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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1934
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It took a year, but I finally got around to purchasing the Vixen Foresta 7x50 porro CF. I just opened the box and looked across the backyard. WOW!
I really want to compare the Vixen Foresta to my Fujinon 7x50 IF. I ordered the Vixen because I wanted a second 7x50 (with center focus) for low light nature observing. The initial out-of-the-box sensation tells me the Vixen will certainly do the job.
In the days and weeks ahead I will post a few comments about my nontechnical comparison of the Vixen Foresta porro CF 7x50 with the Fujinon FMT-SX porro IF 7x50. It probably will not be the stuff of EdZ's dreams, but I will try to approach the comparison from the perspective of a leisurely twilight forest observer, as well as a back yard night sky observer.
In the meantime, as I prepare my subjective comparison--and believe me the comparison will be subjective and personal--I suggest you go to EdZ's technical review of Vixen Foresta porro CF 7x50 , which is, as to be expected, one of the Internet's finest.
Please let me know if there are some specific nontechnical comparisons you want to see reported. I make no promises. But if I can pull it off, I will report how these two 7x50s stack up. Perhaps you have personal observations about your favorite 7x50 that you want to add to this thread. Please feel welcome to post your observations.
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 15350
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Your subjective comparison of the low light (dusky ish) difference in contrast. Comments on contrast are always subjective as it is very difficult for anyone to objectively measure it. Your perceptions of views would be appreciated.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Mary
sage
Reged: 01/29/08
Posts: 224
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I have a pair of the 7x50 Vixen Forestas and I absolutely adore them! They are an incredibly close second to my 8x42 Leica Ultravids. I really look forward to your reviews!
Mary
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1347
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I'm looking forward to your impressions Bob.
A triplet objective 7x50 Porro, now that's different. Sub 2 lbs, and center focus too, I thought 7x50s were supposed to hurt. Also, this is a rather costly porro, at around $300. That's just the going rate for a used FMT.
Mary's comparison is interesting, because my 8x42 Leica Trinovid, lovely and handy glass though it be, is certainly not a very close second to my 7x50 FMT, as far as pure optical performance goes. But the Ultravid is better than the older Trinovid, by all accounts. Also, EdZ gave his Vixen high marks, but didn't really shoot it out with his Prostar or WO, and doesn't own the Fujinon, as far as I know.
So, it is impossible, however hard I strain my brain, for me to deduce from this round robin/smorsgabord of information and comparisons, whether or not the Foresta will equal or beat the Fujinon. Bob, you may well be the first person in the entire universe to make this crucial comparo. The four or five of us 7x50 fans in that universe are on the edge of our seats, with beer and popcorn. Get on with it man. This ought to be good.
Ron
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Mary
sage
Reged: 01/29/08
Posts: 224
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Ron, I just love your post! I am also fortunate to have a pair of Fuji 10x70's in my arsenal, and though bigger than the 7x50 Fuji's, I have no doubts that the 7x50 Fujis are also outstanding. The great thing about the Leica 8x42 Utravids is that they are a roof and therefore, very easy to hold for long periods of time. The Vixen Foresta 7x50's are also very light and easy to hold. I once held a smaller pair of Fuji's but I'm not sure if they were the 7x50 pair, but they did seem to be heavy for their size, but still felt good in the hands.
I think anyone who has had the chance to look thru the Vixen Foresta 7x50 has really been impressed with it, especially at the price that it is. When I bought mine, they were $279 and I'm not sure if the price has gone up since then. Really a great bino for not a whole lot of money.
Mary
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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 3634
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Quote:
I ordered the Vixen because I wanted a second 7x50 (with center focus) for low light nature observing.
Strong point. I considered once a Fujinon 10x50 as a future purchase. But because of the IF i am not so sure anymore despite the great optics.... I consider the IF on my 15x70 a good thing but on smaller bino's i am not so sure....
-------------------- Freddy Meiresonne
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
22x85 Helios Apollo (=GO SS)
15x70 TS Marine (=Obie Ultra)
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50,8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10 XW, N9T6, Ultrascopic 7.5, TV2, BGO 12.5 and 9 mm
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1934
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Tonight at twilight, I used the Vixen Foresta porro CF 7x50 to count antler points on deer visiting my backyard. When I ordered the Vixen 7x50s, I went to the local Southern States feed store and purchased a 40-lb bag of Imperial Whitetail Results deer feed. Every evening at sunset I have been dispensing four cups of deer feed (in two mounds) along the tree line behind my house. And every morning the deer feed has been gone. Tonight I observed five bucks--two 6-pointers, two 4-pointers, and one two-pointer (22 points total). No does or fawns. Guess who ate first?
This is one of the tasks the Vixen 7x50 was made to do quite well. The bright, clear, resolute view made counting antler points easy. The distance to the tree line is 30 yards. I also counted points as the band of bucks roamed a distance of 150 yards. Beyond 150 yards, the little points of the 2-pointer were not discernable in the Vixen 7x50. The slow (i.e., fine) center focus is crucial to this type of observing. The bucks move their heads frequently as they eat and forage, requiring constant focus adjustment as the points are counted. I did not use the Fujinon IF 7x50 on this twilight to count points. The Fujinon's individual focusing has made this an arduous activity in the past.
***Counting points at distances greater than 150 yards will require more magnification, such as a 15x binocular or scope.
*****Feeding deer on your own property (rural or urban) is legal in the state of Kentucky. Please check the wildlife laws in your state and community before feeding deer. This activity may not be legal in some states and communities.
. . .
Last night I did a small comparison of the Vixen with the Fujinon to observe three night sky views: Altair / Tarazed star path (Aquila)
Coathanger asterism (Vulpecula)
Circle of stars around Sadr (Cygnus). In all three views, the Fujinon FMT-SX IF 7x50 outperformed the Vixen Foresta CF 7x50. The views in the Vixen were just not as prominent as in the Fujinon. Specifically, the stars seen in the Vixen did not appear as large or shine as brightly as in the Fujinon.
The view of the Coathanger may explain. In the Vixen 7x50, star HD 182293 in the Coathanger asterism (Vulpecula), the color star on the right end (magnitude 7.1, color K-1) was very faint; observable, but faint. Star HD 182293 was more prominent in the Fujinon 7x50; still faint, but not near as faint as in the Vixen.
The same results occurred in the views of the Altair / Tarazed star path (Aquila) and the circle of stars around Sadr (Cygnus). Without a doubt, on this evening, to observe these three star patterns in the night sky, the Fujinon 7x50 takes the prize. I also noticed the Fujinon is more comfortable in my hands and against my face than the Vixen. Heavier and bigger, but more comfortable.
***My night sky is regularly 5.1 NELM. I did not measure limiting magnitude last night.
. . .
More comparisons to follow.
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3437
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Interesting report, Bob. I suppose the 7x50 Foresta's would work equally well for watching the family of hedgehogs that settled in my garden, if not for the 10 m close focus distance I found listed on a Vixen website. Is this accurate? Would you be able to recommend something similar with a close focus under 3-4 meters?
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD
APM 107mm f/6.5 on GR3-DX
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1347
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Mark, When reading of your desire for a close focusing Porro, something hit me that never had, at least not so exactly. I think the search for a conventional 50mm Porro that will focus that close is doomed by geometry.
My 7x50 Fujinon's objectives are about 130mm apart at my IPD of 67mm. An object 3.5m distant, centered between the barrels, lies 1.06 degrees off the optical axis of each barrel. When magnified by 7x, this angle becomes 7.4 degrees, twice the half angle of the apparent field. At 10m, it would just barely fit into the edge of both barrels' field. So, although it would seem simple enough for a manufacturer to make eyepieces which would back way out and focus that close, the view would be prohibitively bad, or at least one-eyed, so I doubt anybody does it.
Does this make sense? Ron
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1347
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Bob, Thanks for sharing the observation. Trading off a bit of optical punch for convenience is a compromise at the heart of binocular selection, and no great evil. I still hope you will give us some kind of daytime comparison between the two 7x50s, and comment on CA and edge of field sharpness.
With apologies to those who have already sat through this little spiel, I made my IFs much more convenient to focus, by attaching a flexible metal band across the tops of the eyepieces in a kind of belt drive. Not as slick as a CF knob, but it is enough improvement to make a very powerful and relatively handy low-light tool. HarperHyperDrive Ron
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1934
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I want to clarify a point in my Vixen / Fujinon comparison of the three star patterns I reported in my previous post. I am afraid if I do not make this clarification, some will think the Fujinon is better than the Vixen. And that is something I am not willing to report at this stage in the comparisons.
Let me explain.
I stated the Fujinon outperformed the Vixen in all three views. That is correct. However, that magnitude performance difference is not that significant, probably something like a 0.2 magnitude difference (and that is nothing but a guess). To quantify the difference in binocular limiting magnitude (BLM) of the two 7x50s, I probably should print some custom charts and do some comparison of BLM between the two models.
I will attempt to do so in the weeks ahead, so I can report with more certainty the BLM difference between the two 7x50s. But if the first comparison holds any weight, there is a BLM difference between the two models. But this difference is slight.
. . .
As I begin to sort out the potential comparisons between the two models, I am amazed at the possibilities. Many of the possibilities must reside in the focus arena, as focusing is probably one of the major distinctions between these two premium porro models. Another arena of comparisons must be done in the forest itself, under different leaf canopies and different light and time of day. A light meter would certainly help to quantify the light somewhat. I will see if I can borrow one for the upcoming comparisons. And still another comparison arena has to be ergonomics (weight, size, feel in the hands and against the face), as ergonomics is another distinction between these two models.
More to follow.
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1934
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Mark...
I did a very quick preliminary comparison on the close focus of the Vixen Foresta 7x50 porro CF. I positioned myself at a table on my patio and supported the Vixen by propping my elbows on the top of the table. Close focus came in at 5.3 meters (17.5 ft), which is similar to the advertised close focus of the Fujinon FMT-SX porro IF 7x50. This is preliminary, to be sure, and I definitely want to devote more time to testing close focus as this is certainly at variance with what Vixen is advertising (10 meters).
In the meantime, perhaps EdZ, Mary, and other Vixen owners can check the close focus of their instruments.
An alternative for viewing the hedgehog family in your garden may be something like the Leupold Katmai roof CF 6x32, with a close focus of 1.5 meters (4.9 ft). If you observe the hedgehogs during lowlight (because of the time of day or their reluctance to leave protective cover like a hedge or shrub line) it might be that magnification of the instrument may play second fiddle to close focus and brightness. Stepping down to a 6x instrument may be of some help. Of course, the Zeiss Victory roof CS 7x42 might also be a wonderful instrument to follow the antics of Mr. and Mrs. Hedgehog and their children.
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 15350
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I got the Foresta at 19 feet. edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1934
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Ron...
Thank you showing us a photo of the HarperHyperDrive. This invention certainly looks interesting.
I hope focus distinctions between the Vixen and Fujinon will be a major arena in comparing the two models. At this point, my opinion is that the Fujinon falls under the category of fast focus. As you know, the target to be observed and the time required to reach focus are two focus issues to consider. What is your opinion?
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3437
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Quote:
I think the search for a conventional 50mm Porro that will focus that close is doomed by geometry.
Thanks Ron, I had figured as much. That's why I didn't explicitly ask for a porro. Perhaps something like a 7x42 roof is the way to go. Do they make any 6x36?
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD
APM 107mm f/6.5 on GR3-DX
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 15350
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
To quantify the difference in binocular limiting magnitude (BLM) of the two 7x50s, I probably should print some custom charts and do some comparison of BLM between the two models.
Visit the "Best Of" threads in this forum. Follow the path to Limiting Magnitude and follow links to Charts for Cr399 (the Coathanger) and M45. You will find detailed charts marked up with star magnitudes up thru mag 12.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 2350
Loc: Rocky Mt. High Colorado
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Quote:
Do they make any 6x36?
http://www.opticswarehouse.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=prodimages%2Fdeben%2520binoculars%2Fblackwatchclassic.gif&cat=363
-------------------- Celestron Traveler 8x25 & Bell & Howell 8x40 JAPAN &
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II & Pentax 16x60 PCF WP &
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II & Orion 12x63 Mini Giant JAPAN &
SPECTRUM I 20x65 JAPAN & Orion 15x70 Little Giant II JAPAN &
Orion 20x70 Little Giant II JAPAN & Orion 16x80 Giant JAPAN &
Orion 30x80 MEGAView JAPAN & Barska 30x80 X-Trail &
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90
Ps.33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made:
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1347
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My estimate of the closest that a 50mm Porro could give a binocular view was really wrong! I came home and tried my 7x50, and although it will only focus down to about 9m, I can get the same small object in both fields, albeit very close to the edge and very much blurred, down to about 1 meter!
I found a mistake in my original calculation. I used the full objective spacing in calculating the off-axis angle, when half that value seems correct. But even that is not nearly enough to get down to what I can see. I'll keep puzzlin' over my goof, but I now think there is no good reason a Porro couldn't focus as close as any roof, if only the eyepieces would back out far enough. Sorry about that. Ron
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1934
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Tonight I dispense the deer feed at sunset (7:43 p.m.). However, I have to go out and do not return until 9:00 p.m. The deer feed is gone and it is quite dark outside (New Moon, heavy overcast sky). When I park my car, I go inside and grab both the Vixen and Fujinon to patrol the grounds for deer.
My first choice is the Vixen. There, 150 yards South of my driveway are three large deer eating acorns under a patch of oak trees. The Vixen reveals the shape and size of the three deer. However, there is not enough light to count antler points. I guess these are bucks--they certainly are large deer. About the size of the two 6-point deer from last night. No, I think tonight's deer might be larger?
I switch binoculars several times during the next hour. I am not using a tripod, but standing between my car and my wife's car, supporting the binoculars by propping my elbows on the car roof. The comparison tonight is to form an opinion as to which model is better, under extremely low light, at sweeping the landscape and providing a brighter view of the deer.
The landscape is pretty dark under the oak trees. With my naked eye, I can not detect any deer shapes nor can I make out the trunk of the oaks below the limb line (7-ft height above the ground). With both models of the 7x50s, the landscape comes alive. I easily discern the shape of the three deer, as well as the tree trunks and grass. But which model reveals more about the deer and their acorn dessert? It is close, very close. Not a lot of difference. However, I have to give the edge tonight to the Vixen Foresta under this cloudy moonless night.
The deer finish their acorns and walk 20 yards toward me and bed down in the grass. They are 130 yards to the South of my viewing location between the two cars. I continue to observe by switching the two models.
As time passes, I notice another important distinction between the two models. The Fujinon is designed for long vigils. The Vixen is designed for quality observation, but not conducive for long vigils. The Vixen has smaller barrels and the eyecups are hard. I find I keep pressing the Vixen deep into my eyesockets and the hard twist-up eyecups begin to ouch a little. Not so with the Fujinon. The soft rubber eyecups do not weary me at all. As time passes and I begin to switch between the models, I find myself looking forward to the large barrels and soft eyecups of the Fujinon, and dreading the hard twist-ups of the Vixen. The Fujinon design probably comes from a long line of military and marine applications where soldiers and sailors observe battle lines and coast lines for several hours at a time. Indeed, I feel part of this long vigil tradition as I observe the deer bedded in the grass.
. . .
Tonight's prize is a toss up. The Vixen gives slightly brighter views, easy focusing as the deer move around in the dark, and convenient views up to 15-20 minutes. The Fujinon, however, gives greater viewing comfort for longer observing periods (particularly when the binoculars are well supported).
For a quick walk around the grounds in low light or a binocular for a hike in a full-canopied forest, I definitely will reach for the Vixen. For a night of vigil, of observing a dark landscape, tree line, or horizon, for periods of time longer than 30 minutes and possibly as long as several hours, I will reach past the Vixen and grab the Fujinon.
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1347
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Bob, that is a stunning report, typical for you, but I have to say these things just get better.
I have an old Vixen made Celestron Ultima 10x50, and the coatings look every bit as dark as on my Fujinon 7x50. Maybe the new Vixen coatings are improved since about 1985. It is great news that such a lightweight binocular could do so well. I bet ease of use helped put it on the top.
I feel eyecup comfort rather acutely when I observe leaning back in my chair, with the bino weight mostly resting on my eye sockets, and know just what you're talking about. The Fujinon 7x50 is my best there, with it's big soft squishy rubber. I guess people mostly prefer the harder modern eyecups because they are easy to adjust, and plenty comfortable for most uses, but when soft rubber fits you right, it's the best. It is, however, colder to touch in winter, if not already warmed up, than the modern plastic material. Comfort for a long spell is really important for teasing out dim objects, splitting difficult doubles, and relaxed scanning. I give my chair a lot of credit too, for helping me get into the comfortable, relaxed state in which I can see my best.
Thanks again, and also thanks to EdZ and Mary, who also gave impressive endorsements of the Vixen. The case for it is getting mighty strong.
Ron
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