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Jack Tripper
sage
Reged: 05/10/09
Posts: 339
Loc: Canada
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Just curious about tomorrow. Would an 80% full moon that is about the rise at 9:30PM affect sky darkness if I'm observing at 9:00PM? In my light pollution, I really wouldn't be able to tell, but I am wondering if it is worth driving to a dark site.
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100
Denkmeier S2 Power Filter Switch Diagonal (.66x Reducer, 2x Barlow)
Ethos 17mm, Baader Scopos 30mm
Lunt 60mm Hydrogen-Alpha Solar Scope, Lunt Zoom
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
   
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 16198
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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When the moon is within at least five days of being full I have noticed a brightening of the sky well before the moon approached the horizon with a NELM of six or fainter.
-------------------- Ted
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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I have also noticed an effect. I had the moon just below horizon at a NELM 6 site, and m101 was a faint halo. Winter milky way was also less than it should have been.
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Jack Tripper
sage
Reged: 05/10/09
Posts: 339
Loc: Canada
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Thanks for saving me the gasoline boys...I can always get some helpful advice on this forum.
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100
Denkmeier S2 Power Filter Switch Diagonal (.66x Reducer, 2x Barlow)
Ethos 17mm, Baader Scopos 30mm
Lunt 60mm Hydrogen-Alpha Solar Scope, Lunt Zoom
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gustave
super member
Reged: 05/24/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Annandale, NJ
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Excellent question and answers. I plan on taking advantage of the approximate 1.5 hours between sunset and moonrise tonight....even though the sky will be compromised by the "hidden moon" and deep dusk time, I just have to take advantage of clear sky.
-------------------- CPC 11
Earthwin Power Switcher
TV 101 Genesis
SV70ED
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Hrundi
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 1230
Loc: Estonia
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I should add that a full moon below the horizon doesn't greatly compromise viewing. It's still far better than a light polluted city. And also it's probably worth noting how far below the horizon it is, as that probably plays a role.
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
   
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 16198
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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The well illuminated moon just below the horizon knocks out at least a magnitude of faint stars at my location. It also wakes up the wildlife in the woods. In the city I never noticed the moon's influence until it was at least ten degrees above the horizon.
-------------------- Ted
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Jack Tripper
sage
Reged: 05/10/09
Posts: 339
Loc: Canada
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Thanks everyone! Now I am thinking backyard stargazing tonight!
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100
Denkmeier S2 Power Filter Switch Diagonal (.66x Reducer, 2x Barlow)
Ethos 17mm, Baader Scopos 30mm
Lunt 60mm Hydrogen-Alpha Solar Scope, Lunt Zoom
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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It makes sense that a bright Moon just below the horizon will somewhat brighten the sky. Think of the Moon as being a fainter Sun. Just as the Sun creates twilight, so will the Moon. Just how much of an effect the Moon has will depend on, in generally decreasing order of importance: - The Moon's phase. - It's depresion angle. - Local light pollution. - Natural airglow.
By themselves, the brightness difference between solar and lunar twilight, for a given depression angle, will be equal to the brightness differences of the sources. The Sun is -26.7 mag., and let's say a fat gibbous Moon is -10.7. That's a difference of 16 magnitudes.
When well above the horizon, and in the absence of any significant light pollution, that Moon will make the sky about as bright as 19 mag/arcsec^2.
If we take the dark sky brightness at a fairly good location as 21.5 mag/arcsec^2, we see that a bright Moon makes for a sky some 2.5 mag. brighter. Let's say that any residual moonlight that does not brighten the sky by more than 0.2 magnitudes (about 20%) is not overly significant. So our otherwise pristine 21.5 mag/arcsec^2 sky must be no brighter than 21.3. Note that this vale of 21.3 is the summation of both airglow *and* moonlight. To make the sky 20% brighter means that the moonglow by itself is 20% as bright as that of airglow which is a surface brightness 0.8 magnitudes fainter, i.e., 21.5 + 0.8 = 22.3.
We can now see that the contribution from moonglow must darken from 19 to 22.3 mag/arcsec^2, or 3.3 magnitudes. One needs only monitor the sky during sunset to see at what point it becomes 3.3 magnitudes darker, and then note the solar depression angle. This is how far the Moon would have to be below the horizon to get a similar darkening of lunar twilight.
Of course, this is but one example and is perhaps simplified to a certain extent. And naturally, for other lunar brightnesses and dark sky conditions, the problem would have to be reworked. The one datum to find elsewhere is a table of moonglow contribution to sky brightness for different phases.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Jack Tripper
sage
Reged: 05/10/09
Posts: 339
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
By themselves, the brightness difference between solar and lunar twilight, for a given depression angle, will be equal to the brightness differences of the sources. The Sun is -26.7 mag., and let's say a fat gibbous Moon is -10.7. That's a difference of 16 magnitudes.
When well above the horizon, and in the absence of any significant light pollution, that Moon will make the sky about as bright as 19 mag/arcsec^2.
If we take the dark sky brightness at a fairly good location as 21.5 mag/arcsec^2, we see that a bright Moon makes for a sky some 2.5 mag. brighter. Let's say that any residual moonlight that does not brighten the sky by more than 0.2 magnitudes (about 20%) is not overly significant. So our otherwise pristine 21.5 mag/arcsec^2 sky must be no brighter than 21.3. Note that this vale of 21.3 is the summation of both airglow *and* moonlight. To make the sky 20% brighter means that the moonglow by itself is 20% as bright as that of airglow which is a surface brightness 0.8 magnitudes fainter, i.e., 21.5 + 0.8 = 22.3.
We can now see that the contribution from moonglow must darken from 19 to 22.3 mag/arcsec^2, or 3.3 magnitudes. One needs only monitor the sky during sunset to see at what point it becomes 3.3 magnitudes darker, and then note the solar depression angle.
Until that post, I used to think I was good at math!
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100
Denkmeier S2 Power Filter Switch Diagonal (.66x Reducer, 2x Barlow)
Ethos 17mm, Baader Scopos 30mm
Lunt 60mm Hydrogen-Alpha Solar Scope, Lunt Zoom
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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When the Moon is within about 18 degrees of the anti-solar point, the problem is moot. That's because the Moon will be above the horizon within the period of astronomical twilight.
The aforementioned 18 degrees applies more for tropical latitudes, where Sun and Moon rise and set nearly perpendicularly. At higher latitudes, where bodies rise/set at less steep angles, the limit increases. For example, at 45 deg. latitude the Moon must be no closer to the antisolar point than roughly 25 degrees if it's to be still below the horizon outside of astronomical twilight.
As the Moon moves 12.2 degrees per day, 18 to 25 degrees away from full phase equates to roughly 1.5 to 2 days before or after full Moon.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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gustave
super member
Reged: 05/24/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Annandale, NJ
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Glenn, A very scientific explanation and much appreciated. What I also found very interesting is the quote, "Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas". Who authored that...is it you?
-------------------- CPC 11
Earthwin Power Switcher
TV 101 Genesis
SV70ED
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Going on memory here, but that little chestnut in my sig is attributed to Admiral Hyman Rickover, USN.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Feidb
super member
Reged: 10/09/09
Posts: 121
Loc: Nevada
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My experience is that if there is a lot of junk in the air, the moon doesn't have to be up yet to cause grief. There is already enough grief with the thick air alone, but just because you can't see the moon yet doesn't mean it isn't lighting up the sky. In my experience, it pretty well washes out most galaxies, and for sure anything borderline faint even if it doesn't rise for another half hour to 45 minutes. On a super clear night, I've found it is less of a problem. Then again, we have very few super clear nights, even here in Las Vegas.
-------------------- Present gear:
16" Meade LightBridge
Meade 50mm straight through-finder
Lumicon green laser pointer
Orion Q-70 26mm, 32mm, and 38mm
Parks 2X 2" Barlow
1 1/4" X 2" Hyperion 17mm
1 1/4" X 2" Hyperion 8mm
1 1/4" 18mm Russell Optics Bertele
1 1/4" 12.5mm and 6mm Coulter Optical Orthoscopics
1 1/4" X 2" 32mm Edmund Scientific war surplus Erfle
Tirion star atlas (white stars, black background) hand-laminated
Megastar
And a partridge in a pear tree
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fatrowbridge
super member
   
Reged: 06/11/06
Posts: 178
Loc: UpState South Carolina
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Quote:
Going on memory here, but that little chestnut in my sig is attributed to Admiral Hyman Rickover, USN.
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." Hyman Rickover
-------------------- Alex
12" GSO DOB
Paracorr
20mmNT5; GSO 2" 2X ED Barlow
15mm Panoptic; Tele Vue 1 1/4" 2x Barlow
10, 9, and 7.5 mm Plossls
Tectron Collimation Tools
Hotech Crosshair Laser
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94bamf
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 705
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
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In a perfect world (perfect weather) I might agree with the premise of this thread, but considering how few clear nights there seem to be around here, any night I could get out to a darksite with no moon(even if it is just below the horizon), I would jump at the chance..
I don't fault anybody for not wanting to make a long drive for less than ideal conditions, but if I waited for ideal conditions, I would never get to go period..
I guess the only point I would add related to the OP's orginal question, is just about seeing conditions in general. I have been out many times with a first quarter moon in the sky(certainly worse than a moon below the horizon) and if seeing conditions are good, seen some great detail in deep space objects. At the same time, I have been out many nights with a new moon, and with poor seeing conditions, DSO look horrible. I guess my point is there are so many varibles to what you can see depending numerious conditions, that there might not be any clear answers on whether it is "worth it" for the drive.
Ken
-------------------- Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80
Edited by 94bamf (10/11/09 12:18 PM)
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Jack Tripper
sage
Reged: 05/10/09
Posts: 339
Loc: Canada
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Hi 94bamf! Thanks, you've made some good points. There really are other variables at work here. However, yet another variable is the amount of $$$ I can spend on gas every month. Ideally, I would go every clear night, but as is, I can only afford to drive up a certain amount of times. So, of the clear nights I can choose from, I would like to pick nights that are moonless. (Or unaffected by a full moon just below the horizon.)
But it is interesting to note that for you, a full moon below the horizon is less intrusive than a quarter moon in the visible sky. I'm going to keep that in mind when I am picking nights. Thanks for your input!
-------------------- Celestron CPC 1100
Denkmeier S2 Power Filter Switch Diagonal (.66x Reducer, 2x Barlow)
Ethos 17mm, Baader Scopos 30mm
Lunt 60mm Hydrogen-Alpha Solar Scope, Lunt Zoom
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Feidb
super member
Reged: 10/09/09
Posts: 121
Loc: Nevada
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94bamf and Jack Tripper,
First, 94, well said. I live in Las Vegas which is supposed to have pretty decent skies, but in the past few years, observing nights with any sky at all are few and far between. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice. And Jack, I fully understand your predicament. Gas is certainly an issue here too. I have to drive about 40+ miles and my truck only gets 14MPG on a good day.
Yet... I have to, as I say, roll the dice. If it looks promising, and the moon doesn't rise until say 10 or later, I'll chance it. It usually doesn't pan out for galaxies, but I've had some real good luck with open clusters on nights like those. Then again, there have been a few times where I was packing up as the moon rose and had found over a dozen Herschels.
My thing is with so few times that I'm able to get out, I'll take the chance unless it is going to be really windy. The moon rising or setting during the session is only a minor annoyance. I've gambled and said no and was right. Yet I've also lost the bet and regretted it.
Last year I only went out four times, but they were great nights. This year I hope to break that bad streak, and so far I already have.
-------------------- Present gear:
16" Meade LightBridge
Meade 50mm straight through-finder
Lumicon green laser pointer
Orion Q-70 26mm, 32mm, and 38mm
Parks 2X 2" Barlow
1 1/4" X 2" Hyperion 17mm
1 1/4" X 2" Hyperion 8mm
1 1/4" 18mm Russell Optics Bertele
1 1/4" 12.5mm and 6mm Coulter Optical Orthoscopics
1 1/4" X 2" 32mm Edmund Scientific war surplus Erfle
Tirion star atlas (white stars, black background) hand-laminated
Megastar
And a partridge in a pear tree
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I find that a Quarter Moon is no great impediment to seeing pretty faint stuff. Objects such as the North America and Veil nebulae are easy in 50mm binos at such times. One time I got to see the Horsehead, unfiltered, in a 16" when a *really* fat crescent Moon, about about 1.5 days after last quarter, was well above the horizon.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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