zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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I'm looking to expand beyond my 10x50 binoculars just a bit, wanting a little more light gathering capability. Also my budget keeps me right around 100 bucks.
I've decided upon the Oberwerk brand but not sure which of the two would work best for me. I know it has a lot to do with personal choice, but some outside thoughts on the matter would be helpful. 
I've also considered the 8x56 or the 12x60 options since the prices are the same, but not sure.
I'm going handheld only for now. Any thoughts on this brand and in these sizes would be greatly appreciated.
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3217
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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The 9x60 has a large 6.7mm exit pupil giving a very bright view, but you'd need to have eye pupils at least as large, and a quality dark sky, to take advantage of it.
Apart from the noticeably brighter view, the 9x60 won't likely show you much more than your 10x50. Neither will the 11x56 by the way. Depends a bit on which 10x50 you have. Perhaps something like the Nikon Action EX 12x50 would be a step up not far above your budget limit.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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Thanks for responding. 
We live in an area with pretty dark skies. My eyes are thankfully hanging in there, but not certain of my exact pupil size at this time.
I was under the impression that the larger aperture lenses would bring faint objects into view a bit more, maybe pull some more detail out of some fuzzies. Is there really hardly any difference between 50mm vs 60mm in terms of what you can see or does the mag play a more important role here?
I have a pair of Bushnell's Permafocus 10x50 binocs.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I'm looking to expand beyond my 10x50 binoculars just a bit, wanting a little more light gathering capability. Also my budget keeps me right around 100 bucks.
I've decided upon the Oberwerk brand but not sure which of the two would work best for me. I know it has a lot to do with personal choice, but some outside thoughts on the matter would be helpful. 
I've also considered the 8x56 or the 12x60 options since the prices are the same, but not sure.
In my opinion, none of those would be different enough from your 10x50s to warrant spending the money. The only ones even worth considering would be the 12x60s.
There's a formula due to Roy Bishop claiming that the "efficacy" of binoculars can be determined by multiplying the magnification by the aperture. That gives the followins Bishop indexes:
8x56 = 448 10x50 = 500 9x60 = 540 11x56 = 616 12x60 = 720
So the 8x56s would actually be a step backward, and the 9x60s would be only impercetibly better. Moreover, most people think that the Bishop index actually underrates the importance of magnification -- so even the 9x60s might very well show fewer stars and fewer faint fuzzies than the 10x50s.
I plan to compare my 10x50s against my (recently purchased) 12x60s tonight. I'll let you know what I think.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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94bamf
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 721
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
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I wouldn't bother with either of those choices. I have both 10x50's and 12x50's and notice little difference between the two. 15x70's are a real noticeable difference. Some people are comfortable hand holding them, some are not. No matter which size or power binoculars, they all benefit from being mounted in some way. While a few people might disagree with me, a popular binocular on the cheaper scale is some Celestron Skymaster 15x70's. If you look around right now you can get them for around $65-$75 shipped. I have a pair and I like them. A few people have had collimation problems from poor packaging or rough handling, etc. I am sure with most the retailers you wouldn't have a problem getting a good pair even if it takes sending a pair back. I have bought two pairs online, one for myself and one for my dad, they were both fine and arrived in perfect condition. My second recomendation would be to use the money you saved buying these binoculars to buy a tripod or monopod of some kind. Garrett Optical has some promising looking mono pods for $60-$70 that would hold those binoculars. With a steady view you will be amazed at what you can see. If a Monopod isn't your thing, as long as you don't mind sitting while observing, most tripods, even some of the cheaper ones will work fine. I usually sit in a lawn chair and have the legs of the tripod go on either side of me. I find I can lean the tripod back on two legs and be pretty comfortable and still get the support for steady views.
Unless the 10x50's you currently own are of poor quality, I doubt you will notice much difference until you get into the 15x range.
YMMV
Ken
-------------------- Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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Thank you for that information guys. Certainly food for thought and I'm re-evaluating my plans now. I look forward to your findings Tony.
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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
Reged: 10/28/08
Posts: 2059
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
I plan to compare my 10x50s against my (recently purchased) 12x60s tonight. I'll let you know what I think.
Please make a separate post for all of us? I'm especially interested to read your comments because I have the Oberwerk 15x60. Same model, different mag.
IIRC, Lord Kenneth of ( oops, so sorry, I can't remember where) made a post about the 12x60 a while back. It's buried somewhere in the "Best of" section. He liked them. Good bang for the buck.
Clear Skies!
-------------------- Todd
Brunton Eterna 15x51 ° Garrett Optical Signature Series 15x70
Nikon Action EX 12x50 ° Oberwerk 15x60 and 20x80 Standard
Orion Paragon Plus Mount and Paragon XHD Tripod
Garrett Optical Series 2000 Grip-Action Monopod
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1590
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi all,
I do use the OB 11x56, and I appreciate the lighter weight, a great view, and the ergonomics of this handheld unit. It dosen't matter to me if the aperture is slightly compensated.
It equates to the weight of an earlier 7x35. And, at this most reasonable cost, it is a "deal." (Deal or no Deal!)
This is just my own opinion considering about 50 of my own collection.
Best regards, Dave.
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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Thanks for the responses. Yes I really like the look of the 11x56 pair. Since I've posted this I've been leaning towards the 12x60 pair. I figured since I probably wouldn't be buying another pair for quite some time to come that I might want to get "crazy" with it. LOL
But I must say I've been drawn to the 11x56 pair as well. They seem a nice size to have. Maybe over time I could wind up with both for the fun of it. At the those prices it's actually feasible.
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1590
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi zanti,
I would draw you to the 11x56, myself. I would (not) spend any additional money on another binocular that is so close to the other.
You might be spending your time deciding which is better, instead of enjoying the night skies with EITHER.
Theses are just my contributions, my friend.
Best regards, Dave.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Thanks for the responses. Yes I really like the look of the 11x56 pair. Since I've posted this I've been leaning towards the 12x60 pair. I figured since I probably wouldn't be buying another pair for quite some time to come that I might want to get "crazy" with it. LOL
I spent a fair amount of time on Saturday night comparing my (newly acquired) 12x60s against my 10x50s and my 15x70s.
Initially, I had planned to advise you that even the 12x60s were too close to your 10x50s to warrant spending the money. (I only purchased mine due to an odd happenstance that's too complicated to explain now.) But after my comparisons, I concluded that 10x50, 12x60, and 15x70 are each quite different from the next, and 12x60 in some ways is a rather nice compromise.
15x70s really make all kinds of stuff pop out that's subtle at best in the 10x50s. But on the other hand, they're *much* bigger and heavier, harder to hold steady, and their narrow true field of view begins to be a real problem (for me, anyway). I can find just about anything instantly in my 10x50s; with the much smaller true FOV of the 15x70s, I often have to hunt around for a while.
With the 12x60s, I found most things quite quickly, and the views (not surprisingly) were more or less halfway to the 15x70s.
All the differences that I noted were subjective; there's no particular detail that I noted in the 15x70s that I didn't also see in the 10x50s. And subjective differences are hard to describe -- but I'll try anyway.
My last subject was M31. This was at my country home in the yellow zone -- skies far from pristine -- but it was late enough, and M31 was high enough, to give very fine views nonetheless.
I started with the 10x50s. M31 was bright and grand as always, and I could see M110 easily -- but only because I know what it looks like. A beginner would no doubt have thought at first that it was a hallucination. I couldn't tell easily which of the "stars" on the other side of M31 was actually the companion galaxy M32. (Remember, all this was handheld, so the views weren't tack sharp.)
In the 12x60s, M31 had much more power and presence, and M110 was quite unmistakable. Moreover, M32 now stood out quite clearly as a fuzzy spot. Switching back to the 10x50s, and knowing exactly what to look for, it was then quite apparent that M32 was fuzzier in these binos as well.
The 15x70s were a whole new world. M31 was overwhelming, appearing (though it's an illusion) to stretch all the way across the field. M110 was not merely readily visible, but even showed a bit of structure. The sharp edge of M31 on the M110 side was quite apparent, and I might have seen hints of the inner dust lane. M32 was so bright and large that it was hard to believe I'd had trouble seeing it in my 10x50s.
Since I was observing from a lounge chair, hand-holding wasn't really a problem with any of the binos, even the 15x70s.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
Edited by Tony Flanders (09/21/09 06:56 AM)
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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Thank you for that info Tony! Very kind of you indeed, and very informative.
I've been doing a lot of debating (but I love this stuff so its all fun to me) about which way to go. Last night I narrowed my new search down to the Braska line, the 12x60 Storm and the Cosmos 15x60. There are things I liked about them both. In the end I decided to get "crazy" and go with a little more power over some of the other features, for now.
So my pair of Cosmos binocs should be in early next week. I'll post a review of my experiences with them. If I don't like them I'll be sending em back to try the 12x60 Storms for just a little more cash. But we'll cross that bridge if/when it comes.
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94bamf
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 721
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
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Quote:
Thank you for that info Tony! Very kind of you indeed, and very informative. 
I've been doing a lot of debating (but I love this stuff so its all fun to me) about which way to go. Last night I narrowed my new search down to the Braska line, the 12x60 Storm and the Cosmos 15x60. There are things I liked about them both. In the end I decided to get "crazy" and go with a little more power over some of the other features, for now.
So my pair of Cosmos binocs should be in early next week. I'll post a review of my experiences with them. If I don't like them I'll be sending em back to try the 12x60 Storms for just a little more cash. But we'll cross that bridge if/when it comes.
I hope you have some strong arms, those babies are listed at 4 pounds! I think you better start looking for a tripod, I noticed those have individual focusers on each eyepiece which will probably be hard to use handheld. I have heard of this brand before, but not this particular model. I look forward to hearing what you think of them.
Ken
-------------------- Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80
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Jay_Bird
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 959
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
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Are the Cosmos the same 15x60mm binocular that is reviewed on Holger Merlitz' web site? I think that was on his Chinese bin reviews, at the end of his review list...
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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From my brief experience with binoculars I sometimes find the heavier ones to be a little easier for me to hold steady which is what I was hoping for with these. I'll certainly be using my stable reclining hiking chair though... 
Yes those individual focusers look interesting. I would think that once I'm dialed in on the heavens I wouldn't have to make too many alterations afterwards. But I like the idea of them staying where you put them vs. constantly adjusting the focus wheel or rocker (not saying they all have this problem or anything).
Yes I read that review Jay Bird. The picture of the binocs shown look different than the ones offered by Braska, but I think they are talking about the same model. I liked what I read well enough to give em a shot. I actually found very few reviews, though the few I did find were favorable.
Something about these had a hold on me when I first found them. But the 12x60 Storm also got me. Now I was looking at the Celestron 15x70, and I may yet get a pair. They are so cheap. But I liked the rugged, solid looking Cosmos and took the plunge.
Of course I'm still sitting here second guessing myself, and probably could continue to do so for months on end if I allowed myself. HAHA So I had to make a command decision and go with something that looked cool to me, or I very nearly might have blown an internal gasket. I know my wife was getting tired of me talking about it...
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Jay_Bird
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 959
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
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Well good luck and have fun no matter what you choose!
Just for one more twist, the last I looked there was a Orion Mini Giant 15x63 for $50 off (about $175) on Orion's clearance page, don't know if that deal gets an interesting 2-1/2 pound alternative into the running for other interested readers...
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12909
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Zanti ,
From a former OUTER LIMITS viewer , BRAVO for making a decision .
I'm not sure whether these Braska binoculars are made in Nebraska , or made in China like the uncannily similar spelled Barska models :-)
To address a side issue that brought me into the discussion in an earlier post , much as I liked the 12 x 60 Oberwerk with it's 5.7 degree TFOV , given the choice for hand - holding I would almost certainly prefer the 11 x 56 , which is probably more like a TRUE 10 x 50 effectively anyway .
Lord Kenneth of Brindle
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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haha thanks Kenny and Jay. Oh we're big sci fi buffs around here. Twilight Zone rules!
Yeah I like the Orion line but it was out of my price reach.
My wife picked up a Celeston 70mm Travel Scope not long ago, so I can use that if I want a deeper view that's simple to pull out on the nights when the 8" Dob isn't worth the effort. We were happily surprised at the nice crisp views it offered.
The only thing about the Cosmos line that I wish it had were "fully multi-coated" lenses vs just "multi-coated". Probably won't be too big a deal but that's something the 12x60 Storm's had, but I had to make a decision. I love these kinds of self made dilemmas though, all a labor of love for me. hahaha 
Thanks for the input. I'll certainly return with some first impressions and such.
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zanti-misfit
member
Reged: 08/17/09
Posts: 88
Loc: SE United States
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Just wanted to add I paid $103.49 with free shipping. I had found a few discount coupon codes that saved me 11.50! COOL!
The 12x60 Storm cost 129.99, not sure about the shipping. Hopefully I'll like the Cosmos enough that I'll be satisfied.
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pinkkid
member
Reged: 08/20/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Paso Robles, CA
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Hi zanti-misfit... Just wanted to add, though I think I'm too late, but 12x60's form Garrett Optical are $109, but I can get you $10 bucks off that order through their friend referral program. My husband just got those and he really likes them, I do too for that matter. Also my sister & brother in law tried them out last week and they really liked them too and are ordering them as well. They are the Light Weight Series so nice to hold even for me and they have a decent FoV along with being Fully Multi Coated AND guarantee's to be culminated. Zach the owner/operator do all guy their is VERY nice and great customer service and he can help you with any decision making questions you may have. He also sells under astronomybinoculars.com as well as his main site garrettoptical.com Here is the link for the referral program to get the Garrett Optical discount: http://www.garrettoptical.com/Articles.asp?ID=158
Shelley Bright, he knows me well now too! LOL
p.s. I had my eye Dr check my pupil since I had to go for my check up anyways, very easy to do as long as you have or can draw up a line of circles in various mm sizes (4mm-7mm). Mine was close to 7mm so I too was thinking of picking a pair of 9x60's just for grins and to match my eye.
-------------------- Pink Skies at Night.. Sailors Delight
Red Skies at Morning... Sailors Take Warning
Nikon Action Extreme All Terrain 8x40
Garrett Optical Gemini 10x50LW
Orion Savannah 10x50
Garrett Optical Gemini 12x60LW
Garrett Optical Gemini 20x80LW
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