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Equipment Discussions >> Binoculars

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ronharper
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Posts: 1276
100 Her at 8x
      #3384682 - 10/12/09 12:33 AM

Last summer I reported splitting 100 Her with a 10x50 Fujinon.

Two nights ago, and again tonight I have split it with a new binocular for me, an 8x42 Zeiss FL. Although I could not see the split every time I looked, if I did not stare too hard and gave my eyes a minute's rest before trying again, I got it about three fourths of the times I tried, or maybe fifteen times total. The pattern was so small that I cannot say that the stars were circular dots, only that they appeared as bright spots separated by a dark space. The first time I looked at 8x, I only hoped to see the elongation, but lo and behold saw the split. I could hardly believe it, and have since put a good deal of effort into it before sticking my neck out like this.

What made this surprising result (5.9 and 6.0m, 14.2"x8=113.6" apparent) possible, I can only speculate. The small aperture, which produces smaller star spots than the 10x50, must have helped, as did the balanced components. Also, as I have by now observed enough with this bino to become fairly familiar with it, I have discovered that, like my other roof prism bino, the sharpest location within the field is not dead center, but a tad low, perhaps a tenth of the way to the edge. I only notice this when splitting doubles, perhaps because my dark adapted eyes make use of the entire aperture which is likely to contain flaws more near the edge of an optical path, and of course because of the severity of the test imposed by a point source. I was happy to see Glenn LeDrew, soon after he plunged into this forum with all four feet, mention that he commonly found the "sweet spot" off center, and attributed it to the place where his imperfect eyes and an imperfect binocular combined to best "null out" aberrations. I have seen other people complain of off center sweet spots as a bad thing, but Glenn seemed to accept it as logical and tolerable, and moved on and did the best he could, searching for and accepting, rather than fighting the condition.

I attempted to measure the resolution of this binocular (I say attempted because it is my only such measurement and therefore suspect, also I did not push the test to failure, but only looked at one target setting), as I reported on BirdForum. While I only tried a single target (four-direction line pattern) target at 3.4", I found one barrel to resolve it well, the other to resolve it well in three directions, but marginally in the fourth, the sign of astigmatism. Perhaps taking the image slightly off center nulled out the error in that barrel by introducing some astigmatism from the eyepiece, but would seem to have introduced errors in the other barrel, but I don't really know to what degree each of my eyes might be astigmatic, so yes this is quite speculative!

The result, however, is fairly consistent with another split I made when playing around with aperture stops on my 16x70 Fujinon. Then, I split Gamma Ari (4.8, 4.8m, 7.8"x16=124.6" apparent) with a 32mm aperture stop, giving dimmed-down small spots and a 2mm exit pupil, close to where the eye is said to perceive maximum sharpness. The 8x 100 Her result seems harder, being apparently closer and brighter, but actually seemed better visible than that result did at 16x.

I bought this embarrassingly expensive Zeiss for general daytime use and bird watching, in a fit of irritation at color fringing in the harsh light that seems to plague me, and it works admirably in that way.

The thread, 100 Her at 10x set off a nice buzz of activity last summer, in which several people split it at 10x, and some felt they were narrowly missing at lower powers. I hope somebody else will try it at 8x, crazy as it might seem. I really think the key ingredient for me was, I tried, even though I did not think it was possible, I just wanted to look at it, is all. The next to key ingredient is, not much social life.

Ron


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RichD
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: ronharper]
      #3384886 - 10/12/09 07:08 AM

Congratulations Ron! That is a pretty impressive observing feat. Your best double star observation to date maybe?

How long have you had the Zeiss? any mini reviews from yourself on here?

--------------------
Clear skies

Rich


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EdZModerator
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: RichD]
      #3384962 - 10/12/09 08:42 AM

Quote:

The small aperture, which produces smaller star spots than the 10x50, must have helped,




By this did you mean, the Zeiss is a higher quality image and all points appear finer?

I've seen this 14.2" pair separated in several 10x binoculars including the Fujinon and the ZRS10x42, and have seen it elongated in several other 10x binocs. I've seen it elongated in a Celestron Regal LX 8x42, but never separated at 8x.

edz

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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Philip Levine
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Reged: 03/22/07
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: ronharper]
      #3385004 - 10/12/09 09:21 AM

Hi Ron,
Thanks for the interesting read.
I'm new to binocular viewing and find posts like this are informative and helpful to fully understand and appreciate the sublties of binoculars.
Phil

--------------------
_________________________________________________

Zhumell 10" Dob (modified with degree circle and Wixey inclinometer)
26mm 2" GSO eyepiece
9mm 1.25" GSO eyepiece
13mm Nagler T6
Crayford focuser
DewBuster w/homemade heater strips
Nikon 10x50 EX binoculars
University Optics 11x80 binoculars
Fujinon 16x70 FMT SX
Surveyor Tripod w Universal Astronomics Parallelogram
member International Dark-Sky Association


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Maljunulo
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Reged: 07/31/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Connecticut
Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #3385158 - 10/12/09 11:32 AM

I have found it very easy in my 16X70 Fujinon, but haven't gotten around to trying the 10X70 Fujinon. In the 16X70 it is easy, even hand held, if I brace myself.

I don't have any 8X binoculars, so.........

Nice catch!


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Mark9473
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Maljunulo]
      #3385281 - 10/12/09 12:43 PM

Congratulations Ron! I was relieved to read in your previous thread, that I already split this one at 8.5x so that saves me the effort of trying again Great that you managed it at an even lower 8x.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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ronharper
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Mark9473]
      #3385785 - 10/12/09 05:47 PM

Thanks for the comments folks.

Rich,
I've had the Zeiss almost 3 months. I ranted about it over on BF, the usual excited incoherent and internally inconsistent kind of stuff I say. I honored you people by not making much noise over here, because it really is for birdwatching, so it would have been somewhat inappropriate.

Ed,
Yes, that's how it looks to me, which doesn't seem too surprising considering the lower magnification and aperture than the Fujinon.

Mark,
I kind of thought you had split it at 8.5x, and hoped you would say so again.

Everybody
The best I can hope for is not that my result shows that I am a great observer or that the Zeiss is the world's finest binocular, or any such nonsense, but simply that it can be done. I do think it takes practice, and the mastery of whatever equipment you use. Together we can get through this barrier, and the world will be a better place in one small way.
Ron


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Robert A.
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Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 294
Loc: Milwaukee, WI Northern USA
Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: ronharper]
      #3385816 - 10/12/09 06:08 PM

I am still trying to find things in the night sky--- This Hercules 100 is found not far from Mu Hercules? It could be said to be on the western leg of Hercules? It is not on my simple go-to star chart.
Thanks,
Rob


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rookie
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Reged: 01/14/06
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Robert A.]
      #3385877 - 10/12/09 06:45 PM

Hi Rob,
100 Her is in the eastern part of the constellation about 2 1/2 degrees south of Omicron Her. I find it by first locating the 4-sided polygon that includes Omicron-Xi-Nu-99 and then head south. It takes practice and this is a good target to improve your skills.

--------------------
SV
Scope: Celestron CPC8
Binoculars: Garrett GT80~45, Fujinon 16x70, Regals 10x42, Ultima 9x63, Nikon AE 8x40



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GlennLeDrew
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: rookie]
      #3386080 - 10/12/09 08:42 PM

Congrats, Ron! I now have a new challenge!

As reported in my thread on my home-made Mk II RA bno, I did see 100 Her split in the 9X60 configuration. And as Ron reminded us, I had to slightly de-center the pair either above or below the field center. This is to null out my own astigmatism, which when last checked was 3/4 to 1 diopter, both eyes afflicted with similar orientation (thank goodness). From experience, virtually all bino eyepieces introduce astigmatism of similar form, whereby I benefit hugely by placing the target a bit vertically offset.

--------------------
Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces

My Gallery

Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: ronharper]
      #3386660 - 10/13/09 06:05 AM

Quote:

The small aperture, which produces smaller star spots than the 10x50, must have helped

Mark, By this did you mean, the Zeiss is a higher quality image and all points appear finer?

Ed,
Yes, that's how it looks to me, which doesn't seem too surprising considering the lower magnification and aperture than the Fujinon.




I can under stand the difference in fineness of image. But, keep in mind, given equal image quality, a smaller aperture produces a larger spot size. For excellent quality, the smallest spot size (in arcseconds) you can get is 138/(binoc aper in mm). Magnification would be completely independant in this, since a lower magnification while it would generate a smaller image, would also move the objects closer together.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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ronharper
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: EdZ]
      #3387026 - 10/13/09 11:50 AM

Ed,
Thanks for pointing that out, and I hope it's appropriate to raise an issue here, about the sizes of star spots, that bothers me.

What you said is certainly correct in the case of diffraction limited optics, with enough magnification to see the Airy disc. We've both used telescopes at high magnification, and have seen them to really behave just about that way. But the sizes of star spots in binoculars looks larger than predicted by that, don't you think? For example, Alberio is an about 30 arcsecond double. But in a 7x or 8x binocular, the bright component takes up about half the space out to the secondary, meaning its spot is about 30 arcseconds in diameter, way fatter than predicted by the perfect optics prediction, which gives roughly one tenth that size.

Understanding the cause of this departure from optics predictions is at the heart of figuring out what makes an astronomy binocular tick. It is tempting to conclude that binoculars are just really bad compared to a perfect telescope, but the best boosted resolutions come out within a factor of two of ideal predictions, don't they? So I don't think they are THAT bad, and there's something big going on there not accounted for, possibly scattering in the eyes.

Higher quality optics produce tighter star spots than lower quality, but bright stars always look relatively big and fat. When I have experimented with aperture stops, the apparent sizes of star spots got smaller with reduced aperture, and I could make out closer splits. It's like when the intensity is high enough, you just cannot get all the light to go into a tiny spot.

Star spots are so small they are hard to say anything very certain about, but I would hazard that to a fair approximation, the surface brightness of star spots remains about the same over a range of magnitudes in a given binocular, but the sizes of the spots swells and shrinks with light content, like putting water into a balloon. This rash statement might be tested with boosted magnification, but if the effect is due to scattering in the eyes, the boosted test would not see it correctly.

How I do run on, thanks for reading though, and I would appreciate your or anybody's thoughts on the matter.
Ron


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Mark9473
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Robert A.]
      #3387326 - 10/13/09 02:46 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Quote:

I am still trying to find things in the night sky--- This Hercules 100 is found not far from Mu Hercules? It could be said to be on the western leg of Hercules? It is not on my simple go-to star chart.




This time of year in evening skies, 100 Her is "below" Lyra. See attached chart.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: ronharper]
      #3387366 - 10/13/09 03:07 PM

Lets stick with 100 Herc mag 5, and a 50mm binocular.

A 50mm lens has an Airy disk 138/50 = 2.76 arcsec. We can argue photopic or scotopic light, but lets not. That might change 2.76 to a 2.5 arcsec.

Assuming
a 50mm binoc, diffraction limited, will make stars into 2.76 arcsecond disks.
It would probably take about 60x to 75x to see that.


Resolution on a USAF line pairs chart would be about 70% (30% smaller than) that. So the same diffraction limited 50mm binoc at approx 75x sould be able to see 1.9 arcsec on a line pairs chart. We sometimes read that people are testing their binocs using a USAF chart and sometimes see a claim that they have reached the diffraction limit. What's missing here is they fail to address that the binoc should be able to see 30% smaller than the diffraction limit when using the line pair charts. No one that I'm aware of has ever reached the diffraction limit with any binocular when testing resolution on a line pairs chart.

As an example of this, I have two different 80mm diffraction limited scopes. Both have clearly resolved stars to the diffraction limit, about 1.7 to 1.65 arcseconds. Both have resolved down to 1.2 arcseconds using the line pairs charts. Both the line pairs readings and the point source (stars) resolution required approx 150x or even up to 200x to see it.

Keep in mind, when a scope employees enough power to resolve a pair of stars at the extreme diffraction limit, there is NO SPACE at all left between the disks. The star disks occupy 99.9% of the space.

If a 50mm lens were used at high enough power to approach the diffraction limit (2.76 arcseconds) and then back off just a little, say to 4 arcseconds, when viewing that 4 arcsec pair, the stars would occupy 70% of the space. If the stars were bright, say mag 3, then the stars might occupy 85% of the space, leaving only 15% of the space as the dark line separating the two components.

I’ve resolved 8 arcseconds on line pairs with a 10x50. I’ve resolved 3.0 arcsec on a line pairs chart at best with 10x50s boosted to 60 power with a small auxiliary scope. Also, I’ve seen 100 Herc, 14.2 arcsec mag 5 pair with 10x50s at best.

(Of special note here, I’ve resolved 3.2 arcseconds on a line pairs chart with the Takahashi 22x60 at it’s normal power of 22x and with the same binocular I’ve cleanly resolved 95 Herc, a 6.3 arcsec equal mag 5 pair).

So why can’t a low power binocular resolve pairs that are closer than 14 arcseconds ( speaking from my limit)? Why can’t a 10x50 see 2.76 arcseconds?

Well for one, you just can’t see that small at 10 power. But other reasons might be:

You are not seeing Airy disks with low power optics. You are seeing a star disk made up of the entire diffraction pattern, or at least some portion of the diffraction pattern. Even though a larger lens makes a smaller Airy disk than a smaller lens, neither lens at these powers is capable of seeing the Airy disk or the Airy pattern. And granted the rings get progressively dimmer, but the first ring might contain 15% of all the light, so at least some of the rings are include in the bloated star disk. This makes the star disk larger than the dimension calculated by the Airy disk formula.

Magnitude has a dramatic affect on the size of the visible disk, the central disk within the Airy pattern. In scope optics, at powers high enough to see the Airy disk, the visible disk of a mag 2 star might be 40% to 50% larger than that of a mag 6 star. However, other than the visible disk, magnitude does not have an effect of the overall dimensions of the elements of the diffraction pattern. But it might include more diffraction rings in the bloated disk. Considering this is a known phenomenon, it stands to reason that testing on a line pairs chart under too bright a light might have the same effect.

Combinations of fast optic aberrations swell the diffraction pattern to a larger size. Spherical and chromatic aberration and astigmatism would be likely culprits. There is no way that I know of to calculate the implications of these effects.

In binoculars, the combination of bright stars and fast optics swells stars to very large sizes. But indeed finer optics do produce smaller stars. Note the example from my recent tests of 22x binoculars. While the Takahashi 22x60 (note the considerable smaller aperture here) can resolve a 6.3 arcsec mag 5 pair, the GO Signature 22x85 can only resolve a 7.8 arcsec mag 5 pair. That would indicate that the star disks in the GO 22x85 are about 25%+/- LARGER than the Tak, whereas, due to the aperture, they should be 30%+/- smaller. The huge difference is due to the aberrations (or lack of) in the lens.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21

Edited by EdZ (10/14/09 07:21 AM)


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Robert A.
sage


Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 294
Loc: Milwaukee, WI Northern USA
Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: rookie]
      #3387380 - 10/13/09 03:11 PM

Thanks rookie,
I now have out a Sky Atlas 2000, chart 8. I do see it noted. My dyslexia is worst when I am trying to orient my star atlases. Yes, it is below the Eastern Leg of Hercules.
I see that Mu Hercules is not far from Chi Hercules , which is next to Nu Hercules. Then Omnicron Hercules is next.

To limber out another reference system that I am not used to using, It is -about- 26 degrees Declination, 18h, 10" Right Ascension. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Thank you very much,
Rob.


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Robert A.
sage


Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 294
Loc: Milwaukee, WI Northern USA
Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Mark9473]
      #3387390 - 10/13/09 03:15 PM

Thanks Mark! That is a very clear chart.
Sincerely,
Rob.


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Philip Levine
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Reged: 03/22/07
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: ronharper]
      #3387529 - 10/13/09 04:32 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Hi Ron,
Thanks yet again for the interesting post.
Please tell me more about binocular "aperature stops", what do you use? Can these by made by cutting out some round cardboard circles the size of the barrel ends, with precise size circle openings to let a smaller amount of light in?
Phil

--------------------
_________________________________________________

Zhumell 10" Dob (modified with degree circle and Wixey inclinometer)
26mm 2" GSO eyepiece
9mm 1.25" GSO eyepiece
13mm Nagler T6
Crayford focuser
DewBuster w/homemade heater strips
Nikon 10x50 EX binoculars
University Optics 11x80 binoculars
Fujinon 16x70 FMT SX
Surveyor Tripod w Universal Astronomics Parallelogram
member International Dark-Sky Association


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KennyJ

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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #3387621 - 10/13/09 05:17 PM

Interesting piece , EdZ ,

Just one little edit required ! :-)

< Even though a larger lens makes a smaller Airy disk than a larger lens, >

I suspect that second " larger " next to last word should have been " smaller " .

Kenny


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ronharper
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: Philip Levine]
      #3387656 - 10/13/09 05:35 PM

Phil,
That's exactly right. They make stars dimmer, and the spots smaller. In theory they can do several things:
1)Send light only through the center of the optical train, where aberrations are minimum.
2)By reducing the exit pupil, they send light only through the center of the eye, where its aberrations are also at a minimum.
3)Reduce the amount of light in each star spot, so that the effects of scattering off, for example, poor coatings in the binocular, or a cloudy lens or other medium in the eye, are dimmer and less apparent.

As EdZ says, it depends on the optical quality of the binocular. That part of it could be objectively measured, with a boosted magnification test. I think it also depends on the eye, in detailed and individually variable ways that might be experienced, but hardly measured, at least by no one less than an opthamologist. Knowing how these effects are divided up for our eyes, and our binoculars, would help to understand why stars appear the way they do. And for those of us who crave the sharpest possible image, that understanding would go a long ways towards helping us to get it.
Ron


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: 100 Her at 8x new [Re: KennyJ]
      #3388646 - 10/14/09 07:19 AM

Quote:

Interesting piece , EdZ ,

Just one little edit required ! :-)

< Even though a larger lens makes a smaller Airy disk than a larger lens, >

I suspect that second " larger " next to last word should have been " smaller " .

Kenny




that would be correct
edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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