knuklhdastnmr
Fumble feet
Reged: 02/24/05
Posts: 4598
Loc: Beerpuddle, Colorado
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I'm sure many of you have noticed that the name of this forum changed yesterday. It was changed at the suggestion of a member, made in the Feedback forum.
We hope you like it. I think it's a more accurate description.
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Knucklhead Astronomer
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john D
All you have to do is ask!!
Reged: 08/05/07
Posts: 5449
Loc: Midlothian, VA
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cool
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 -Midlothian VA
--Land Of The Free Because Of The Brave--
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s58y
Postmaster
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 5503
Loc: Eastern NY
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I assume the DSLR forum is now mainly for "advanced" DSLR imagers, then.
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knuklhdastnmr
Fumble feet
Reged: 02/24/05
Posts: 4598
Loc: Beerpuddle, Colorado
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I'll let Charlie give a definitive answer.
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Knucklhead Astronomer
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watcher
sage
Reged: 11/21/07
Posts: 406
Loc: NJ
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Intermediate and beginner imaging would be more accurate. I think taking the focus off beginners will only make it more difficult for those of us that are really new at this to get useful info by just reading threads. Of course asking questions will get you somewhere, but imaging is a pretty technical subject, and real newbies (like me) have a hard time even figuring out what to ask.
just my 2 cents
Joe
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(quote)"That does it! Next Big Bang, someone has got to rethink this gettin' old business!" Joe Daugert
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Paul Rix
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3346
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Of course, this is going to cause some issues with the monthly site wide competition (once again). 'Intermediate' imagers will start submitting their entries here rather than over in the CCD or DSLR forums. This isn't such a good idea IMHO.
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Chris_H
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 3308
Loc: Norway
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We still have beginner and intermediate challenges so nothings changed other then the name of the forum 
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Chris
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yock1960
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/22/08
Posts: 979
Loc: SW Ohio, USA
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Quote:
Of course, this is going to cause some issues with the monthly site wide competition (once again). 'Intermediate' imagers will start submitting their entries here rather than over in the CCD or DSLR forums. This isn't such a good idea IMHO.
This has been an intermittent problem for a while. Beginners are pretty obvious as are the experts. It's the wide range of intermediate that is the problem. It would be nice, as far as competition goes, to somehow tie participation in the forum to entering the contests. I have seen people enter who rarely if ever post to the forum. If you're not an active part of the forum community, you shouldn't be allowed to enter the forum contest; IMHO!
This is probably an unsolvable issue.
Steve
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Galaxyhunter
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 1251
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It going to be pretty much impossible to come up with a set of rules that will satisfy everybody.
FWIW, Back in January when we had the last major discussion about who was entering the contest, I suggested (in a PM)that CN creates an "Intermediate Imaging" forum. That would solve a lot of squabbling. 
But it looks like that is not going to happen, so we are going to live with what we have.
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Carl
My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory
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Paul Rix
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3346
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I just don't want to see real beginners decide not to participate in the monthly site wide competition because they have no hope against 'intermediate' imagers who really should be playing with the big boys rather than looking for an easy way to make it into the final round. We used to see quite a few 'beginner images' that were not taken by real beginners (which is not IMHO in the spirit of the competition).
It seems that the name change was done on the suggestion of one member down in the feedback forum and it was adopted without any discussion (at least outside of the mods and admins which we are not privy to).
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Psyire
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 979
Loc: 55* North
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Quote:
I just don't want to see real beginners decide not to participate in the monthly site wide competition because they have no hope against 'intermediate' imagers who really should be playing with the big boys rather than looking for an easy way to make it into the final round. We used to see quite a few 'beginner images' that were not taken by real beginners (which is not IMHO in the spirit of the competition).
I don't disagree.. but isn't that the reason there's a rule that you can only win 3 times in a beginner catagory?
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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It was no surprise to me that this name change opened up some old wounds. These arguments are not new by any means, and the merged beginner and intermediate forum has been a imperfect compromise right from the start.
Yes - there are those who will opt out for an easy win instead of challenging themselves to excel. You can't really stop this short of making up a bunch of somewhat arbitrary rules that attempt to "weed out" those that are "too good". That was the case before the whole issue of intermediate imagers came up in the first place. More rules really shouldn't be necessary. What is there now does its job. IMO the whole thought process here needs to take a different turn.
I have always asked that when folks vote in these contests that they do so with a complete understanding of the situation. You guys all have the power to put forward the finalist that you feel actually deserves to represent the forum - that is what the voting is all about.
You guys make the choice. It's not the entrant's call. It's not the moderators or admin's call. It's up to you.
You certainly don't feel any compulsion to put up a finalist that isn't quite good enough to represent you yet. Instead you challenge them to get better and help them hone their skills - you guys are great at this. So why should you feel compelled to vote for a entrant that either hasn't been a part of this group, or has been but now needs to move on? You guys read this forum every day. You know who the players are, and how they are progressing in their craft. You also know full well who really doesn't belong, and who needs to move along in order to grow.
That's why you get to make the call.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Charlie Hein
Postmaster
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 7965
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
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Here's another observation... if you take a look at the Solar System Imaging forum, you will see some really world class imagers in that contest pretty much every single month. You will also see lots of entries that don't stand a ghost of a chance against them. Many of those guys post every single month regardless of their chances - it's part of the stretch to be better.
I don't believe that the beginners will "chicken out". If they are, then as a group we should be encouraging them more, helping them to get better.
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"He's dead, Jim - I'll get his wallet, you get his tricorder." - Leonard "Bones" McCoy
Weston CSC:
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Paul Rix
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3346
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I guess the problem Charlie is that now the vast majority of us are perfectly entitled to submit their images in this category because 'Intermediate' imagers now belong in this forum (hence the name change). Pretty much everyone can legitimately argue that they are intermediate. I certainly fall into that category but it is hardly fair to compete against someone who has only been in the hobby for a short time.
Frankly, the name change just re-opens the old can of worms that seemed to be pretty much dealt with months ago. If you are intermediate you should be pushing yourself forward over in the main CCD Imaging forum rather than sticking in the forum that was designed to encourage beginners.
Regarding the example set by the Solar System Imaging forum, using that logic we may as well just ditch the beginners(and intermediate I guess) imagers submission and have everyone post into the main CCD or DSLR categories.
It's just my opinion for what it's worth, but intermediate imagers should be over in the main CCD or DSLR forums. That is where they can learn from the more advanced guys.
Frankly this all has me scratching my head a little. I'm a big proponent of the 'if it isn't broken, don't fix it' philosophy.
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1847
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I am an intermediate and I was in favour of the name change because I felt that the CCD imaging forum is too advanced for me to post on. It seems that unless you have an APOD or Hubble like picture, people often ignore your images in the CCD imaging forum.
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Paul Rix
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3346
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yg, doing this can only make that situation worse.
I am also what I would consider as 'Intermediate'. For the most part the images I post over there are well received and I often get good advice on how to improve them further. I certainly don't produce APOD standard deep space images with my DSI II Pro and older generation LX200.
I am going to continue posting my images over in the CCD forum because that is where I will learn the most. I also don't want that forum to be the sole domain of people who have expensive SBIG, Fingerlakes, Takahashi gear. I am sure they wouldn't want that either.
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Galaxyhunter
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 1251
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Quote:
I guess the problem Charlie is that now the vast majority of us are perfectly entitled to submit their images in this category because 'Intermediate' imagers now belong in this forum (hence the name change). Pretty much everyone can legitimately argue that they are intermediate. I certainly fall into that category but it is hardly fair to compete against someone who has only been in the hobby for a short time.
There is no actual competition in the Forum itself. The only competition that I'm aware of is in the monthly DSO/Bright submissions. & now that there are a category for Beginners / Intermediate / Advance divisions, Everybody has there own level to enter in.
Quote:
It's just my opinion for what it's worth, but intermediate imagers should be over in the main CCD or DSLR forums. That is where they can learn from the more advanced guys.
With that logic, Who would be here to help/teach the Beginners?
As a side note: I was the main person the Jared singled out in January's discussion. He said that I had 15 years of experience. That was a TOTALLY FALSE statement. I may have started imaging 15 years ago, but I had many years that I never even touched my scope let a lone do any imaging. Since January, I have not posted any images anywhere (except for the Intermediate contests). I feel that I can help out beginners so thats why I stick around here. I only image in monochrome so I have nothing to offer in the "CCD Imaging" forum where 90+% of all images are in color. That being said, I have learned a ton from all the good people in this forum & CCD forum.
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Carl
My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory
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yg1968
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 1847
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Paul,
You are a high intermediate. You are actually close to being advanced in my opinion. I am a low intermediate.
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Paul Rix
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3346
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Carl, there is the monthly site wide imaging/sketching competition. Some people were using the Beginner's Imaging forum as an easy way to a spot in the monthly final. This was to some extent fixed by setting the 3 wins and you have to move up rule.
Who would be there to teach real beginners? Why, you, me and anyone else who cares to help people get started. That doesn't mean this is the place to post your own images if you are at a more advanced level. The purpose of this forum was to help new people reach a basic level of proficiency, at which point they move on up to the CCD or DSLR forums (where they can learn more advanced techniques). I have seen people posting images in here with 5 plus minute subs, advanced equipment, advanced processing techniques etc etc. That isn't what this particular forum was set up for.
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Paul Rix
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3346
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Yg, thanks for the compliment. I have a lot to learn though. I still haven't perfected using flat frames or processing using layer masks, and I am sure there are a host of other advanced techniques I could learn that would make quite an difference. I think I have some way to go before I could consider myself 'advanced'.
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