canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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The Feb. 28, 2008 LPOD reproduces a topographic color-coded NASA JPL south polar map. http://lpod.wikispaces.com/February+28,+2008
From this one can see that south polar mountains M1 and M3 rise about 6 kilometers from their surrounding terrain.
When look at Tom Bash's high libration south polar image (http://www.lpod.org/?m=20070106 labeled at bottom), one can see how Cabeus A and Cabeus A1 sit near the foot of M1.
Bash's image and the known height of M1 at about 6km gives me some sense of the vertical scale against which to imagine an LCROSS ejecta plume that is 5km high. The LCROSS lampshade model at its brightest is 5km tall, with 3km expected to appear above the target crater’s rim. At the extreme southwest lunar pole, length and width distances are distorted by foreshortening while the vertical dimension has almost no foreshortening.
Clear Skies and Happy Impact Imaging - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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P.S. Bash image with hyperlink active:
http://www.lpod.org/?m=20070106
- K
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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Imaging an ejecta curtain pattern on the surface around the crater the night after the impact?
It occurs to me that the geometry of the impact curtain and crater lip is such that some of the ejecta curtain will fall outside the rim of the crater onto the surrounding lunar plain. See my model at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090920CraterPlumeSim.JPG
Perhaps another imaging challenge would be for the night after the impact.
Might it be possible to image the surface around the crater and see any evidence of a change in surface brightness, e.g. rays, patches? Or will the dust in the ejecta cloud be so dispersed by the time it breaches the crater rim, that there will not be enough dust to register a change that can be picked up by Earth based amateurs?
Such speculating. It may be worth throwing a camera on it during the morning of Oct 10 just for the giggles.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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A Martian example of an ice layer exposed by small meteor impact
Science NASA News 9-24-2009
Meteorite Impacts Expose Ice on Mars
"[A] fresh, 6-meter-wide, 1.33-meter-deep crater on Mars photographed on Oct. 18, 2008, and again on Jan. 14, 2009, by Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter's HiRISE camera. The bright material is ice, which fades from Oct. to Jan. because of sublimation and obscuration by settling dust. "
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/24sep_martianice.htm?list864576
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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A repost from the main lunar list just to capture this important press conference in the LCROSS thread:
The Chandrayann-1 NASA Press briefing of 9-24-2009 is available on NASA-YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?v=je0FviGlBz8&user=NASAtelevision
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
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LCROSS Surface Brightness around Cabeus and Cabeus A1
From the data slice from an image at 68% illuminated fraction in the USGS ROLO lunar image archive, I get an amateur estimate of 3.8 mpsas +- 8% for the lunar surface north of Cabeus A1.
My estimate is based on draft computations at:
http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090927mpsaskaf/20090928ROLOCabeusAmpsas.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/y98x3rg
Considering uncertainty in the max ejecta plume brightness at 4.0 mpsas, the surface brightness estimate is not significantly different in brightness from the plume itself. Presumably, the plume will be brighter than the Earth visible shadowed portion of Cabeus A1, just as the 3.8 mpsas surrounding surface is brighter than the shadowed portion of the crater.
If the final selected LCROSS target is moved from Cabeus A1 to Cabeus proper, the signficance of the surface brightness for amateur imagers discussed above does not changed as a result of a target change.
This is an amateur estimate and not suitable for citation or news reporting purposes.
As to pre-impact imaging practice all analogous illuminated fraction opportunities have now passed. For pre-impact gear shakedowns, I recommend regardless of the Moon's altitude to practice exposure calibration via the technique demonstrated in David Dockery's 9-27-2009 slide:
http://home.comcast.net/~dave.dockery/LCROSS_Practice_9_26.pdf
You objective is to take an image at high effective focal lengths and make sure a line profile across the bright surface going through the shadowed portion of a small crater is sufficient that your well capacity will pick up any changes in the shadowed portion of the crater. Be sure to open stored images and run a line profile. Do not rely on just eyeballing the preview window. In Dockery's test, he has slightly underexposed the image. The crater shadow portion of the line profile should be higher from the 0 well capacity point. That way, if anything happens in the crater shadow during the impact, you will pick it up.
Any small crater near the limb and and 20 selenographic degrees from the terminator will suffice. Since you are during a photometric exposure test, seeing and sharp resolution do not matter. Remember although the Moon is low now (Sept. 28) on the morning of the impact, it will be at about 70 deg alt for most of North America.
Clear Skies and happy impact imaging -
Kurt canopus56@yahoo.com
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canopus56
sage
   
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LCROSS NASA LCROSS Team changes final target to Cabeus proper
Details of the precise target location within Cabeus (98 km dia. http://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Cabeus ) presumably will be announced later. - Kurt
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NASA's LCROSS Mission Changes Impact Crater Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:26:48 PM MDT http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LCROSS/main/index.html
MOFFETT FIELD, Calif. -- NASA's Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite mission (LCROSS) based on new analysis of available lunar data, has shifted the target crater from Cabeus A to Cabeus (proper).
The decision was based on continued evaluation of all available data and consultation/input from members of the LCROSS Science Team and the scientific community, including impact experts, ground and space based observers, and observations from Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), Lunar Prospector (LP), Chandrayaan-1 and JAXA's Kaguya spacecraft. This decision was prompted by the current best understanding of hydrogen concentrations in the Cabeus region, including cross-correlation between the latest LRO results and LP data sets.
The general consensus of lunar experts led by the LCROSS science team is that Cabeus shows, with the greatest level of certainty, the highest hydrogen concentrations at the south pole. Further consideration of the most current terrain models provided by JAXA's Kaguya spacecraft and the LRO Lunar Orbiter Laser Altimeter (LOLA) was important in the decision process.The models show a small valley in an otherwise tall Cabeus perimeter ridge, which will allow for sunlight to illuminate the ejecta cloud on Oct. 9, and much sooner than previously estimated for Cabeus. While the ejecta does have to fly to higher elevations to be observed by Earth assets, a shadow cast by a large hill along the Cabeus ridge, provides an excellent, high-contrast, back drop for ejecta and vapor measurements.
The LCROSS team concluded that Cabeus provided the best chance for meeting its mission goals. The team critically assessed and successfully advocated for the change with the Lunar Precursor Robotic Program (LPRP) office. The change in impact crater was factored into LCROSS' most recent Trajectory Correction Maneuver, TCM7.
During the last days of the mission, the LCROSS team will continue to refine the exact point of impact within Cabeus crater to avoid rough spots, and to maximize solar illumination of the debris plume and Earth observations.
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 959
Loc: Waco, TX
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Is the exact time of impact available yet? I think when the 4:30 am PDT time was first posted, NASA said that it is accurate to +- 30 min, and a time precise within a second would be given two weeks before impact. But I can't find an announcement of the exact time.
-------------------- Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm GSO SV, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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canopus56
sage
   
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"The impact time is approximately 11:30 UT, or 4:30 a.m. PDT, 5:30 a.m. MDT and 6:30 a.m. CDT. The impact time will be known to within one second approximately nine hours before impact. The updated impact time will be posted online at http://www.nasa.gov/lcross ."
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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Updated how-to-observe slide presentation
I have updated my slide presentation on how to observe the LCROSS impact for the 9-27-2009 change in the target crater.
Slide presentation as PDF file (16 meg) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090916LCROSSImpactUpdate.pdf http://tinyurl.com/pfujnv
MS Powerpoint version (12 meg) http://members.csolutions.net/fisherka/astronote/observed/LCROSS/20090915LCROSSImpactUpdate.ppt http://tinyurl.com/pbb7pw
These are also linked off the LCROSS Observing Group "how to observe" page at:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/observing-how-to
Clear skies - Kurt
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Ricky
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/09/03
Posts: 2363
Loc: Nor Cal
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Thanks for all of the info. on the upcoming impact...im hoping to capture something using my Intes M703 MCT and Toucam pro II webcam...<crossing fingers>
-------------------- Regards Ricky
_______________
ADM Mount w/SiTech GoTo
WO ZS66
Orion Autoguider
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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Here's hoping. - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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Get your NASA LCROSS Citizen Science page accounts now
This is a suggestion concerning the official NASA LCROSS site to submit your impact images at the LCROSS Citizen Science page hosted on a NASA server at url:
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/
To post and share your images with the rest of the nation, you will need to establish an account with NASA at that site.
To avoid a possible internet clog on the day of the impact, I recommend if you do intend to image and submit, that you establish your account at NASA now, instead of waiting until Oct. 9.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
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Weather update
The NOAA seven day national forecast for the period ending Oct. 8 shows highs over the central and northern U.S. with a low pressure zone over Baja, possibly extending up to southern californa.
http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/medr/day7nav_color.html
Clear Skies, Kurt
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Freddy WILLEMS
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/13/05
Posts: 2920
Loc: Hawaii, Honolulu
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Just hit this post.
I will be on standby here in Hawaii for imaging.
I guess it will occur around 1:30 AM october 9 here in Hawaii. Can somebody confirm that ?
Please do keep the exact time updated. I really do not want to miss this event.
-------------------- Freddy
Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier
Celestron C 14" Peltier cooled for planetary imaging.
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED
DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D Unmoddified
Canon 40D Hutech moddified
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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Refined impact coordinates and times
In the LCROSS Observation newsgroup, Brian Day, the LCROSS Public Outreach officer, has posted the following refined impact coordinates. For amateur impact observing, these coordinates will not change significantly between now an the Oct. 9 impact that a change will effect telescope pointing:
Centaur: S84.675, W47.725 (311.275E) 9 Oct 2009 11:31:30 UTC
SSC: S84.729, W49.36 (310.64E) 9 Oct 2009 11:35:45 UTC
Using Jim Mosher's LTVT software ( http://ltvt.wikispaces.com/LTVT ), I have plotted a best impact fit on an aerial view chart. Only the Centaur impact is shown. The shepherding satellite impact is so close that the position difference is not material for Earth observing.
http://tinyurl.com/y8zy4ck
As noted upthread, "The impact time is approximately 11:30 UT, or 4:30 a.m. PDT, 5:30 a.m. MDT and 6:30 a.m. CDT. The impact time will be known to within one second pproximately nine hours before impact. The updated impact time will be posted online at http://www.nasa.gov/lcross ."
http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/about/
Clear Skies - Kurt
P.S. - Brian's communication reads in full:
------ MoonThumper Oct 2, 1:20 pm From: MoonThumper <brianh...@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Correction to Coordinates and Times Final LCROSS Centaur and SSC target coordinates (Lat., Lon. in ME) Centaur: -84.675, 311.275 E SSC: -84.729, 310.64 E Elevations (Assumed Lunar radius: 1737.4 km): Centaur target elev: -3.82693 km SSC target elev: -3.80909 km Impact Times: Centaur: 9 Oct 2009 11:31:30 UTC SSC: 9 Oct 2009 11:35:45 UTC
Note: These are nominal impact positions and times. Actual impact times based on TCM results may differ (see next slide for uncertainties)
Original message:
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/browse_thread/thread/2e9016c356bc0d71
------
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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Updated LCROSS Team Visualization of Plume Height and Impact Site
From the LCROSS Citizen Science Page posted 10-3-2009:
A. Colaprete (Principal Co-investigator). 10-2-2009. Targeting Coordinates, Timing, Finder Charts and the LCROSS Centaur and SSC [Shepherding Satellite] Impacts
http://apps.nasa.gov/media/lcross/files/2009/10/03/LCROSS_Target_Update_100209.pdf
(Kurt's note: Check out simulated impact Earth views at slides 9 to 16).
Plume Height Visualization Simulated Earth View Image posted 10-3-2009 http://apps.nasa.gov/lcross/observations/details/43/
Clear Skies - Kurt
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Freddy WILLEMS
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 11/13/05
Posts: 2920
Loc: Hawaii, Honolulu
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Hi Kurt
Very interesting update.
Please do keep us posted about the exact time of impact.
Will use the Meade 14' and C14" with both camera's.
Hopefully it's clear that night.
I guess Hawaii impact time will be at 1.30 AM October 9 morning.
-------------------- Freddy
Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier
Celestron C 14" Peltier cooled for planetary imaging.
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED
DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D Unmoddified
Canon 40D Hutech moddified
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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To Freddy, Good hunting on the imaging. - Kurt
----- LCROSS Weather update resource
I have created a page with weather resource links for use with the LCROSS impact.
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/weather-updates
Based on NOAA forecasts issued 10-3-2009, a front passes through the pacific northwest on Oct. 8, leaving clear skies over California on the morning of Oct. 9. Washington, Idaho, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona are shown on the NOAA sky cover prediction map with some sky cover, but clearing. Two high zones dominate the western United States. Southern California is predicted to have morning fog or haze.
- Clear Skies - Kurt
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canopus56
sage
   
Reged: 05/01/05
Posts: 459
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LCROSS impact imaging - banked cooled CCD imaging strategy
I have suggested that the best imaging strategy for the LCROSS impact is lucky imaging using fast subsec captures with mid- to high- range planetary cameras (e.g. ImageSource and Luminera). This strategy seeks to capture at 15 fps and get maybe 8 to 10 crisp images across the 40 second key duration of the impact event. Lucky imaging involves taking many images at sub-second intervals to capture about 8 to 10 crisp images during still air moments in atmospheric turbulence.
But cooled DSO CCD cameras also are widely dispersed in the amateur community. In a discussion with a New Mexico amateur, Dave Dockery, he suggests that traditional cooled CCDs have a performance advantage that favors their use - a deeper dynamic range.
This note summarizes my thinking from that discussion and concludes that clubs with many cooled CCD imagers and few planetary cameras may want to try a banked cooled CCD imaging strategy.
An SBIG10 has a minimum readout time of about 4 seconds. Over 40 seconds, it would collect about 8 to 10 images. This is inconsistent with a lucky imaging strategy that relies on subsecond exposure capture rates to increase the probability of capturing crisp images in still air. While CCDs with long-read out times can be used, the probability of have a seeing distorted image increases. In contrast, a low-end and lower resolution, uncooled Meade DSI can read out at essentially video capture frame speeds.
An planetary camera can capture AVI frames quickly, e.g. - 30 to 15 frames per second - but at a lower dynamic range. The dynamic range of an astronomy camera refers to the signal strength of its lowest detectable signal as compared to the signal strength of its highest detectable signal. Dynamic range can be expressed using the decibal scale. The decibal scale is familar to most people with respect to terresterial noises. The dynamic range of a low-end 99 USD LPI camera might be 16db. The dynamic range of a high-end CCD, with a low-readout speed, might have a dynamic range of 80db (Apogee Instruments (CCD) Alta U32 CCD Camera). Specialty low light video cameras will take AVI frames quickly, but also have a higher db range. Modern uncooled lunar imaging cameras (e.g. Image Source) will capture fast frames (15 fps) and have a db maximum of 36db.
What this means for practical LCROSS plume imaging is that if you calibrate your exposure time so the lunar mountain M1 is not overexposed but you use enough gain so that the shadowed region of west Cabeus is not pegged below 0 pixel values, an LPI might not have enough dynamic range to pick up an unexpectedly fainter plume, although it will capture many crisp frames. Conversely, a cooled CCD may see an unexpectedly fainter plume due to its higher dynamic range, but since it captures frames at only 1 for every four seconds, the brightest part of the impact plume may begin and end between the camera's capture frames and not be seen at all.
One cooperative imaging strategy for local clubs that have several interested cooled CCD owners is banked imaging. In this strategy, CCD owners could self-organize themselves and set up in observing banks of three or four CCD imagers. The CCD imagers would need to determine the read-out and auto-repeat time of their cameras. On a voice "go" signal, each imager would start their CCD cameras with a time offset of let's say half-second intervals.
With a CCD banked strategy, three or four CCD imagers would increase their chances that would of their cameras would capture a "deep dynamic" range image of the shadowed portion of west Cabeus at the critical moment. Everyone may not capture an image showing a plume, but at least one of you might.
The final selection of a plume imaging strategy is a camera user judgment call that should be made considering the inherent camera response characteristic tradeoffs discussed above. There is not necessarily a right or best answer because there is uncertainty as to exactly how bright the plume will get.
Clear Skies - Kurt
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