Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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I have really been having fun recently with my new Hyperstar set up. So far I have just been shooting in Alt-Az mode playing around to learn the setup. I plan on getting serious here shortly. The combination of B. mask, Live view and Hyperstar make everything about imaging easier. Focus is quick and easy, extremely short exposures can produce good results (at least on fairly bright objects), the F2 ratio and focal length are very forgiving. Quite a change from my usual 2-4 hours of 10 minute subs. Here are some pics:
First the rig - a Nexstar 11 Carbon Fiber GPS with Hyperstar:




These were all taken with the above NS11/Canon 40D combo in Alt/Az mode processed with Images Plus using only a quick DDP and in some cases a slight boost to color, brightness, or both. No tweaking in Photoshop at all.
M42 from last Friday (9/25/9) 20x35sec Total exposure 11min 40sec low on horizon. Need some short (a couple of seconds) exposures to layer mask over the seriously burned out core.
 M8 and M20 (poorly framed) from a couple of weeks ago 20x35sec 11min 40sec total
 M45 Pleaides last Friday (9/25/9) 20x35sec 11min 40sec Total exposure
 M31 from last Saturday (9/26/9) with the 1st Quarter Moon high in the sky!! I was surprised this turned out so well. 20x35sec 11min 40sec total
 NGC1499 (poorly framed) 30x35sec 17min 30sec Total exposure
 IC5070 Pelican Nebula (some field rotation issues) 30x35sec 17min 30sec Total exposure

I can even get Hydrogen Alpha images in 90-120 seconds with a 6nm filter!!
I really love my Hyperstar! I am going to mount it on my EQ in the observatory in the next few days so I can do ultra long 2-3 minute exposures! (at least if the chip doesn't saturate before that!!)
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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Forgot to say that I just added a Hyperstar gallery to my website. Here is the link:
Hyperstar Gallery
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Skyshooter
member
Reged: 04/07/08
Posts: 91
Loc: S. Utah, U.S.A.
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Dang, gotta love the short exposure times! Great images. Your gonna enjoy that setup!
-------------------- C8 SCT, f/6.3 reducer, WO ZS66SD
Astro-Tech 2" Flattener
Losmandy GM8, SSAG, Canon XS (Modified)
Toshiba NB205 (field computer)
DSS, PS Elements 7, Bahtinov Mask
Plethora of eyepieces and lots of patience !
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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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Skyshooter - I am having a blast with this thing! It is really amazing to see objects in 35 second raw subs that I would normally need several minute subs for.
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Samir Kharusi
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 1076
Loc: Oman
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It really is a bit strange that there is still reluctance to adopt the Hyperstar by every owner of a C11 or C14. The C8 is too small for a DSLR. I find it truly a disruptive optical breakthrough, outperforming many an APO costing far more. Your alt-az captures are pushing the envelope even further. Well done.
-------------------- Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/
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guyroch
sage
Reged: 01/22/08
Posts: 432
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun, Canada
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M42 looks awesome. Hard to beat a fast F2. Glad you're having a blast, I've always aksed myself how much light is blocked by having the camera mounted upfront. Apparently it does not have a negative impact given the fast f2. Thanks for sharing.
-------------------- Orion EON 120mm ED f/7.5
Orion ST80 + SSAG + PHD
NEQ6 Pro (EQMOD) & CG5-GT
Canon 40D (unmod) + TC-80N3
NexImage CCD Planetary Imager
Hutech IDAS, Astronomic CLS, Orion SkyGlow
Plenty of patience and a wife that doesn’t quite understand my love for clear skies, but let’s me go out anyway ~ thanks honey bunny
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Samir Kharusi
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 1076
Loc: Oman
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One of the smaller DSLRs, eg the 1000D, 450D, 500D cover even less of the aperture than the 40D used here. Some people are very fussy and do not wish to see any spikes at all. To do this you cut a paper donut mask for the SCT that makes the shadow of the camera totally circular. Using an internal battery and a cable such as a TC-80N3 cuddled up against the DSLR means that there are no cables at all coming from the camera and nil diffraction spikes. With a 500D the total (circular) obstruction is then 6" diameter and that leaves 67 sq inches clear aperture. That is 4.9x what an FSQ106 has. I.e. you still capture photons at 4.9x the rate that a high end, premium APO costing a lot more can, and with much shorter subs. With some care in collimation and tracking, the image field in a crop DSLR is exquisite. Recall that C11s on-axis are diffraction limited and the Hyperstar really does give a very flat image field. I'd say close to perfect with the C14 I use. A C14 Hyperstar captures photons at 4.6x the rate a 150mm APO does...
-------------------- Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/
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Mobius1
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/28/05
Posts: 745
Loc: Madison, WI / Gurnee, IL
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You're tempting me to take the plunge as well : ) I just don't know what I would end up doing for galaxies, that FOV is absolutely huge!
-------------------- Martin
William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)
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JPGriffin
member
   
Reged: 05/13/09
Posts: 55
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I have almost the exact same set up, except replace the 40D with a 20Da.
Here is a sample of what I accomplished with 30 second subs and alt-az tracking.
Edited by JPGriffin (09/29/09 01:31 AM)
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Nils_Lars
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 4273
Loc: Santa Cruz Mountains , CA
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Amazing 30 sec shots , I cant believe what you guys are doing with that set up.
-------------------- Erik
Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 500D Gary Honis Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik CLS , 12nm Ha , and OIII clip ins
Bahtinov mask
Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II and Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 ED lenses
NexImage webcam
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/
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Tonk
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 08/19/04
Posts: 4497
Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
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Cool results - I'm becoming convinced.
Would this set up work for a meade 10" LX200? or is thr 10" apperture too restricted for a DSLR?
PS - don't forget to flip your images - they are all mirror reversed
PPS - your M42 image missed capturing comet 217P Linear by about 6 arc min - just off top left corner of the image shame
-------------------- Televue 85, GM-8/Gemini, Canon 40D (unmodded), Canon 450D (modded w/Astronomiks clip-ins - UV/IR, OWB)
Coronado SM60/BF10, Baader Herschel Wedge
Leeds Sky Clock Ripon Sky Clock
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Stardaug
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 549
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Wow! Outstanding images for just 11 minutes worth. I had been contemplating a hyperstar but decided against it due to having an 8in CPC. I figured the obstruction would be to great with my Canon 350XT in front. Still, is tempting. Beats spending hours and hours on an object. Although the results hours of photon collecting through a hyperstar might be interesting.
-------------------- "Keep looking up!"
Shawn / Ontario, Canada
Celestron CPC800 SCT w/XLT & GPS // Skywatcher Equinox 80ED F6.25 500mm APO // Canon Rebel 350XT unmodded // Milburn EQ Wedge (a Meade model modified to fit my CPC)
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Samir Kharusi
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 1076
Loc: Oman
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This is where things can go awry. Many people see the Hyperstar as a quickie imaging system. Yes, but it can also be a superb, deep imaging system. Celestron should provide one as a gift to the likes of Gendler or Hallas and get a huge boost in advert cred. Like for SBIG, "One picture is worth a thousand words..." The Hyperstar at f1.9 or f2.0 affords you very short subs, around 30 to 60 sec each even at the darkest sites. But because it is on large diameter OTAs one is also tempted to cut on integration time. For the best images, do not! Three to 5 hours integration on a C11 Hyperstar is equivalent to 15+hours using a 4" APO. And that's do-able in a single session. Now we are talking of seriously deep imaging that has so far been the reserve of only a handful of top imagers with remotely-operated observatories.
Remote galaxies: simply crop! On typical current DSLRs your Hyperstar is sampling at 2 arc-sec per pixel or less. Crop down to 1200x800 pixels and most of the popular galaxies can be framed quite nicely on a one-megapixel frame. Just stick to the usual discipline; dark site, exquisite tracking, ample integration time, plenty of darks, flats and bias. But because it is such a fantastic system we can also get quite sloppy, at a light polluted site, and still get satisfying images that are well out of reach of premium APOs. Try using alt-az tracking on an APO...
I wish I could play with my C14 Hyperstar at a dark site in the mountains, just 2 hours' drive away, but laziness is a killer for most hobbies
-------------------- Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/
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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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Thanks for the comments guys! I have been playing around in Alt-Az mode and taking the setup to club star parties which I don't usually get to attend and it is fun to be able to image more objects per night than usual - I usually get 1. However Samir is right - there is no reason not to go deep with a Hyperstar as well. Most of the reason I have been using it on the forks is that my observatory PC and G11 drive controller board got zapped by lightning the week before I picked up the NS11. Now that I have both items reapired I am hoping this week or this weekend to get the OTA de-forked and on my EQ in the observatory. Once I do that I will start shooting my usual routine of 4 hours or so per object. It will also allow me to do more Hydrogen Alpha shots. I can get OK HA images at 90 seconds, but in Alt-Az only certain areas of the sky will allow that without too much field rotation. I am hoping once I get the thing EQ mounted to get some HA RGB images and some deeper, smoother, less noisy images. I will also be paying more attention to framing and so on as I have always had to do with my smaller FOV 8" newt. Also I will probably try some mosaics of some areas with lots of interesting objects in them.
As Samir said you can certainly crop to get smaller objects like distant galaxies. Just look at JP's Eagle above. Having shot this same object I can tell you that is a pretty tight crop from a much larger FOV. Also don't forget that you can still shoot at the scopes native focal length and also at F6.3 with a reducer. Of course the usual issues of a better mount, guiding, etc will crop back up but still it makes this setup pretty versatile. 2800mm F10, 1764mm F6.3 and 560mm F2. Pretty hard to beat from a single scope!
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Alex Post
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/24/08
Posts: 514
Loc: Iowa, USA
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Oh my goodness. Seeing is believing. DSLR with a Hyperstar... Has anyone tried 8" scopes yet in a similar configuration?
Thank you John for inspiration.
-------------------- Bino: Celestron SkyMaster 15x70, WO Binoviewer
Scope: Celestron NexStar 8SE, Stellarvue 9x50 Finder
EP: Hyperion 8mm 13mm 2x21mm(bino), 14/28mm FTRs, StellarVue 23mm with Rigel Pulse Guide
Misc: William Optics 2" Dielectric, DewBuster, Celestron f/6.3 FLR, Canon 300D and XSi, JMI Motofocus, Hutech IDAS LPS 2"
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JPGriffin
member
   
Reged: 05/13/09
Posts: 55
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I couldn't agree more with Samir's post. I have had this set up for a little less than 2 months and I am still in the phase of learning tight collimation and focusing. Being able to get some really nice pictures with 10 minutes of imaging time is a nice way to keep the motivation going! But I am itching to go deeper to see what this baby can do. My next task is learning solid polar alignment. I should be ready to take some really deep pictures once the sky conditions get better here in sunny, humid central Florida.
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QueueCT
super member
Reged: 06/25/08
Posts: 114
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Alex--
I don't believe that the 8" Hyperstar will accept a DSLR.
John
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DHB001
super member
Reged: 07/07/09
Posts: 158
Loc: The Netherlands
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Impressive results, John! Opens a world of new opportunities. I should think that mosaics of large areas like Orion's belt and sword would be nice projects to tackle with such a fast and relatively widefield setup.
-------------------- Regards,
Boy
C6 SCT @ AS-GT mount
SW 70/500 guide scope
Canon Rebel XS / EOS 1000D, self modded
Astronomik CLS EOS clip filter
Orion SSAG, PHD Guiding
Bahtinov focusing mask
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guyroch
sage
Reged: 01/22/08
Posts: 432
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun, Canada
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Okay, all of you have been praising John all along but I think it's time to hear the truth once and for all.
If you all think that the hyperstar is the way to go and that this thread is enough to make you a believer then...
... you are right, I'm from the believer camp too
Awesome results John! Looks darn promising. Thanks for sharing.
-------------------- Orion EON 120mm ED f/7.5
Orion ST80 + SSAG + PHD
NEQ6 Pro (EQMOD) & CG5-GT
Canon 40D (unmod) + TC-80N3
NexImage CCD Planetary Imager
Hutech IDAS, Astronomic CLS, Orion SkyGlow
Plenty of patience and a wife that doesn’t quite understand my love for clear skies, but let’s me go out anyway ~ thanks honey bunny
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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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Again thanks for the kind words everybody! If you have been doing "conventional" astrophotography with "slow" F4/F5/F6.3/F7.5 or similar scopes you will really be blown away by a Hyperstar system. In Alt-Az mode the setup is pretty portable, setup is quick, no polar alignment necessary, no guiding, etc. Even with the short exposures dictated by Alt-Az and with only 10-15 minutes total exposure you can get decent data. I don't have more than 5-10 minutes processing time on any of the images seen here. It is mostly just DDP in Images Plus and in a couple of cases a color and/or brightness increase also in IP.
The two drawbacks to the system are:
1) It is a bit expensive if you don't already have a compatible SCT although if you count the cost of a quality EQ mount, guidescope, autoguider, etc it is darn reasonable.
2) You will need a TREMENDOUS amount of disk space to process your images! At last month's club star party I shot 312 subs and I only imaged until just after midnight and that was in between looking through other people's scopes and talking about Hyperstar!! I am pretty sure once I get this thing on my EQ mount in the observatory and start shooting 4 hours or more per object I am going to have to buy a large drive and dedicate it just to processing!
I can definitely say that if you already have a C11 or C14 and you image that you would be crazy not to buy a Hyperstar. I also think that for someone starting out in imaging Hyperstar makes it pretty easy compared to most other imaging setups. Also now that the Edge HD scopes are out the market for used Fastar compatible Celestrons should be pretty good for those looking to buy one.
If the weather cooperates I plan on posting some images shot with the NS11 on my EQ and with a few hours total exposure in the near future to show just what this puppy can do!
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Samir Kharusi
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 1076
Loc: Oman
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Quote:
Of course the usual issues of a better mount, guiding, etc will crop back up but still it makes this setup pretty versatile. 2800mm F10, 1764mm F6.3 and 560mm F2. Pretty hard to beat from a single scope!
Pssst! I can't believe that so far nobody seems to have tried the obvious. Stick a 1.4x or a 2x tele-extender on your Hyperstar and see what it does. I have been planning to do it "next time" I am imaging ever since I got the Hyperstar but never did get around to it. Hopefully this winter, weather still too hot right now. Because the moment-arm gets increased, it is much safer to try this with one of the smaller/lighter 1000D, 500D series of cameras, rather than risk cracking that corrector plate with the heavier 40D/50D or the new 7D. I bought a 500D to get me a margin of safety, but it also comes with the bonus of tiny pixels. On a C14 Hyperstar + 500D one gets 1.4arc-sec per pixel, thus most likely already at the limit of my seeing. With a 1.4x you get to 1.0arc-sec per pixel and that is definitely too fine with the seeing most people have. With the 2x you are way over-sampling... With a C14 I do not see much advantage of upgrading to the Edge HD; frankly ridiculous over-sampling at f7 or f11 with any DSLR if seeing is already the Long-Exposure Hi-Res limiter at f2.8 (Hyperstar + 1.4x). At f25 for planetary use there is not much wrong on-axis with the existing C14. The ever tinier pixel sizes in new cameras are changing the rules of the game, e.g. instead of using a 1.4x or 2x for daytime photography, just buy a new 1000D or 500D. Costs little more than a Canon 1.4xII plus a 2xII and delivers the same magnification (after cropping) at a faster f-ratio. I suspect that even the superteles have a hard time outresolving the 4.7micron pixel pitch in a 500D off-axis, so a tele-extender becomes superfluous most of the time, certainly a 2x. The previous generation of 10 to 12 megapixel crop DSLRs already demonstrated that a 2x was not much use for daytime photography (birding) and the latest 15 to 18 megapixel crop DSLRs may well kill the 1.4x for all daytime use. But there may still be a role in astro and Hyperstar use.
-------------------- Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/
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JPGriffin
member
   
Reged: 05/13/09
Posts: 55
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Samir, I have a 2x tele extender for my Canons and I have had that thought as well. I am definitely going to try it once the atmospheric conditions improve over the next few months.
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Jimmy2K63
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 1223
Loc: Kentucky
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I am confused. A week ago we got into a huge discussion on focal ratio on the Beginner's forum and I got shot down on this point. I contend that focal ratio counts and that imaging is all about focal ratio, especially exposure speed. Then the point is made that focal ratio doesn't count, aperture counts, and I get shot down in flames. Now I see this post about how quickly you can collect images at f/2 using this Hyperstar, which by the way, is really nice. It's encouraging to see these adaptations to improve existing gear and to see them work so well. It really does this hobby justice.
So tell me, does focal ratio matter and how does this fit in with the whole f/ratio myth? I need clarification please.
-------------------- http://astronomyguy63.blogspot.com/
Meade LXD75 SN6 with UHTC
Orion ST80
Cave Astrola 10" f/5
Garrett 15x70 binoculars
FarSight binocular mount with reflex finder
Orion Paragon tripod
Canon XS (1000D) and a Meade LPI
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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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Jimmy2K3,
I hate to open this can of worms but I think BOTH focal ratio and aperature count, just in different ways and the only valid way to make comparisons between them is if you make comparisons based on some fixed parameters. For instance there is no doubt that a 20" F5 scope will produce better images (in general) than my 50mm F1.8 Canon camera lens DEPENDING ON THE OBJECT. For instance a tiny galaxy that won't show up at all in a shot with the lens will look great with the 20". A wide Milky Way shot isn't possible with the 20" but is easy with the lens. The 20" will obviously have greater resolution than the lens. If you can find an object that can at least sort of be imaged by both the 20" and the lens - in other words something that will show up and have some discernable detail in both - there will be vast differences in the size of the object in each and the level of detail in each and possibly the brightness of the object in each. The exposure times may be different or may be somewhat similar due to the differences in the total number of photons collected (aperature) vs the concentration of those photons (F ratio). I don't know it but I am sure there is some math that could describe the differences between total photons and concentration and allow you to compare various combinations of aperature and ratio, but unless you know the math I think it is safest to just say that when comparing similar aperatures faster F-ratio has advantages due to shorter exposure times assuming the faster optics are as good a quality and do not producer more or worse abberations than the slower optics and conversly when comparing two scopes with similar F-ratio the larger aperature will allow better resolution and collect more total photons. If you are comparing ONLY exposure times I am sure that there is a point where a larger F8 scope will allow as short an exposure as a small F2 scope but I won't swear to that. Aperature and F-ratio also combine with other things such as imager pixel size, seeing, mount accuracy and so on. I believe it is Craig Stark that has a great explanation of all of this on his blog. In the end they both matter and the thing to do is get as big a scope with as fast an F-ratio as you can afford! That may sound like a cop out rather than an explanation but I really feel that the only valid way to compare aperature and F-ratio is in specific combinations along with the camera being used and so forth. In Craig's blog that I referenced above he gives some specific examples of why this is so.
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Dan478
super member
Reged: 10/30/08
Posts: 144
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John,
It appears that this will work with a Classic LX200 10" with a DSLR Canon D40.
But my secondary only has the 3 Collimation screws, not the 6 screws the Hyperstar requires on the secondary, and would require purchase of their secondary adapter, which looks a little pricey.
I will be reading more about this devise and following the threads regarding Hyperstar.
Thanks for the information John.
-------------------- Dan
Southern California
LX-200 10" Classic
Canon 40D (unmodified)
Astronomik CLS LP Filter
6.3 Focal reducer
Link to my observatory and imaging site:
http://dansastroimages.blogspot.com/
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dawsonian2000
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 07/26/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Riverview, FL, USA
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Those images are out of this world; no pun intended. When I read about the hyperstar in Astronomy Technology Today magazine, I could not believe the images this device was capable of producing! Exposure times were drastically reduced and contrast shot through the roof! Yes, the Hyperstar in your capable hands truly rocks! 
Congrats!
Mel
-------------------- Clear Skies, Forever!
The Vega Sky Center
10" (254mm) F/5.65 Homebuilt Fork Mounted Newtonian Reflector
5" (127mm) F/9.4 Homebuilt Refractor
4" (100mm) F/13 Carton Homebuit Refractor (coming soon!)
3.1" (80mm) F/6 Scopos ED APO Refractor
4.5" (114mm) F/8 Tasco 11te-5 Newtonian (under restoration)
2.4" (60mm) F/16.7 Tasco 7te-5 Refractor
2.4" (60mm) F/15 Jason Discoverer 313 Refractor
http://www.vega-sky-center.com
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Psyire
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: 55* North
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John, thanks very much for sharing these images and information with us. I'm extremely close to pulling the trigger on a hyperstar setup for my C11. I am however very curious as to what you'll be able to accomplish with say 300sec subs compared to the relatively short 35sec ones.
My only real issue with moving forward is the arcsec/pixel ratio for the C11 Hyperstar with my Canon 450D is around 2 and this is almost too much for my taste. I would much perfer closer to 1 arcsec/pixel range and this talk of using a 1.4x tele-extender peaks my interest further. I think it would be tough to beat a imaging system that combines large aperature, fast F/ratio with a arcsec/pixel ratio near the 'seeing' limit.
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com
Edited by Psyire (10/01/09 12:31 AM)
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Samir Kharusi
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 1076
Loc: Oman
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Quote:
So tell me, does focal ratio matter and how does this fit in with the whole f/ratio myth? I need clarification please.
Both absolute aperture (diameter or sq in) and focal ratio count, of course, but in different ways. To make a decent astro image you need a very long integration time. The integration time and the absolute aperture (sq in of photon-bucket area) determine how many photons you have captured from your target. But these are quite useless if you cannot extract them from the skyfog noise. In general, the skyfog, even at the darkest locations on Earth or in near Earth orbit, is brighter than the dimmest parts of the nebula that you are trying to image.
Now the detector comes in. There is a limit in electron-well depth and most detectors' electron wells will be saturated and overflow if you shoot a single 3-hour exposure with most OTAs (just ignore the thermal noise from the detector itself, controllable by chilling the CCD). So we have to make up the total integration time by taking shorter sub-exposures. But these subs cannot be infinitely short, otherwise we cannot process out the skyfog properly. That skyfog has to fall (on the histogram) on a region where the detector behaves linearly and is unencumbered by Read Noise of the sensor. A fast Focal Ratio enables the subs to be short (30sec at f2, 1min at f2.8, 2min at f4, etc) even if you are at the darkest site on Earth.
So, in brief, the shortest subs you can get away with is determined by your Focal Ratio. The dimmest part of the nebula that you can image at a given Signal to Noise Ratio is determined by Integration Time and how many sq.inches your photon bucket has. The Hyperstar excels on both counts, fast focal ratio (f1.9 to f2) and large bucket area. APOs fail on both counts, slow focal ratio (typically f5 to f7 meaning subs no shorter than 3 to 6minutes each) and a bucket area at one quarter to one sixth that of a C11 or C14.
Longer and ever longer subs with a Hyperstar; will they do much good? The Hyperstars, while they have a very flat (not curved) image field, show severe vignetting (easily corrected by flats). Consequently the skyfog peak on the histogram is very broad. The corners of the frame need much longer subs than the middle. 30sec subs are ample for the darkest sites for the middle of the frames. For the corners, at a very dark site, one needs closer to 60sec frames. Going to 180sec frames may start chopping off the dynamic range (for the middle of the frames) unduly. For narrowband I found 90sec frames at my heavily light polluted home adequate, but I presume one could benefit from, say, 3 minute subs shooting narrowband at a dark site, perhaps even slightly longer if the filter is very narrow. Of course, in general, we do not care that much about stuff at the corners of the frames. All we want is a sky background that looks reasonably noise-free. So in practice there is not much going in favour of shooting subs much longer than, say, 60sec each when imaging in white light.
This is how severe the vignetting is: My review of a C14 Hyperstar is available here. and how short you can go with subs on any OTA I discuss here.
-------------------- Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/
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Psyire
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: 55* North
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Thanks Samir, that really clears up a lot of questions I had. Obviously I really overshot on my comment on 300sec exposures.. still I'm having trouble grasping that 60-90sec is all you really need. Wow.
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com
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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 841
Loc: Springfield, MO
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Psyire,
It was really hard for me to believe at first that 30-90 seconds would produce good images as well but it is true! Heck, I even got my first ever H-Alpha image (6nm filter) with only 90 second subs! Unfortunately it was in an area with quite a bit of field rotation so the final image has some issues related to that but once I get the OTA on the EQ (just de-forked it last night) I should be able to get good H-Alpha subs with 90 to (I am guessing) perhaps 120 seconds and come up with a nice final image.
-------------------- John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com
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Samir Kharusi
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 1076
Loc: Oman
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Example of 90sec subs through a 7nm Ha and an 8nm OIII, shot separately then combined: Details and larger version (looks brighter) here.
-------------------- Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/
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Bowmoreman
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 4152
Loc: Bolton, MA
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I've had my Hyperstar about 8 weeks now, and am loving it. At first, I took subs that were too long!
Now, my latest, is this Pelican - no darks, no flats, no bias... just 17x30 seconds on my QHY8...
Next chance I get, I'm shooting a ton of flats, etc... and then re-processing this...
Note that this is from a night when the moon was out...
Clear enough skies
-------------------- Dave
Imaging: MI-250+ADM/SBS/Optec Libra: C11Hyperstar,TMB80SS
Visual: XT10i RTP
EP: 31T5,22T4,17T4,12T4,13Ethos,10XW,8Ethos;2x Powermate,Paracorr, 1.6X Antares, Hyperion8-24Zoom
Cameras: Mallincam Color Hyper Plus, QHY8
Guider: SBIG STV eFinder
Key Add-ons: Gerbings Heated clothes, WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO#90), Speco 9"Monitor
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bardo
super member
Reged: 09/13/09
Posts: 155
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Example of 90sec subs through a 7nm Ha and an 8nm OIII, shot separately then combined: Details and larger version (looks brighter) here.
that is an awesome shot!
-------------------- Canon 350D unmodified
vixen GP with autostar
Celestron C80ED
celestron C8
SSSAG
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PatHolland
member
Reged: 10/11/09
Posts: 50
Loc: Clever, Missouri
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John, you've convinced me. My 14" scope and hyperstar are on their way to me now.
-------------------- Meade LX200GPS 14" w/Hyperstar
Meade LX200ACF 10"
Explore Scientific 80mm APO
Orion Starblast 4.5 (Imaging)
Meade DS-2130ATS (Grab 'n Go)
Orion StarShoot Pro V.2
Orion StarShoot SS III
Meade LPI, DSI 1 & II
Canon 450D Hap Modded
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netwolf
member
   
Reged: 09/03/05
Posts: 98
Loc: NSW, Australia
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Amazing work John.
I have a Fastar C8 and have been thinking of moving to a C11 Fastar. But I also have a SXVF-H9 (a scratch on the sensor but flats take care of that easily). I am thinking the C8 is still a good contender for the Hyperstar, maybe not for a DSLR but certainly for say a Qhy8 even better a Qhy8pro or the round Startlight Xpress cameras.
Reagrds Fahim
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