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jkevn
sage
Reged: 03/02/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
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I have two binoculars that I use often, Orion 10x50 Savannah and Celestron 15x70 Skymaster. Despite the fact that the Orion Savannah is fully multi-coated, and the Skymaster isn't, I can see quite a bit more with the Skymaster because of its larger aperture. The main disadvantage of the 15x70 Skymaster, of course, is that it is too heavy to hold steady for very long by hand. I use it mostly mounted on a tripod.
I was thinking about buying binoculars that had a larger aperture than the 10x50s, so I could see fainter objects easier, but would still be light enough to be hand-held. It should also have exit pupils of 5 mm.
I am 55 years old, and measured my exit pupils recently using metric drill bits held close to my eye, while looking at Sirius, and it looks like my max pupil diameter is 5.5 mm in my right eye and 5 mm in my left eye. So for me, the binoculars need to have an exit pupil of around 5 mm to take advantage of the full objective aperture.
Would there be a significant advantage going from 50 mm to 60 mm objectives in seeing fainter objects with hand-held binoculars? Or would this be a marginal advantage?
One inexpensive possibility I was thinking about would be the Oberwerk 12x60.
Comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Kevin
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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
Reged: 10/28/08
Posts: 2037
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Hello Kevin,
I've been hoping those who own either the Garrett or Oberwerk 12x60 model would reply.
Considering its low price, this binocular model has generally received favorable comment. In fact, it's been mentioned in several recent threads. For example, Pinkkid likes the Garrett 12x60 and impressed relatives have also ordered it. I believe in another thread that Tony Flanders was reporting on using either the Garrett or Oberwerk 12x60 in comparison with a 10x50 and a 15x70. Once again nothing negative.
12x is considered the upper limit for hand-held observing. IMO, without using your elbows as the equivalent of two tripod legs, or whatever technique you choose, you will get some shaking. I do hand-held observing with my Brunton Eterna 15x51, Nikon 12x50 Action EX and Oberwerk 15x60, but the views are always better when these binoculars are mounted.
I've had the Oberwerk 15x of this model since late April 2008. From December 2005 until then, I did considerable hand-held observing with my Brunton Eterna 15x51. The Oberwerk 15x60 gave my hand-held stargazing a real boost when I couldn't do mounted observing with my Celestron Skymaster 20x80. However, you should know (I don't think anyone has contrary information) this model's effective aperture is less than 60mm. Right now, I'm trying Glenn Le Drew's technique for a quick and easy way to measure effective aperture. (This a very active thread right now. Take a look.) For my Oberwerk 15x60, I do measure less than 60mm for sure. I wish someone with more experience would measure this model.
Due to the ongoing and endless fog here in San Francisco, I've not been able to do as many comparisons of my Oberwerk 15x60 with my Nikon 12x50 Action EX which I bought in April. I do enjoy the difference in magnification.
I am basically happy with this Oberwerk model. No regrets at all.
Clear skies!
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Todd
Brunton Eterna 15x51 ° Garrett Optical Signature Series 15x70
Nikon Action EX 12x50 ° Oberwerk 15x60 and 20x80 Standard
Orion Paragon Plus Mount and Paragon XHD Tripod
Garrett Optical Series 2000 Grip-Action Monopod
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12895
Loc: Lancashire UK
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My understanding is the effective aperture of the 60mm models in question is around 52mm.
That would thus not be a noticeable increase over the 50mm , unlss of course the 50mm Savannahs are only effectively 42mm , or whatever ! :-)
What is more noticable for me is how much more tricky 12x ( or 11.4x or whatever it is ! ) is to hold steady than 10x ( or 9.645 or whatever the true magnification is ) .
Everyone is different , and " trump " is not the right expression here , but for ME , sheer QUALITY of image ( for example stars appearing as crisp , well defined , symmetric dots ) provides more satisfaction than just about everything else , including magnification , field of view and depth of sky objects visible .
It is the reason I would rather spend 10 minutes looking through my Nikon 10x 42 SE than an hour through my 20 x 90.
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Man in a Tub
Not Retired!, But a little cranky!!!
Reged: 10/28/08
Posts: 2037
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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I just jumped over to Big Binoculars and noticed that there's one user review for the 12x60:
Quote:
These are really good binoculars, but I can't hand hold them for a steady image.
While I was logged out, I attempted some more "folk" aperture measurements of my 15x60. My average is about 53mm. "That's close enough for folk!"*
*As so stated by folk singer Eric Andersen after some embarassing turning and twisting of his guitar tuning knobs at long-gone Club 47 in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in the summer of 1965.
Best regards,
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Todd
Brunton Eterna 15x51 ° Garrett Optical Signature Series 15x70
Nikon Action EX 12x50 ° Oberwerk 15x60 and 20x80 Standard
Orion Paragon Plus Mount and Paragon XHD Tripod
Garrett Optical Series 2000 Grip-Action Monopod
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14731
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Whether both your 10x50 and a new 12x60 are operating at full specs or both equally reduced specs, the gain from a 10x50 to a 12x60 is no more than about 0.3 to 0.4 magnitude.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
My understanding is the effective aperture of the 60mm models in question is around 52mm.
That's what I measured them at yesterday. Nonetheless, the visual impact of the night sky is *much* greater than through my 10x50s. I don't know whether that's entirely due to the higher magnification or whether the 10x50s are also aperture-challenged. (They're at my second home, so I won't be able to measure them for a while.)
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14731
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Nonetheless, the visual impact of the night sky is *much* greater than through my 10x50s. I don't know whether that's entirely due to the higher magnification or whether the 10x50s are also aperture-challenged.
Many 10x50s are "challenged". Which model 10x50s are yours? perhaps we have some data on them. I've tested 12 different 10x50s from 8 different companies. Only ONE was not reduced, Fujinon 10x50.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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94bamf
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 707
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
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Maybe my perception of magnification is not as good as some of the other guys here, but when I compare my Pentax 12x50's to any of my 10x50's I have a hard time even sensing an increase in magnification. I think part of it has to do with the reduced AFOV of the Pentax. Somehow for me seeing the smaller AFOV makes the image seem farther away. On the other hand when I pick up the 15x70's the difference is completely obvious, but those have around a 65 AFOV.
Ken
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Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Which model 10x50s are yours?
Celestron Ultima. But I'm not sure how helpful that will be; I believe more than one model has been sold under that name.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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pinkkid
member
Reged: 08/20/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Paso Robles, CA
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I too have the Savannah 10x50 also Garretts 12x60 and their 10x50... I prefer the Savannah overall... for it's sharper image and better focusing, nice weight and decent FOV. The 12x60 is actually easy to hold I think but if I have the choice, 10x50(or 10x40/42) wins in most brands. That's just me though.
The 12x isn't that big of a deal over the 10x really, but it is nice to have and a nice addition to any bino quiver. You see things a little closer but as for detail, no difference at all and you loose some FOV(but it's not bad!) My husband loves the 12x60 as well as his sister and brother in law who tried them. I like them alot but still prefer a 10x50 because of the lighter weight and FOV. The of the 10x is what I like as well as the image and focusing quality of the Savannah in particular. I actually like the Garretts 10x50 FOV better and it's lighter weight, but for me I was having a hard time getting that finer pinpoint image and focusing thus the Savannah wins.
For hand held use, the 12x60 really is fine especially if you lean against something or have a chair or even better, the grip action monopod!
As for 15x70's.. I think they'd be pretty slick to have as well but not really for hand held use, maybe briefly. Use the monopod for that. I would think the difference between 10x and 15x would be more worth it than the 12x's, really I do. But for hand held... 12x's if you want that little more umpf in magnification but still holdable, otherwise 10x50's are near perfect! I have some 8x40 Nikon AE but have not had a chance to really use them at night, I am hoping for nice wide clear sharp views for sweeping the skies. Leave the nitty gritty views to mounted bino's. I think the 15x70 would be awesome with the grip action monopod along with 10x50's for hand held and then of course some big boys such as 25x100 or 30x90's or those really huge expensive bino/telescope ones!
ENJOY!
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Pink Skies at Night.. Sailors Delight
Red Skies at Morning... Sailors Take Warning
Nikon Action Extreme All Terrain 8x40
Garrett Optical Gemini 10x50LW
Orion Savannah 10x50
Garrett Optical Gemini 12x60LW
Garrett Optical Gemini 20x80LW
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