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cosurgi
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Gdańsk, Poland, EU
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Hello,
I purchased last week a pair of new Fujinon 16x70FMT-SX. I decided to get those after reading dozens of reviews from this site. Now I wonder if it's just my eyes, or is it normal, or if I should get a warranty replacement.
First of all, I have never looked through a binocular of such a high quality, so I cannot compare with anything. If my pair has a flaw - I have no knowledge to recognize it. The views of M31 or M13 are astounding, also I managed to split Mizar A from Mizar B (but when I looked they sometimes seemed separate, sometimes connected, possibly due to atmospheric turbulence). During this week when I received them I had only 3 nights without clouds, but seeing wasn't good either: 4.5 - 5M at most. Sometimes I have nights with up to 5.7M at my place. Also, I have a very good eyesight, I can boast that I can read 1.5 millimeter high font from a distance of 2 meters.
However the stars in my new 16x70 are not pin-point, they seem like a... kids-drawn star. That is, they have tiny speckles of light coming from them in several directions. But those speckles are so tiny, that maybe they are caused by my retina (?).
The thing that I'm worried about is the view of Jupiter. It isn't a sharp flat disc. Even when in the center of AFOV. Instead it has three "shadows" smudged from it in three different directions forming a letter "T". One is blue, other two are orange. I suspect that this could be chromatic aberration, but why three smudges instead of two, and why in the center of AFOV? To be precise in the center of AFOV they are about 0.25 of Jupiter radius, at about half the distance from center to edge of AFOV they have about 1 radius of Jupiter disc.
I have drawn a picture of what I see. It's a modified screenshot taken from stellarium. I've drawn Jupiter-smudges and star-like stars+moons (with those speckles). See the picture below:
The question is: is that normal for Fujinon 16x70FMT-SX. I understand that such a binocular isn't for planets, but maybe it shouldn't look like that?
best regards and thank you in advance for your help
Janek Kozicki
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Wes James
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 3459
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Janek-
I hate to say this, but I think they should be replaced. There's no way you should see stars- or Jupiter like that. Stars should be pinpoints of light when focused, at least most of the way out. Sounds to me like your bino's have some elements in it that have been misaligned, because they seem to have pretty bad astigmatism in them. Unless you have astigmatism in your eyes-
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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cosurgi
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Gdańsk, Poland, EU
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Is there some kind of easy test to check if I have astigmatism, without going to an optician? Opticians never checked my eyes too carefully, because I can read smallest letters from twice the usual distance on their optician's charts. So maybe they missed it?
But on the other hand I have a small SMT 1000mm telescope, MTO11-CA and Jupiter in it doesn't have such astigmatism. It's a clear disc.
I will continue to do some test during incoming days.
Question to people who have this Fujinon binocular: is Jupiter for you a clear flat disc with sharp edge?
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RichD
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 565
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Hi Janek,
I have this bino and don't see the flaws you described. When focused correctly on jupiter I see a clean disc with no false colour (when in the centre of the FOV). If I move Jupiter towards the edge of the FOV I begin to see chromatic aberration and some flaring.
It's moons however always appear as a clean pointlike image. They are not bright enough to cause spiking or flaring in this binocular. Only bright stars such as Sirius or Vega show any flaring or spiking in my experience.
I think you may have been unlucky and received a bad sample - i would recommend you return it under warranty.
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Clear skies
Rich
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cosurgi
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Gdańsk, Poland, EU
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Does the chromatic aberration, which you mentioned, near the edge of FOV, look similar to what I've drawn? I mean: three smudges that form a letter "T" ?
The spiking and flaring on the moons is so small that sometimes I'm unsure that it's there. On Vega it is very clear, though.
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cosurgi
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Gdańsk, Poland, EU
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Oh, and spiking-flaring was also very clear on Mizar A-B. I distinctly remember this, when I was looking to see a split between them. And I saw this split appearing and disappearing.
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RichD
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 565
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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The CA does not form a T as I recall, more of just a fringing.Purple and green on opposite sides I think.Only when more than 50% of the way to the edge of the field.
I haven't seen any spiking on Mizar, fairly clean as I remember. The appearance and disappearance of the split was due to atmospheric disturbances I expect. Vega always appears slightly "bloated" and flared through my pair.
I will add that if you were seeing the T shaped aberrations on jupiter while it is in the centre of the field then there is something wrong IMO.
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Clear skies
Rich
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Jim Rosenstock
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 3720
Loc: MD, south of the DC Nebula
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It seems pretty evident that something in the optics is defective/misaligned/pinched.
It might well be a simple fix for somebody who knows what to do.
But, this is NOT acceptable for a new pair of premium binoculars.
Return them for replacement.
Cheers,
Jim
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1276
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Janek,
Here are a couple of tests to help understand what you are seeing. Look through each barrel alone, with each eye, and try to determine if the problem is unique to one barrel, or one eye. Rotate the barrel, and determine if the three-spike pattern rotates.
Stars look imperfect to me in my 16x70, too, although not exactly like you have drawn. My own very subjective description of the level of the problem is that any star bright enough to be visible naked eye exhibits a noticeable focus imperfection. I see variously imperfect star blobs, depending on my eye position, with small sharp rays that stick out one moment and disappear the next, but nothing as definite as what you have drawn. Similarly, the edge of Jupiter looks soft, but well defined multiple images as you describe are not apparent. Jupiter's moons look like nice sparkly pinpoints. Your description of the Mizar split mirrors my own. If I am really after double stars, I stop down to 60mm or even less, which gives a sharper although dimmer view.
Web conversations are limited in their exactness, and it's hard to get to the bottom of it. I suspect that critical observers will always see imperfections in binoculars, especially big and powerful ones. At some level you have to get over it and enjoy the instrument's strongest ability, to reveal very dim objects. But your problem may be slightly over the line of what should be tolerated. If the spike pattern can be shown to originate in the binocular, that is more than typical fast-achromat/sharp-eye syndrome, but some kind of assembly defect, and I think you should ask for an exchange.
Ron
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3216
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Quote:
But on the other hand I have a small SMT 1000mm telescope, MTO11-CA and Jupiter in it doesn't have such astigmatism. It's a clear disc.
Janek, to be sure if this is meaningful or not, i.e. says something about your eyes, your scope should operate at approximately the same exit pupil size. For your scope that means 24x magnification.
One important test you could furthermore do with your binoculars, is to describe what happens as you slightly move your eye position. Often the appearance of a fan of light protruding from Jupiter, is related to eye position. Spend some time fine-tuning your IPD and make sure to test vertical positioning as well.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3216
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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In addition a collimation test seems necessary: looking at a bright star, completely de-focus one side of the binocular and check if the blob shown on that side overlaps with the star shown on the other side.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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cosurgi
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Gdańsk, Poland, EU
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Thank you for all you suggestions. Today was a good seeing. and so I made few more tests.
Indeed moving the eye around changes the direction of those fans of light from Jupiter. The best image that I could obtain, with Jupiter in the exact center of FOV looks like this:
Although it occurs in both left and right ocular, it seems to be more pronounced in the right one. I mounted binoculars upside-down, so that right eye looked through left ocular, and left eye through the right ocular. The deformation pattern remained, but this time it was hard to say that it was more pronounced in my left eye (as it should be if the defect is not in my eyes but in the binocular). It seemed to be equally deformed in both oculars. But also I think that the deformation pattern rotated 180 degress. I tried of course looking with only one eye, both left and right to only one ocular both left and right. However all those tests are difficult to quantify, since the image wasn't steady due to atmosphere (just like I could also see atmospheric turbulences when looking at our Moon). And when looking with both eyes open the image was a "diamond" mix of two different looking Jupiters, because the deformation in each ocular was present and didn't match the other one.
Also I looked at Vega to see if those speckles are really present. And yes, there are present and quite large (for comparison the speckling on Jupiter moons was really barely visible, sometimes not at all). But also when Vega is in exact center of FOV I am seeing chromatic aberration. Left speckling half of Vega is bluish and right speckling part is whitish with small orange tint. I don't remember if this happens for both left and right ocular.
I am adjusting my IPD by looking at the AFOV edges and checking if AFOV is still a perfect circle. If it isn't then I change IPD so that it is a perfect circle for all positions of my eyeball. I mean that it isn't a circle if the exit pupil doesn't fit 100% of its area into my eye pupil, after the eyeball has moved. I have no idea if that's how it should be done, but that's how I did set IPD for me.
For my MTO11-CA I have only 15mm and 25mm eyepieces, which produce exit pupils 1.5mm and 2.5mm. So the only thing that I can do now is to reduce Fujinon's exit pupil to 2.5mm by reducing aperture to 40mm. I will cut a cardboard aperture blockers and try this next time.
I am getting more convinced that defect is on binocular's side. However to be sure I'll be checking with cardboard that reduces aperture, and checking if CA on Vega happens in both right and left ocular.
best regards
Janek Kozicki
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Rick
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 3047
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Janek, a few years back there were few threads started by a Polish Bino tester named Arek with his own web site, http://www.optyczne.pl/
He hasn't posted here in a long time and now it seems he has branched out to other optics as well. Anyway, he might be able to give you some advise too.
Frankly, I think Jupiter might be a poor target for testing now given your latitude. Less than 30deg above the horizon is just too atmosphere to get good planetary seeing.
cheers,
Rick
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www.japanastro.com
Edited by Rick (09/25/09 08:20 PM)
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ronharper
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 1276
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Janek,
That second image of Jupiter looks much better, not perfect for sure, but very close to what I see. I can barely make out the two main belts! You are progressing along the learning curve for the 16x70, which took a while for me (like everything else). At this point, I am beginning to doubt that you will gain much by swapping for a different binocular.
Stopping down will almost certainly improve the sharpness, due to effects both in the binocular and the eye. You will find it interesting, but I don't know what it will prove, except perhaps that the technique can be useful.
Your images are very good, by the way. Those are the most realistic drawings of this type that I have ever seen, and they take a lot of the guesswork out of this.
Ron
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12908
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I've never looked through a Fujinon 16 x 70 FMTSX , but those artistic impressions of how Jupiter appears through your specimen are a long way short of what I would have expected , given the legendary praise heaped upon the model by so many , for so long .
I've seen Jupiter looking better than that through the Bresser 10 x 50 ( 40 ) Porros that I got from Lidl supermarket for £9.99. !
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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AV in CMH
sage
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 462
Loc: Columbus Ohio
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Janek,
I must say that I agree with Kenny concerning the expectations for the Fuji 16x 70.
Do you see the same effects in other binoculars?
For what it is worth I use binoculars ranging from 10 x 25 to 10 x 50 to 20 x 60 and 25 x 100 none of which have the image problems like the ones you have documented.
Good luck,
Anthony
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cosurgi
member
Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Gdańsk, Poland, EU
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About contacting/meeting people in Poland - my problem is actually that apart from late evenings I have little time to go out, due to kids, and lots of work. However if Arek lives in Gdansk, that could be helpful, I will check this.
I bought this binocular from a shop owned by my friend so there definitely won't be any problem with replacing it. He lives in Warsaw and I live in Gdansk and we actually met last time about 5 years ago. If I were in Warsaw there wouldn't be any problem to take few other Fujinons from his stock and compare them together side by side. But given the 400km distance it's currently not an option.
The question is: is it actually bad atmospheric conditions 20° above horizon, my eyes, or the binocular. There still wasn't a "perfect night", they happen quite rarely. I don't want to trouble my friend to replace something that may be in perfect condition after all. That is sending a parcel to another city, and paying for it, and warranty troubles for him. Better I spend more time learning to use this binocular. And telling you how I see it 
Also I don't have much experience with looking through binoculars. For about 8 years I owned only MTO11-CA 100mm/1000mm and a noname binocular 12x60 of questionable quality. Just last week I (re)discovered that my wife's cheap photolens 60mm/500mm can act as a small refractor.
Thank you for appreciating my drawings, I finished an art course 10 years ago, but I never worked in this area so I tend to forget how to draw what I see . But I guess that (again) limited time prevents me from drawing truly what I see. Especially drawing the back of my retina when looking on de-focused Jupiter would take too much time  .
Now, about comparing to something else. I have never looked through Fujinons and I was expecting something "pefrect". The only thing that I can do is to compare with what I have. If this Fujinon is bad then image should look worse than in my other optics, right? Now I have borrowed another tripod, and also discovered that my wife's cheap photolens can be used as a refractor, because I can attach to it an eyepiece from my MTO11-CA. So I am comparing:
- Fujinon 16x70FMT-SX (which is twice more expensive than all my other optics combined )
- MTO-11CA, 100mm aperture (25% obstruction) 1000mm focal length. With 25mm eyepiece gives 2.5mm exit pupil
- cheap (90 USD) photo lens from an analog reflex camera (analog SLR), 60mm aperture, 500mm focal length. With a 25mm eyepiece gives 3mm exit pupil
To obtain the same exit pupil, the Fujinon will need 48mm aperture blocker to compare with 500mm refractor (photo lens), and 40mm aperture blocker to compare with MTO-11CA.
- Fujinon has magnification 16x,
- MTO-11CA has magnification 40x,
- cheap refractor has magnification 20x.
That 25mm eyepiece which I use here did cost 30 USD, so isn't too high quality too.
During this weekend both nights were quite acceptable. Not perfect, reaching about 5.3 mag.
First I did a collimation test on Fujinon using the menthod mentioned by Mark9473, max defocus of one ocular and compare. Here's the result, I noted it on paper and now made a picture based on screenshot from stellarium:
Therefore the miscollimation distance seems to be about 2 or 3 minutes. (half the distance between Jupiter an Ganymede on 26.IX.2009 at 21:44 in Poland). I had a feeling before that this is the case, because sometimes when closing one eye and opening it, I've seen the two images to be merging before they formed a single one.
Next I've set up side by side Fujinon 16x70, MTO-11CA with 25mm eyepiece and 60mm/500mm cheap refractor photolens with the same eyepiece.
Excuse me for not drawing what I've seen, because the image of Jupiter in Fujinon didn't change at all despite my best efforts in trying, so simply look above. I could ditinctly see at least two extra images of Jupiter overlapping the original one. They were a two distorted ellipses on top of a Jupiter's circle. The images in cheap photolens 500mm and MTO-11CA were much better.
- In 500mm refractor I could barely see a belt, and the Jupiters disc was perfectly circular.
- In 1000mm Jupiter I could see clearly 2 belts, and I barely could see a third one, the disc was perfectly circular.
- Fujinon with 48mm aperture blocker (to obtain the same exit pupil = 3mm) produced much ligher image than the cheap refractor 60mm/500mm (exit pupil 3mm), thanks to coating. But this image was distorted. It was less distorted with 48mm, than without aperture blocker (with full 70mm), but still it was.
A 90 USD refractor made from analog SLR photolens produced a perfectly circular disc while Fujinon failed to do so. Now I am fully convinced that I need a replacement.
I looked into binocular with just one eye into left & right ocular, just as I looked with one eye into refractor. Left one gave a little better image than right one, but both of them had image worse than 500mm refractor.
Another interesting thing to note is that when the dew kicked in, and all the lens got covered in fog, the rainbow-hued circle around Jupiter was irregular in right ocular. And it was a nice circle in left ocular.
So this concludes the first stage of my adventure with Fujinon. Thank you very much for your helpful hints about what tests should I perform.
Janek Kozicki
PS:I know that this binocular is not for planet observations. But it should produce planet's image at least comparable with image in cheap 60mm/500mm refractor .
PSS:I can post photos of this equipment above, if you are curious, e.g. how I made a refractor out of photolens
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 12908
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Janek ,
May I be the first to applaud not only your efforts but the good spirited nature in which you are going about sharing these experiments and problems .
I must rush out now to an emergency call !
Kind Regards
Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Wes James
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 3459
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Janek-
I'm glad you're making progress on determining whether or not your Fuji's have a problem. I hope you get it resolved! Sounds like you're on track, and have had a logical path to follow to check them out. Good luck!
I would be interested in seeing more on converting a telephoto lens into a telescope- having an old Pentax telephoto lens lying around!
Kindest Regards,
Wes
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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I really don't think you need to do much more testing. there is an apparent problem with the image formation in the Fujinon. It should not look like that. I would return them.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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