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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2156
Loc: salem, OR
Roughness and its complement
      #3385731 - 10/12/09 05:16 PM

Here's a thread from the ever ebullient Wolfgang Rohr with lots of Lyot images of mirrors, mostly commercial, and some excellent links off to the side as well: Mirror roughness compared. Gleaned from Dave B's link in the Question on optical quality thread currently, but I don't recall seeing it before.

Good discussion, if you can parse the Googol translation. Brings to mind once again the defining feature of a top drawer mirror - smoothness. The test for the E and F stars in the Trapezium is convincing.

Thoughts?

Best,
Mark

Edited by mark cowan (10/13/09 12:21 AM)


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Mark Harry
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Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 3120
Loc: Northeast
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3385838 - 10/12/09 06:17 PM

I read the same thing this morning, interesting read! I agree wholeheartedly with the premise of smoothness, I also think that if the maker is familiar with a highly smooth microfinish, he will also have a good grasp of accuracy of figure as well. I've often said that smoothness and accuracy go hand in hand when talking about consistently excellent optics.
I've mentioned before about a year ago, I glimpsed "G" component with my 8. I think this goes without being said that smoothness definitely plays a part in this and similar capability described elsewhere from time to time.
I also think that this is the particular case when high figuring accuracy pays off. Lots of folks, who are well respected, and others who'd be better off in another field say to the contrary, that it's not worth the effort. The 1/4 wave "diffraction limit" 1/10th wave excellent mirror, no use figuring better than 1/16th wave, etc. all don't hold water when pushed to the true theoretical maximums with excellent conditions and eyes backing such optics up.
It has been mentioned that I waste my time in persuit of high smoothness, too. I've experimented with black/red rouge, with some interesting results. All I can say, everyone thought the world was -FLAT- once, and it was heresy to entertain anything to the contrary!
What's your thoughts on smoothness?
Mark

--------------------
So many projects, so little time!


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Mark Harry
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Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: Mark Harry]
      #3385856 - 10/12/09 06:29 PM

Thought about a couple other things:
1. I was suprised to learn Dave had the moxie to include links that specifically mentioned at least 3 mfrs I had exactly the same assessment that Rohr did. Didn't know that could be done here, but maybe I'm wrong. When his club's work is published, it would be interesting to peruse factual information.
2. There are interesting possibilities to be investigated with the substrate you work with primarily. It has the potential to be -very- smooth on account of its hardness.
M.

--------------------
So many projects, so little time!


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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2156
Loc: salem, OR
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: Mark Harry]
      #3386421 - 10/13/09 12:18 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

I'm one of those insane people who believe smoothness and an accurate figure add up to the best performance at the eyepiece, to the extent that more times than I'd care to count I've taken an otherwise finished mirror that exhibited surface roughness and reworked it from scratch until satisfied. I know it pays off - the hardest part is getting the techniques down to avoid adding roughness while figuring aspheres. I've no faith in claims that mirrors can be "smoothed" after figuring - it only takes a moments inattention to put roughness on the glass, but serious extended work to take it off again.

This brings to mind something I've discussed with several opticians, present company included, and that has to do with "perfect mirrors." They do happen, they have happened, and when they happen they go on to amaze people, as in drool-bucket time.

[post has been edited]

The difficult part is figuring out what the difference is between the ordinary fine mirror and these. Several examples of these come to mind, and I usually check them out pretty carefully to verify, but one thing stands out - in every case they showed Ronchi patterns while passing a handheld grating through the caustic of focus at ROC that was textbook and flawless. Ronchi is not supposed to be that sensitive (we're talking here differences at the 20th wave level or so, judging by the corresponding Foucault testing) but in motion I believe it yields information that's very hard to ignore, and when it shows no flaws at all the mirror inevitably performs like nobody's business.

A large part of the automation effort I've been engaged in the last few years is to obtain those kind of mirrors every time out.

[end edit]

Here's an example of smoothness on fused silica - this is a personal 14" f/4.6 I made last year for the ongoing prototype scope, and later sold, it was done fairly quickly and turned out only about 1/14th wave PVW, but was noticeably smooth in high-res Foucault imaging (reduced here). The stuff at the top is some water marks, the spot in the center the reflection off the back surface. I've found, in comparing Lyot and high-res Foucault imagery done by Dale Eason, that both capture the same level of detail, but the Lyot is like a contrast boost and of course it drops out the SA on the glass, so it's easier to see the whole surface. Under visual inspection with Foucault and grazing illumination there was nothing to see. What it is.

Best,
Mark

Edited by mark cowan (10/13/09 04:48 PM)


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Cary
Vendor (Optic Wave Labs)


Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 398
Loc: Rancho Cordova, CA
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3386428 - 10/13/09 12:25 AM

I find that I can create the smoothest surfaces by overcorrecting the mirror and then using strokes to bring it back to a parabola.

--------------------
Cary Chleborad
http://www.opticwavelabs.com



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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2156
Loc: salem, OR
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: Cary]
      #3386451 - 10/13/09 12:40 AM

Hi Cary,

Love to see some pictures. Different strokes - if it works it's good.

Best,
Mark


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
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Reged: 02/02/07
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Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3386618 - 10/13/09 04:58 AM

A naive question maybe, does a slow stroke equate to a smooth finish? or is it a result of substrate hardness and grit size?

--------------------
Jc

ATM 10" F6.1, 1/25th wave spec (max wavefront error +/- 1/12.6 in zone 4 of 6, sodium light )
6" F7 spec
127mm F9.4 Refractor
10 x 50 bin
ETX80 (finder)
Canon 20D
PST
DSI 1
and a curious mind



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PhilH
sage


Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 277
Loc: Long Island, NY
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: mark cowan]
      #3386675 - 10/13/09 06:34 AM

Quote:

One of those is the Pyrex mirror in a TScope that belongs to a member of Phil Harrington's club about which he said in StarWare, Volume 4, well, I can't quote it here without an OK but I can point out where it is quoted with permission: http://www.tscopes.com />



All,

Just passing by and thought I'd correct two things. First, TScopes did not ask for nor did they receive permission to use that passage.

And second, they are misquoting it. The actual paragraph in the book reads:
Quote:

The Type-3 Deluxe TScopes, usually referred to as T-3s, are similar in design and appearance to the original TScopes above, but use thicker wood, larger altitude bearings, and an all-metal primary mirror cell for improved stability and, naturally, slightly more weight. The T-3s also offer what Taychert calls his "Peerless Optical Package," which includes an Obsidian Optics primary mirror stated to be 1/20th-wave. I am a cynic by nature, so take these claims with a grain of salt. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say. After he looked through a T-3 Peerless TScope at a club observing session, a friend and experienced observer from New Hampshire related to me his impressions. "I'm rarely impressed by telescopes these days. I've pushed Dobsonians around with sticky motions, seen SCTs with horrific aberrations, and even looked through apochromatic refractors that seemed to be merely adequate. But a club member's 14-inch Tscope [with the Peerless Optical Package] had the best Newtonian views I have ever seen. I was told the mirror was 1/20th wave and had a Strehl Ratio of 0.996. While I have some skepticism about these numbers and know the complete optical system couldn't touch the mirror-only specs, the views were wonderful."




So, the statement about the mirror comes from a person in NH who I trust knows his stuff, but in fact, *I* did not look through that telescope personally.

File this under "FWIW."

--------------------
Phil Harrington
Contributing editor, Astronomy magazine
Author: Star Ware || Star Watch || Touring the Universe through Binoculars || et al...
Binocular Universe
http://www.philharrington.net
http://www.observingsites.com
"Two eyes are better than one!"


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Mark Harry
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Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: PhilH]
      #3386713 - 10/13/09 07:39 AM

To John C.
I've found that high stroke speed, plus alternating direction of stroke (with delicate but constant pressure) produces the smoothest surface out of my bag of tricks. If the polisher exibits the least amount of stickiness or 'snatch&grab' I stop right there to remedy the cause. You can tell if the glass is overcorrected, or zoney just by the feel of what's going on between glass and pitch. I want a neutral acting polisher. Not edge- or center- acting.
Paying attention to what's going on, with such a stroke, usually can get a sphere with little or no consternation. Also it eliminates a lot of backtracking, or doing over. I can't stress the aspect of stopping the instant the polisher is acting up.
This is what works for me, at least.

One area where I think a slower agenda might pay off big, is with flats; though I really haven't played with them for about 10 years or so since I discovered the fast oval stroke I mention above.
Mark

--------------------
So many projects, so little time!


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mark cowan
Vendor (Obsidian Optics)


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 2156
Loc: salem, OR
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: PhilH]
      #3387521 - 10/13/09 04:30 PM

Phil,

My apologies, I was misinformed. Thanks for the update - I'll pass it on to Ed who can ask you about it himself, if he so chooses. Actually, though it was misattributed by default, it's a better quote than I realized.

Also FWIW: I too am skeptical of claims of extreme optical quality, but feedback I've gotten from my own use as well as numerous experienced sources indicates that, when the bench test results are honest and well down in the uncertainty realm for Foucault, the secondary is of known high quality and the mirror support is good, then the mirrors show appropriate errors in star testing and perform to match their minimum specs (which are not the Foucault derived Strehls, though that goes by the board as soon as bragging commences). I'm implementing interferometric validation as the final step in production soon, and those are the only numbers that will go with the mirrors. In any case I'm not talking about numbers here, only performance, with an open puzzle to consider.

Best,
Mark

Edited by mark cowan (10/13/09 05:02 PM)


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Glig
sage


Reged: 10/02/05
Posts: 370
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: Cary]
      #3387797 - 10/13/09 06:52 PM

Quote:

I find that I can create the smoothest surfaces by overcorrecting the mirror and then using strokes to bring it back to a parabola.




Hi Cary what kind of strokes do you use for this? I notice some like tight circular or oval strokes for this task.

--------------------
Richard Caldwell





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Cary
Vendor (Optic Wave Labs)


Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 398
Loc: Rancho Cordova, CA
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: Glig]
      #3388509 - 10/14/09 02:11 AM

I use a W type stroke with a sub diameter tool to remove correction. I do all my figuring with sub diameter tools.

--------------------
Cary Chleborad
http://www.opticwavelabs.com



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neo
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 02/12/08
Posts: 609
Loc: Iasi, Romania
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: Cary]
      #3388568 - 10/14/09 04:08 AM

Very interesting discussion here!

Wolwgang Rohr's site/forum an amazing fountain of knowledge...if you pass the language troubles...

Talking about strokes and smooth mirrors...I hope I'm not to off topic with this, but just a question....what is the best approach for a 16", 1.18" thick mirror? To grind and polish with a full tool or a sub diameter one?
I'm asking cause it's possible to get a big blank in the near future and I know you guys have a lot of experience with big mirrors here in America. Surely I'd like to try my luck on a 16" mirror.

Thanks

Alex

--------------------
Russian 15x50 binos
Home made 8" f/5 Newton on eq mount
Home made 70mm f/6 (Rodenstock Rotelar lens) Apo refractor
www.astronomy.ro


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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 658
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: neo]
      #3388608 - 10/14/09 05:52 AM Attachment (12 downloads)

Worked my last mirror a 20 f 8 with a full sized polisher/ tool on top / long stroke all on one side /manual overarm on a tub grinder/last time i polished it, I polihed for 2 hrS continus very thin ceo /tested with a ronchi and knife edge THEN EDS ZYGO .No small polihers needed on that one .With a f 8 you can do that . Knife edge very strong at 27 ft away /

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 658
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3388613 - 10/14/09 05:59 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

here is the ronchi/ some air curents hand held camera

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 658
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3388617 - 10/14/09 06:09 AM

NO spin polishing . all stroke polishing .

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


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Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3388679 - 10/14/09 08:01 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

here is a pic of a 26.25 f 4.7 . You can tell alot from a ronchi this mirror was NOT done . the center is very rough the edge is turned but the mirror out from 14 inches is very smooth .

Edited by kfrederick (10/14/09 08:50 AM)


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kfrederick
professor emeritus


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Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3388692 - 10/14/09 08:17 AM Attachment (10 downloads)

autocolimate flat same 26 no work done between these three pic

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 658
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3388693 - 10/14/09 08:19 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

null same 26.25 inch f 4.7

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kfrederick
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 658
Re: Roughness and its complement new [Re: kfrederick]
      #3388706 - 10/14/09 08:30 AM

you can see the roughness in center on all three pic .my tester cost 5 dollars and the camera was hand held and you can see the defects ,if you know what to look for /Donot need any thing more than a ronchi and knife edge to get a big mirror close . Then have a pro take a look

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