Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page
   · Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article   

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User

Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

Pages: 1
mypontiac
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to see? new
      #3324829 - 09/09/09 08:07 PM

Hello folks,

After reading the post on the Veil Nebula and the comments about the contrast with the OIII filter, I decided to order the Lumicon filters.

Can you recommend some objects that will be complimented with this filter?

I have a NP-101 4" refractor and 11" SCT with various EPs.


Thanks,

Sean

Edited by mypontiac (09/09/09 08:43 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: mypontiac]
      #3324912 - 09/09/09 08:51 PM

Well , for winter your deepsky mecca with an OIII is M-42- IT is already i'm sure, but it GROWS with an OIII. These faint tendrils and veils just extend beyond what your normal vis gets you. I hear an HBeta is good in parts in this area too.

M97 the owl nebula is excellent. Essentially - evbery planetary nebula you ever observed really "pops" with an OIII. The Eskimo nebulas - excellent example. M57 the classic example. Planeteries @heart@ OIII's. And true to Lumicons advertisements, YOU CAN observe planeteries INVISIBLE without - but you have to go at your vis threshold naturally.

Emission nebula.... be careful here. Some are reflection, others are hydrogen beta. The last two wont do anything in an OIII. Itll just dim out. IT'll doisappoint in spades if you arent observing the right stuff.

Waitll you see M42 pop.

The veil nebula is my summertime "M-42". Well that an M8, but the Veil I like more simply because its splattered all over the heavens and the elevation is about at the zenith so my dark sky gets its best. Atleast in CT - even in the darkest sky, the OIII still goes the distance.

What else.... galaxies are lousy, THOUGH, Im curious to know if the HII regions in M33 pop with an OIII.

Just go with emission and planetary.

Try M33's HII regions.... see if they pop. Ill bet they do. Im a little embaressed i never tried myself!!

Pete

--------------------


Edited by azure1961p (09/09/09 08:53 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mypontiac
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: azure1961p]
      #3325068 - 09/09/09 10:21 PM

Thanks Pete!!!

I will give those a try.

I just added an upper deck away from my neighbor's pesky lights!

My view will be to the north and north east.

Will see what comes up in this area during my viewing time.

Thanks!

Sean


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
scopethis
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/30/08
Posts: 636
Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: mypontiac]
      #3325132 - 09/09/09 10:55 PM

Here are 4 easy targets. All are enhanced with the OIII filter. M57 (NGC6720/Ring Nebula))in Lyra, M27 (NGC 6853/Dumbbell Nebula) in Vul, NGC 7093 (Helix Nebula) in Aqr, and M17 (NGC 6618/Swan Nebula) in Sgr. Enjoy...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David Knisely
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8280
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to see? new [Re: mypontiac]
      #3325251 - 09/10/09 12:28 AM

Quote:

Hello folks,

After reading the post on the Veil Nebula and the comments about the contrast with the OIII filter, I decided to order the Lumicon filters.

Can you recommend some objects that will be complimented with this filter?

I have a NP-101 4" refractor and 11" SCT with various EPs.


Thanks,

Sean




Well, here is a listing of objects and filter combinations which might prove useful:

FILTER PERFORMANCE COMPARISONS FOR SOME COMMON NEBULAE

However, since not all the objects appear best in the OIII, I would also get a decent narrow-band filter like the DGM Optics NPB, Lumicon UHC, or Orion Ultrablock. Then, you would have all the bases covered. For OIII starters, many planetary nebulae are helped by the OIII, and there are a few objects like the Veil and North America nebulae which also look best in the OIII filter. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tim L
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/17/08
Posts: 564
Loc: Austin, TX
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to see? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #3325346 - 09/10/09 02:19 AM

Hey Sean,

Nice to see another observer from Austin!

I just got an O-III, and I really was impressed with the improvements to the Lagoon.

Read David's article--it's tops.

--------------------
Tim

Zhumell Z10 dob
Meade 60mm refractor
Zhumell 1.25" eyepiece and filter kit
Zhumell sky-glow, UHC, and OIII filters


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tony Flanders
Post Laureate


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: azure1961p]
      #3325532 - 09/10/09 07:55 AM

Quote:

I'm curious to know if the HII regions in M33 pop with an OIII.




So you would think. But I've never had much luck using on O-III filter on M33 with my 12.5-inch scope -- nor on M101, whose emission areas are even more prominent than M33's.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David Knisely
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8280
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: azure1961p]
      #3326209 - 09/10/09 02:41 PM

azure1961 posted:

Quote:

Try M33's HII regions.... see if they pop. Ill bet they do. Im a little embaressed i never tried myself!!




Well, they don't in the way that planetary nebulae tend to do when the OIII is used, but the HII regions are somewhat enhanced. I use the NPB filter on M33, and while it does help some of the emission objects, they don't stand out enormously better than they do without a filter. The problem is that some of the light from the some of the knots also is from stars in the region, so when you exclude some of that light using a filter, the filter ends up not helping as much as you might think. NGC 604 is the main one in M33 which responds most to filtration, although even it is quite visible even without the OIII. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: David Knisely]
      #3326604 - 09/10/09 06:28 PM

Thanks Dave! It is good he asked - looking at the wrong nebula with those effective and expensive nebula can really give the wrong impression. I recall looking at a couple of sour notes [reflection neb but not realizing they were at the time] with my OIII. Once I got the diet coreected though it was a terrific experience.

You know what makes me have a little quiet regret whenever i use them? That they simply dont have as effective a filter for galaxies. Imagine seeing M51 contrast like M57 does with the right filter.

Pete

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dpwoos
sage


Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 218
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: mypontiac]
      #3326829 - 09/10/09 08:33 PM

We greatly enjoy our UHC and OIII filters, and use them often. However, my sons, other club members and I don't always agree on which filter works best on a target, or even whether or not to use any filter. My younger son likes the looks of the Swan Nebula in our 10" dob unfiltered, and that is that. Most of us like M57 unfiltered, at least in the 10". So, just because you have a filter doesn't mean that you will prefer it on every applicable target.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mypontiac
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1080
Loc: Austin, Tx.
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: dpwoos]
      #3326994 - 09/10/09 10:35 PM

Thanks for all the advise guys!!!

David, that info will be very helpful.

Tim, are you in AAS?

Sean


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David Knisely
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8280
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: dpwoos]
      #3327160 - 09/11/09 12:22 AM

Quote:

We greatly enjoy our UHC and OIII filters, and use them often. However, my sons, other club members and I don't always agree on which filter works best on a target, or even whether or not to use any filter. My younger son likes the looks of the Swan Nebula in our 10" dob unfiltered, and that is that. Most of us like M57 unfiltered, at least in the 10". So, just because you have a filter doesn't mean that you will prefer it on every applicable target.




I often won't use a filter on M57 unless I am looking for the faint outer shell that appears around the outer edges of the main ring. On the Swan, the thing just gets much larger in the UHC or NPB filters, with the faint outer loop-like extension on the northeast side of the main swan portion appearing much more easily than without a filter. With the OIII, the contrast goes up noticeably, with a large dark zone appearing just northwest of the swan's neck and chest area. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dpwoos
sage


Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 218
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: David Knisely]
      #3327192 - 09/11/09 12:39 AM

I agree with you that one sees a lot more of M17 with a filter. However, I think that my son prefers it unfiltered for aesthetic reasons - perhaps it looks more like a Swan! Related to this, Dan MacShane of DGM Optical visited with our club at Stellafane, and his nebula filter in our 14" dob was very, very nice on M17, and was better optically than my UHC. He thought that my UHC was a sandwich of two pieces of glass, causing doubling of stars, etc. He said that modern coatings are very durable, and that sandwiching them for protection is not necessary.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: dpwoos]
      #3328643 - 09/11/09 07:58 PM

Yikes I love the way the background sitsdown and M57 comes out with an OIII. I cant say it puts detail IN the ring, but it has this nice contrast effect thats pleasing to me. But to each there own.

Dont forget I see peach in 6543 - tho thats at 300x. Not that the mag makes my hallucination any better.


Pete

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
David Knisely
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8280
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: azure1961p]
      #3329112 - 09/12/09 01:49 AM

Quote:

Yikes I love the way the background sitsdown and M57 comes out with an OIII. I cant say it puts detail IN the ring, but it has this nice contrast effect thats pleasing to me. But to each there own.

Dont forget I see peach in 6543 - tho thats at 300x. Not that the mag makes my hallucination any better.


Pete




Well, if you are using one of the current batch of Lumicon OIII filters and you see "peach" in NGC 6543, then it is definitely some kind of illusion. That filter has about a 110 angstrom wide bandwidth centered in the blue-green part of the spectrum, so any "peach" color may be in your head rather than from your eyes. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: David Knisely]
      #3329596 - 09/12/09 11:02 AM

Oh I wasnt trying to validate it. I knew it was nutty when i saw it. Just offering the differences in individual observations. The peach thing... nahhh, it was grey, it was green but peach stood out.. Just retinal/brain noise and i was filling in a color i couldnt make. Low powers different. At 300x and over, i utterly halucinate it.

My lumicons are vintage 96' by the way. Gotta love that red-leak. Its not the redleak tho...really i kno spurious color when i see it. Truth in the pudding was the lower mag
color.

Peach - hey its not a bad color to halucinate!!!

Pete

--------------------


Edited by azure1961p (09/12/09 11:08 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
wfj
sage
*****

Reged: 01/10/08
Posts: 259
Loc: California, Santa Cruz County
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: azure1961p]
      #3330912 - 09/13/09 02:26 AM

Pete,
Not a hallucination. False color perception is an illusion that happens all the time. Your mind can "invent" colors in a monochrome environment like that of a single band filter.

Most likely you were perceiving gray scale as color. You might attempt to correlate from looking at a CCD narrowband image the intensity profile and look at the object repeatedly. It would not surprise me if in doing so it sometimes changed color or went to monochrome.

Afterimages of bright lights also cause false color illusions. Also colors of objects under sodium lights are another example. Various theories are present over how/why this happens.

This is also why I'm wary of DSO color reports. Its hard to prove what color you see in dim objects as true. Which isn't to say you aren't seeing color - you may very well be. The way I'm more certain is when I can see nearby stars where I know spectral type/temperature. Also, the eye can (and does do) relative color, so if too many objects are yellow, the eye can "think" they are white and affect color cast.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: wfj]
      #3331325 - 09/13/09 11:03 AM

Agreed!

Pete

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
*****

Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 12223
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se new [Re: wfj]
      #3331736 - 09/13/09 03:41 PM

Quote:

Pete,
Not a hallucination. False color perception is an illusion that happens all the time. Your mind can "invent" colors in a monochrome environment like that of a single band filter.

Most likely you were perceiving gray scale as color. You might attempt to correlate from looking at a CCD narrowband image the intensity profile and look at the object repeatedly. It would not surprise me if in doing so it sometimes changed color or went to monochrome.

Afterimages of bright lights also cause false color illusions. Also colors of objects under sodium lights are another example. Various theories are present over how/why this happens.

This is also why I'm wary of DSO color reports. Its hard to prove what color you see in dim objects as true. Which isn't to say you aren't seeing color - you may very well be. The way I'm more certain is when I can see nearby stars where I know spectral type/temperature. Also, the eye can (and does do) relative color, so if too many objects are yellow, the eye can "think" they are white and affect color cast.



We're in agreement. Colors can reveal a shared illusion.
Some colors are seen by all observers and seem to be enhanced by using larger scopes. Those colors are likely to be real. For instance, I have seen, in M42 and M43:
--a dusty rose color inside the "ring" on one side
--a peach-gray color inside the ring on the other side
--the Trapezium region as greenish-gray
--M43 as bluish-gray, definitely bluer than the Trap. region
--pink to faint red in the "arches" that lead away from the Trap. region
Are the colors real?
Well,
--I have seen them in scopes from 9 cm to 81 cm.
--The colors appear stronger and less subtle in larger scopes
--The colors are more apparent with larger exit pupils
--The colors match the tints seen in color photographs.
--The colors are easiest without a filter of any kind.
--The blue-green colors near the center are MORE apparent with a nebula filter, but the other colors seem to disappear.
--Where I observe, this nebula, in a 12.5" scope, will damage your night vision due to its brightness, so there is a high likelihood of mesopic vision when viewing the nebula--especially at lower magnifications.
--Last, other viewers see the same colors and agree on where they show.

Does this PROVE the colors are not an optical illusion common to the human eye/brain perceptual instrument? No. But they certainly indicate that color descriptions have some validity in the commonality of perception in human observers. That is, if I say there is a pink tint, and you also see a pink tint, then another viewer may see the same pink tint. Even if the colors are an optical illusion, if we all see the same thing then we have a common shared experience about which we can ponder.

As to using an O-III filter on a nebula where the UHC bandwidth may show more nebula, David would agree there is some validity in doing so. Small knots and details that are somewhat submerged in bright nebulosity come to the forefront, and seeing these details can give you a better idea of structure. For example: NGC6888 in Cygnus. The UHC shows it very well, and shows a large extent of nebulosity. The striations and "ropy waves" of nebulosity within the nebula are more visible, however, with an O-III filter. Both filters show different aspects, and studying the nebula with both reveals different aspects.

As to M17, on a particularly clear and transparent night not many months ago, I was studying M17 with a new O-III filter (over 97% transmission at both 496 and 501nm), and noticed the sky around M17 had a "ropy" character as if there were waves of nebulosity filling the field of view, well outside the central nebulosity (which looked like a large oval with the "Swan" only a tiny part). I followed this ropy nebulosity a few fields of view until another bright nebula swan into the field of view. It was M16!. For the one and only time in my life I had visually seen that M16 and M17 are merely bright points in the same nebula. Would I have seen that with a UHC filter? I'm not sure. But following the nebula where it leads can be very revealing.

For instance, M42/M43, and NGC1977 can be seen to be bright parts of the same nebula. M8 can be seen to be part of the same nebula as M20, connected by NGC 6526.

Good filters can be wonderful tools for investigating nebulae.

--------------------
Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov, Fujinon Binos
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/17/09
Posts: 731
Re: Getting my first OIII Filter. What DSOs to se [Re: Starman1]
      #3332160 - 09/13/09 08:42 PM


I had never seen nebula joined through fainter extending nebula until the advent of digital astro-imaging in the hands of Tony and Daphne Mount. Then it was like someone turned on the light in the room and this higher truth about the nature of these clouds leapt out at me. Reading about it was one thing, seeing an amateur image it was an entirely different experience.

The fact that you witnessed it firsthand is amazing. You've got to be pleased with that accomplishment. Thats really over the top. I cant say Ive ever seen any enjoining gases in Connecticut thru my 8. But, good things can still be had.

Bravo for the ob!

Pete

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Extra information
3 registered and 3 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Olivier Biot 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 456

Jump to

CN Forums Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics