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Observing >> Variable Star Observing and Radio Astronomy

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btieman
sage


Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 481
Ensemble photometry techniques? new
      #3380145 - 10/09/09 10:41 AM

I'm more interested in techniques for time series measurements such as planetary transits, but any information is helpful.

I've been focusing on increasing the precision of me measurements and so haven't dug deeply into the ensemble toolkit yet, but now I'd like to start. It's been suggested to me in the past that for time series differential light curves one option is to perform the differential photometry on pairs of stars (V-C1, V-C2, etc...) then remove systematics from each LC and then combine the data. Other's ahve suggested combining the check stars from a single frame into a single check star and then doing the differential (V-{C1,C2, etc}).

So my questions:

1) Which is the more accepted option? Are there other options?

2) What is the best combination methode? Add the ensemble measurements together? Average the ensemble measurements?

3) Anything else one should be aware of?

Thanks!!!

Brian

--------------------
CPC 1100
Orion 120st
Milburn Wedge
QSI 520i
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StupendousMan
member


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 95
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: btieman]
      #3380207 - 10/09/09 11:06 AM

My recommendation is to follow the technique described by Honeycutt in his paper on inhomogenous ensemble photometry:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1992PASP..104..435H&db_key=AST&high=416a79eb0026781

The basic idea is to use _all_ the stars in a field as references, but to give more weight to the bright ones, and the ones which appear in the largest number of frames.

I've written code to perform this sort of calculation. See

http://spiff.rit.edu/ensemble/

Let me know if you have questions.


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groz
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Reged: 03/14/07
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Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: StupendousMan]
      #3380714 - 10/09/09 04:20 PM

I've been thinking thru this question a bit today, and, on a high level, I think this is the direction we have to head brian, if we are to reduce that 5.5mmag number we've kind of bumped into.

Now, the process I've been thinking thru is just 'thoughts on the principles' as I've been driving around town doing various errands, but, I think it's valid.

Looking at what we do now for V-C1, in reality, there are 4 terms in there. V comes with n1 (uncertainty of n, or, more precisely, the amount of noise in V), and C1 comes with n2, another uncertainty value. The scatter we see in our plots is essentially n1+n2. So, now lets look at each individually, and, suddenly there is a way to think this thru conceptually.

Our V-C1 is actually V-C1+n1+n2. n1+n2 is the uncertainty we have, and, the thing we want to minimize at this point. Since n2 comes from a single star, and it's the target star, on a single frame, there is nothing we can do about n2, but, we can do something about n1. it's no different than stacking frames in time to reduce final image noise, here we want to reduce the noise component in the check star. So, we 'stack check stars'.

So, if we are using the same annulus and aperture for each of our check stars, it stands to reason, simple addition of c1+c2+c3 in reality is c1+c2+c2+3n. But, if we do it just a little differently, and instead, make an artificial aperture, and an artificial annulus. Into the artificial aperture we put the sum of 10 check stars, raw data, and into the artificial annulus we put the sum of the 10 sky backgrounds, raw data. We've essentially created an artificial 'check star' which has a much higher snr than any one individual check star. So, take these sums now, divide by the number of stars in them, and now carry the calcs thru with _that_ as the ref star value.

This should reduce the noise in the 'check star' by a factor of sqrt(numstars). So, back to our original data, 5.5mmag scatter, that's 2.75 from the target, and 2.75 from the check. If the check star is actually 10 stars all glued together into the artificial star, that 2.75 should become 2.75/sqrt(10) or about 0.86. So, we _should_ now see the final scatter become 2.75+0.86 = 3.6, a reduction of 1.9.

This ofc only holds true if the full 5.5 scatter we are seeing is due to noise equally amongst the check and target star.

It should be possible to see if this holds, by simply taking data from one of the existing transits, generate the output from aip4win in raw form, then in the spreadsheet to the V-c1 calcs, but also do the ensemble calcs, and generate the V-ensemble plot at the same time.

Then again, maybe I've missed an important detail here, a little bit punchy today, sat up for the LCROSS non-event last nite, and only got about 4 hours sleep after that.


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StupendousMan
member


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 95
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: groz]
      #3380815 - 10/09/09 05:47 PM

That's a good way to think about it. Note that the numerical factors you've used assume that all stars have the same brightness and the same uncertainty, and are given the same weight in the calculation. In real life, that won't be true: some stars will be brighter, and ought to be given more weight than the faint ones.

It's fun to investigate these questions. Please have fun doing it! If you want to compare your results on some standard dataset, I'd be happy to run the numbers through the ensemble package and summarize the results.


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brianb11213
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Reged: 02/25/09
Posts: 2076
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Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: StupendousMan]
      #3380828 - 10/09/09 05:56 PM

The danger here is that the "ensenmble" result is invaid if any of the components are found to be variable. If you keep seperate V-C values there's no problem.

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StupendousMan
member


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 95
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: brianb11213]
      #3380930 - 10/09/09 07:09 PM

... which is why the ensemble method is designed to run in an iterative fashion. First, assume all reference stars are constant and solve for the magnitude and variation of each one. Then, discard any stars above some threshold in variability and re-run the solution with a smaller number of (more likely to be truly) constant stars. One can iterate manually or let the code do it for you.

In addition, if one uses 30 or 60 or 100 stars as references, a single variable star in the ensemble is less likely to cause errors than if one uses only 3 or 4 reference stars.


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walt r
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Reged: 02/13/07
Posts: 3458
Loc: Doylestown, PA
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: StupendousMan]
      #3381186 - 10/09/09 10:06 PM

Wow, you guys are really thinking this through.
Have any of you looked through the AAVSO photometer newsgroup posts. Ensemble photometer techniques has been discussed there a few times. The posts are available in the archives here.

--------------------
Walt

Obsession 18" f/4.45 #1370 AN/SC
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btieman
sage


Reged: 07/24/08
Posts: 481
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: walt r]
      #3381290 - 10/09/09 11:17 PM

I poked through the archives once a while back. Good thing you mentioned it though as I forgot to up my membership! Probably time to go back and poke through again--the one thing I remember that stands out is *don't submit ensemble results because they can't corrected later* This was mostly in regards to variable stars--if you submit ensemble and the check star is refined, there's no way to go back and account for the change. This goes back to my insistance in reporting as raw of data as you can--but then again, I write data acquisition code for a national laboratory...Anyway, this doesn't really pertain to exoplanets which is my interest at the moment...

As far as trying out ensemble photometry, I had a 30 day trial of Mira Pro which does weighted ensemble photometry. I tried one of my better data sets first as standard aperture photometry. The scatter was worse than AIP4Win--although just barely. Then I tried a 5 star ensemble and the scatter got worse still. Then I tried 20 stars and waited a long time for the numbers to crunch while the program looked frozen. The scatter was worse still. Now, it's likely I wasn't doing something right, but I got so discouraged at the way Mira runs that I gave up trying things. First, it needs to load *all* images--this is a problem when I have a dataset with 600 frames! Then it becomes totally unresponsive the entire time it's trying to crunch numbers--once I waited over an hour but finally had to kill the application My trial is up in a day or two and I've learned nothing except that I'm not paying what they're asking.

Thinking about ensemble though, don't the stars have to be normalized to the *local* background. I don't think Groz's idea of dumping all the apertures into one big aperture and dumping all the annulus into one big annulus is the right thing to do. Especially when the moon is out, I have a gradient across my field. It's subtle--but so is a mmag. So that means I shouldn't do (V/Ave(BGV) - (C1+C2+C3)/Ave(BG1+BG2+BG3)) But then I don't think (V/Ave(BGV) - (AVE(C1/Ave(BG1), C2/Ave(BG2), C3/Ave(BG3)) is going to have a higher precision than the normal (V/Ave(BGV) - C1/Ave(BG1)). Am I wrong here?

Brian

--------------------
CPC 1100
Orion 120st
Milburn Wedge
QSI 520i
Meade DSI Pro


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brianb11213
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Reged: 02/25/09
Posts: 2076
Loc: 55.215N 6.554W
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? new [Re: btieman]
      #3381608 - 10/10/09 06:28 AM

Quote:

Thinking about ensemble though, don't the stars have to be normalized to the *local* background.



Sounds sensible to me, and I don't think the extra work is at all significant.


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StupendousMan
member


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 95
Re: Ensemble photometry techniques? [Re: btieman]
      #3381939 - 10/10/09 11:28 AM

Quote:

the one thing I remember that stands out is *don't submit ensemble results because they can't corrected later* This was mostly in regards to variable stars--if you submit ensemble and the check star is refined, there's no way to go back and account for the change.




The method I use to solve for the magnitudes in an ensemble leaves an arbitrary zero-point for the magnitude system. In other words, you can shift the relative magnitudes of all stars in the field up or down together by any amount you wish.

So, if you shift the zero-point so that the reference star of interest has its AAVSO (or other) magnitude, your results can indeed be adjusted later if the magntiude of that star changes -- just as if you had used that single star as the only reference.


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