between the 50mm f/3.3 and 60mm f/4.5 objectives. The latter, when used with the 13mm Ethos, delivers 21X, but the field is no keyhole-like 2.1 deg., but rather 4.7 deg. And the illumination is nearly 100% right to the edge of that huge field, too.

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery (mostly DIY stuff)

Simple minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas. - Hyman Rickover


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Wes James
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #3334044 - 09/14/09 08:28 PM

Glen-
You're making me drool!
Wes


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Fomalhaut
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Gordon Rayner]
      #3335191 - 09/15/09 12:45 PM

Quote:


One wonders if the objectives were respaced (only ?, or radii and/or spacings changed) to work with the prisms, if they originated as part of a prismless refractor? If one has used fluorite, it seems that the prism effects must have been at least considered in the hybridization.






Not necessarily at this (for anstronomical objectives) relatively low magnification.

Chris

--------------------
Currently:
Tak FS-60c
Tak FCT-100/640 on Tak EM-10
Tak Mewlon-180 exchangeable on same
IntesMicro-M500
Zeiss 7X42-T*P-Dialyt
Nikon 18x70 Binoculars with circular eyecups
Coronado Maxscope 40



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edwincjones
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: medinabrit]
      #3336674 - 09/16/09 05:28 AM

Quote:

Ive been looking for the Exceeds for a couple of years with no luck.
I have the Saturn 2 & the pleides .
Seems like i,ll never get the Exceeds.




One is for sale on AM now with extra eps
edj

--------------------

n w arkansas









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CESDewar
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: medinabrit]
      #3339032 - 09/17/09 09:31 AM

Quote:

Ive been looking for the Exceeds for a couple of years with no luck.
I have the Saturn 2 & the pleides.




I had both the Exceeds and the Pleiades at the same time, and there wasn't a huge difference in normal observing (but then again the Exceeds aren't that much larger/heavier and have another 17mm of aperture). The optics on the Pleiades were sharper than the Exceeds and that's after having two pairs of the Exceeds to look at and picking the sharper ones.

But the Tak's are in a different class optically with not just slightly sharper optics - they are absolutely razor sharp and looking at something like the Trapezium in the Tak's at 22x60 vs. 30x77 in the Exceeds immediately shows the vast superiority of the Tak optics.

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Solar B
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Sgt]
      #3382743 - 10/10/09 07:51 PM

Quote:

Calcium fluorite crystal elements. I think these were the same objective elements as used in the Tak FC60 mini refractors.

I think the Prominar version of the Kowa Highlander 82mm binoculars also have true CaF2 crystal elements.

These 2 are the only ones AFAIK.




So are the Highlanders and the Taks the only two binos with
real fluorite CaF2 objectives? i find that hard to believe,
reading about a current Zeiss model they make reference to fluorite but may not be the real McCoy.


Brian

--------------------
" Gentlemen only ever use Refractors "


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milt
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Re: Takahashi 22 x 60 new [Re: Solar B]
      #3382865 - 10/10/09 09:35 PM

Quote:

a current Zeiss model they make reference to fluorite but may not be the real McCoy




Correct. I called Zeiss about their FL models a few years ago and was told they did not use CaF2 crystal. However, Zeiss has used it in the past in their APQ telescopes.

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Clear skies, Milt


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