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BYoesle
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3326256 - 09/10/09 03:09 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

Quote:

I love the idea of trimming brightness with a polarizer. But you can't rotate a binohead like you can an eyepiece (not unless your eyes move around in your head). With aggressive tube shortening you *could* use double diagonals (sort of like a bent refractor), and rotate the wedge with respect to the other diagonal. But you might find that the correct rotation still left the binohead in an uncomfortable position.

Something like Meade's variable polarizer (with the fixed element removed) might work better, but it's 1.25"...

Any other ideas?





Hi Jeff,

Since variable polarizers use two optically identical polarizers, typically both in threaded cells that will fit a standard threaded 1.25 inch eyepiece barrel, for my binoviewing I just add them individually to each eyepiece and rotate the eyepieces to matching brightness levels (very easy to do). This is a lot less hassel, and no extra stuff to buy...

Note the internal threads on the "fixed" polarizer on the left to accept the threaded rotating element on the right -- they are all identical to the standard 1.25 filter thread, and therefore each will fit a standard 1.25 inch eyepiece.

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



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Doug D.
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3326281 - 09/10/09 03:26 PM

Hmmm, sounds like a bit to think about Jeff... Once we are done with this thread it may end up as "everything you ever wanted to know about the Baader wedge and T2 system"!

Just to clarify though - are you talking about Glasspath compensators when you say OCS? I also have an idea about the polarizer issue you raise with the binoviewers but I need to try it out first to see if I'm remembering the various bits properly. I have the T2 prism and can also check if the adapters you refer to are the same..

--------------------

Hooville

AP 105EDF f/6 Traveler; AP 140 EDF StarFire f/7.5; TV 76 f/6.3 with Solarscope SF70 filter; Solarscope Solarview 50; Coronado CaK 70; Orion XT-10; Baader Mk V & ZAO II's; Half-Hitch Mk II; Astrotrac TT320X, pier & wedge; AP Mach1GTO; PGR Flea 2


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Jeff Young
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Doug D.]
      #3326341 - 09/10/09 04:13 PM

Bob --

I thought about that, but I thought it'd be hard to keep both eyes at the same brightness. But perhaps that's not really an issue in practice?

Doug --

Yeah, sorry about the terminology switch. For OCS read glasspath compensator.

I checked my T2 system chart, and it does list the threaded ring separately. It's part number T2-03, which is different from your T2-27.

T2-03 is a step-up ring (from M36,4 to T2), while T2-27 is a step-down ring (from UNC2" to T2). So the question is, does the step-down ring have internal threads (M34) for the glasspath compensator, or is it the right diameter (38mm) for the teflon centering ring that comes with the glasspath compensator? The chart only list the filter threads (M48) on the input side.

I note there's also T2-28, which goes from UNC2" to T-2, but doesn't have the lip in between. This one doesn't indicate if its internally threaded on either side.

-- Jeff.

--------------------
Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium                                       Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD                       Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO                        Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO


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Wes James
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3326381 - 09/10/09 04:36 PM

Quote:

OCS read glasspath compensator... T2 system chart... part number T2-03, which is different from your T2-27. T2-03 is a step-up ring (from M36,4 to T2), while T2-27 is a step-down ring (from UNC2" to T2). So the question is, does the step-down ring have internal threads (M34) for the glasspath compensator, or is it the right diameter (38mm) for the teflon centering ring that comes with the glasspath compensator? The chart only list the filter threads (M48) on the input side.... there's also T2-28, which goes from UNC2" to T-2, but doesn't have the lip in between. This one doesn't indicate if its internally threaded on either side.





AARRRRRRGHHHHH!!!!!!
ENOUGH!!!!!

Wes


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BYoesle
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Wes James]
      #3326788 - 09/10/09 08:11 PM Attachment (9 downloads)

Holy Camolee!

AARRRRRRGHHHHH!!!!!! Is right!

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



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BYoesle
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3326795 - 09/10/09 08:15 PM

Quote:

Bob --

I thought about that, but I thought it'd be hard to keep both eyes at the same brightness. But perhaps that's not really an issue in practice?





Actually Jeff, you may find, as I have, that the brightness sensitivity of your eyes may vary. While not as bad as the pirate above, my right eye is not as sensitive to light as my left, and the ability to individually adjust / fine-tune the brightness for each eye is of benefit for me when binoviewing. Even if both your eyes are equally sensitive, getting the brightness level equal with two polarizers is very easy - try it. Adjust the brightness for your dominant eye first, then your non-dominant eye.

I also suspect that when I observed the sun for years while a kid through a cheap eyepiece-mounted welders-glass type filter some IR or UV leaked through, and my right eye is about a magnitude less sensitive than my left (non-dominant) eye. Another reason I'm Mr. Overkill whe it comes to IR/UV protection...

--------------------
Bob Yoesle

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars...
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Desiderata



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TONGKW
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Reged: 01/16/07
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: BYoesle]
      #3326937 - 09/10/09 09:58 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

When I heard the Baader Herschel wedge may not come to focus I bought the cheaper 1.25” Intes Herschel wedge instead with the mandatory B & W ND3 and polarizing filters. The Vixen 8-24 mm zoom eyepiece is very handy as the magnification can be adjusted immediately.

K W TONG
C8+CG-5GT, TSA102+HEQ5 PRO, MK67+Voyager, NexStar 6SE, C5+Mizar K, WO ZS80FD+Kenko NES, Megrez 72FD+Kenko KDS, Mini Borg 50, PST


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TONGKW
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: TONGKW]
      #3326941 - 09/10/09 10:01 PM Attachment (8 downloads)

Unfortunately many of my fellow club members are skeptical as to whether the 100,000:1 reduction would equally apply to the UV and IR and as a result they are a bit reluctant to view the sun as it is. After failing concrete information to confirm and so as to be on the safe side I add a Baader UV/IR cut filter to the mandatory ND3 and polarizing filters. Now all club members are happy to view the sun with the additional UV/IR filter on.

K W TONG
C8+CG-5GT, TSA102+HEQ5 PRO, MK67+Voyager, NexStar 6SE, C5+Mizar K, WO ZS80FD+Kenko NES, Megrez 72FD+Kenko KDS, Mini Borg 50, PST


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Keith Howlett
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: TONGKW]
      #3327247 - 09/11/09 01:53 AM

In case anyone didn't see them, the UV/IR issues are already comprehensively covered in these threads from last year:

UV/IR Intensity Levels In A Herschel Wedge


Herschel Safety Wedge - Decent?


Cheers,

Keith


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Jeff Young
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: BYoesle]
      #3327356 - 09/11/09 04:12 AM

Quote:

Actually Jeff, you may find, as I have, that the brightness sensitivity of your eyes may vary. While not as bad as the pirate above, my right eye is not as sensitive to light as my left, and the ability to individually adjust / fine-tune the brightness for each eye is of benefit for me when binoviewing. Even if both your eyes are equally sensitive, getting the brightness level equal with two polarizers is very easy - try it. Adjust the brightness for your dominant eye first, then your non-dominant eye.

I also suspect that when I observed the sun for years while a kid through a cheap eyepiece-mounted welders-glass type filter some IR or UV leaked through, and my right eye is about a magnitude less sensitive than my left (non-dominant) eye. Another reason I'm Mr. Overkill whe it comes to IR/UV protection...




Cool, thanks Bob. I'll give it a go.

Someone mentioned earlier that their Newt secondary also polarized light. Is that true for any diagonal? In other words, could I also try this trick to adjust the brightness of h-alpha?

-- Jeff.

--------------------
Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium                                       Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD                       Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO                        Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO


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Keith Howlett
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3327554 - 09/11/09 08:59 AM

Jeff,

It works with reflections from non-metallic surfaces. (The secondary mirror in the solar Newtonian telescope above does not have a reflective coating.)

Cheers,

Keith


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DAVIDG
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Keith Howlett]
      #3327658 - 09/11/09 10:06 AM

The etalon in a H-alpha 'scope polarizers the light also, so using a polarizing filter in the eyepiece works well to adjust the brightness and improve the contrast. I use one all the time on my PST.
Any time you have a reflection off of bare glass the light has some level of polarization. The closer the angle of reflection is to the Brewster angle the higher the level of polarization. For crown glass the Brewester angle is about 57 degrees. Antique solar prisms use two surfaces angled at the Brewster angle and one rotates one prism with respect to the other to cross polarize the light and dim the image. With both surfaces at the Brewster angle, the light is fully polarized and one can fully dim the image to full blackness.

- Dave

--------------------
Homemade 'scopes 8"f/7,6" f/5", 6"f/4, 4.25" Schief. 60mm Coronagraph,60mm H-alpha system, 4.25" White-light Solar Newtonian,solar spectroscope, 4.5" f/16 Schupmann Medial refractor, 14 Stellafane awards 7 in optics

Engineering = Taking what you have and making what you need.


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Jeff B
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3327702 - 09/11/09 10:27 AM

So what's the optical path length of the wedge with the 2" adapter? As my refractors have been designed to have 2" of additional in travel with my Denk binoviewers and my AP diagonal, I've a bit of extra room to play with. Certainly it should not be an issue for use without the binos.

Jeff


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Jeff Young
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff B]
      #3327835 - 09/11/09 11:40 AM

Thanks, Dave and Keith.

Jeff --

Baader quotes 128mm for the Herschel wedge (to the top of the 2" holder). Your AP diagonal has a path length of 104mm, so the Baader will consume nearly an inch more backfocus. Given your 2" of backfocus, you should be fine even with the binos.

-- Jeff.

--------------------
Nikon 18x70s / UA Millennium                                       Colorado:
Solarscope SF70 / TV Pronto / AP400QMD                       Coronado SolarMax40 DS / Bogen 055+3130
APM MC1610 / Tak FC-100 / AP1200GTO                        Tak Mewlon 250 / AP600EGTO


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colinsk
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: DAVIDG]
      #3327920 - 09/11/09 12:27 PM

Quote:

The etalon in a H-alpha 'scope polarizers the light also, so using a polarizing filter in the eyepiece works well to adjust the brightness and improve the contrast. I use one all the time on my PST.
Any time you have a reflection off of bare glass the light has some level of polarization. The closer the angle of reflection is to the Brewster angle the higher the level of polarization. For crown glass the Brewester angle is about 57 degrees. Antique solar prisms use two surfaces angled at the Brewster angle and one rotates one prism with respect to the other to cross polarize the light and dim the image. With both surfaces at the Brewster angle, the light is fully polarized and one can fully dim the image to full blackness.

- Dave




Since the light is almost normal to the etalon I would be surprised if there was much polarization off the etalon. Perhaps the polarization is coming from the pentaprism?

--------------------
Mahalo,
Colin Kaminski

Coulter 10.1" Dobsonian
TV-76/Baader Film White Light
LS60T/DS50/FT/BF1200
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AT Voyager


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Jeff B
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Jeff Young]
      #3328081 - 09/11/09 01:57 PM

Thanks man!

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Keith Howlett
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: BYoesle]
      #3332847 - 09/14/09 07:39 AM

Big thanks from me to Doug and Bob!

I added the Baader adapters shown in Doug's photos and I now have a quick and convenient coupling with my binoviewers that has freed up a lot of back focus. (The photos helped enormously when I was trying to make some sense of the Baader parts chart.)

I was also able use Bob's idea to fit three filters into a space made for two by adding my Baader Solar Continuum filter to the UV/IR filter barrel using the UV/IR retaining ring as a spacer. There was comfortably enough room to fit the retaining ring from the Continuum filter into the remaining thread.

I'm very pleased with these neat solutions.

Many thanks,

Keith


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Keith Howlett
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? new [Re: Keith Howlett]
      #3332867 - 09/14/09 08:00 AM

...and back on topic for the OP. I bought my Baader Herschel Wedge several years ago with the ND=3.0 'visual' filter and the three 'photographic' filters (1.8, 0.9 and 0.6).

I did put a webcam on the wedge a couple of times and it worked fine with the 'visual' filter. I eventually moved the photographic filters to my binoviewer case for visual use on the moon.

Cheers,

Keith


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Doug D.
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Re: Baader Herschel Wedge: Visual or Photographic? [Re: Keith Howlett]
      #3333342 - 09/14/09 01:11 PM

Glad it worked out Keith and happy to have helped. I plan to use Bob's idea as well when I feel the need arises.

--------------------

Hooville

AP 105EDF f/6 Traveler; AP 140 EDF StarFire f/7.5; TV 76 f/6.3 with Solarscope SF70 filter; Solarscope Solarview 50; Coronado CaK 70; Orion XT-10; Baader Mk V & ZAO II's; Half-Hitch Mk II; Astrotrac TT320X, pier & wedge; AP Mach1GTO; PGR Flea 2


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