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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Film Astrophotography

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tommyhawk13
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Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 693
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Questions about scanner settings new
      #3287435 - 08/22/09 10:53 AM

My scanner is an Epson Perfection 2450 PHOTO flatbed scanner.
It has an illuminated lid, and came with plastic film holders for 35mm and medium format negatives (and transparancies), and a 4x5 film holder.

The bundled software (smart panel) has settings for image controls.

Most of my scans look different than the slides. The color shifts to a purple. I'm wondering if my settings are off.
When I set it to the default settings, everything seems too dark.
Bumping up the exposure setting to 12 really brings out faint nebulae, but it seems awfully grainy and harsh.

Settings available:
Source: flatbed, color neg, monochrome neg, pos. film
Resolution: 50 to 12800 dpi (usually set at 4800 dpi)

Image type color photo 48 bit, 24 bit
Scanning mode best, draft
Descreening on, off (what's this?)
Color smoothing off, on
Unsharp mask, on, or off

I usually don't mess with the source and target settings.

Image Controls
Exposure (set at 0, it's very dark, bumped up to 12 brings out lots of faint stuff)
Gamma
Highlight
Shadow

Tone correction (looks a lot like curves settings in PS)

Color adjustment (saturation only)

I'm sure if I quit my job and stopped doing chores around the house, I could figure about 10% of this in a year or so by exerimenting, but I thought it would be a better idea to ask here. I'm sure my wife and kids would agree.

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Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras


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Nightfly
sage


Reged: 06/20/07
Posts: 441
Loc: Sullivan, Maine
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: tommyhawk13]
      #3287802 - 08/22/09 03:14 PM

I would start with 1200 DPI, 24 Bit .jpg scans set to best, not draft to get going and perfect your method. Turn off color smoothing, descreening, etc. You may want to leave on Unsharp Mask as it seems to bring out more detail, others may disagree, I have had success with this on and I use an Epson 4490. Try it and see, you'll know.

If it allows you to view the image on a pre-scan and adjust the histogram, make sure your not clipping your shadow detail. It the left part of the histogram. Make sure it reaches bottom before it disappears off the left of the scale.

Experiment with it and post your results so we may give more advice. Scanning can be tricky, but don't let that steer you away.

Once scanned, pull up in PS and play with the levels and shadow curves to make a pleasing background, but not totally black. Use your eyes and make sure your monitor is somewhat calibrated at least.

Just throwing it around. Igor, you got more???

Jim

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Nightfly Astrophotography

Sullivan, Maine, USA
Pentax 67 with 55, 75, 105, 165, 200, and 300mm lenses
Pentax Spotmatic II with 35, 50, and 300mm lenses
Kodak E200 acetate based chemical sensor
Flickr - Nightfly Photography


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tommyhawk13
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 693
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: Nightfly]
      #3287925 - 08/22/09 04:33 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

Here's an example that was scanned at 4800 dpi, exposure setting at around +12, and stretched in photoshop.
It was a 30 min exposure at f/2.8, and the 50mm 1.7 Yashica ML lens just couldn't hold up to being that wide open. I'd like to play around with this some more and repost later.

--------------------



Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras


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Nightfly
sage


Reged: 06/20/07
Posts: 441
Loc: Sullivan, Maine
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: tommyhawk13]
      #3287942 - 08/22/09 04:45 PM

Wow! If you only had a good lens. Stopped down? Are you sure? I'd expect to see this quality wide open. You captured some very good detail. 4800 DPI is useless BTW unless you have a detailed transparency to work with. You have some good structure of the Cygnus MW in there.

Keep at it!

--------------------
Nightfly Astrophotography

Sullivan, Maine, USA
Pentax 67 with 55, 75, 105, 165, 200, and 300mm lenses
Pentax Spotmatic II with 35, 50, and 300mm lenses
Kodak E200 acetate based chemical sensor
Flickr - Nightfly Photography


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tommyhawk13
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 693
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: Nightfly]
      #3288095 - 08/22/09 06:51 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

I was pretty sure that everything I shot that night was set at f/2.8, instead of 1.7, but I could be wrong.
I am fairly certain that this exposure was 30 minutes, and I would expect to see a lot of sky fog and over exposure at f/1.7 in the nebulae, considering it was pushed 1 stop.

In any case, my dark sites skies are darker than I though at the zenith.

I scanned a small portion of the slide at multiple exposure settings.
The composite below is from the same slide, and the same area, scanned at 1200 dpi.
The upper half is scanned at the default "0" setting,
The lower half is scanned at the "14" exposure setting.
I copied both scans, stretched the levels, and posted the corresponding results on the right.
Note the bands on the top of the image are where the film was bent.

--------------------



Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras


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Nightfly
sage


Reged: 06/20/07
Posts: 441
Loc: Sullivan, Maine
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: tommyhawk13]
      #3288106 - 08/22/09 06:57 PM

The lens may be not so bad. Now that I am seeing the close ups, its trailed stars. Work on the guiding or possible flexture issues. Other than that, the bottom left image seems to be the best level-wise. Make sure you crop out the outside of the frame before doing too much processing as this becomes part of the overall image data you are trying to change and adds artificially more shadow information.

--------------------
Nightfly Astrophotography

Sullivan, Maine, USA
Pentax 67 with 55, 75, 105, 165, 200, and 300mm lenses
Pentax Spotmatic II with 35, 50, and 300mm lenses
Kodak E200 acetate based chemical sensor
Flickr - Nightfly Photography


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BRCoz
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Reged: 10/21/05
Posts: 431
Loc: Moreno Valley, CA
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: Nightfly]
      #3379257 - 10/08/09 09:52 PM

Can your scanner do more then one pass during the scan? I remember years ago a friend doing that with his scanner. I don't remember if it was for each color channel. But doing that brought out more detail then one pass. This was a film/slide scanner.

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60mm AP guide scope
WO ZS80FD 10th Anniversary
FS102, AR5, APM/TMB 130
102 Apex, 8" Meade LX10, C11
PST
GM8, G11 & ASGT
Denk Standard, 25x100 binos
30D, 10D, AE-1, OM1


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Nebhunter
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/04/03
Posts: 1259
Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: Questions about scanner settings new [Re: tommyhawk13]
      #3381460 - 10/10/09 01:37 AM

Tommy - I've banged my head against the scanner wall for months to finally come to grips with it. It will take awhile for you to understand what those options mean - and do during a scan.

Nightfly has allot of experience with the Epsons, and I would suggest using his settings as a guideline. You need to get the basics working first and then build on that. Default settings are fine for this.

My advice - select ONE option or setting at a time. DO NOT ADJUST 2 or 3 things and then scan. One at a time. Record you test scans - all the parameters. Make notes to compare each scan, with the ONE thing adjusted. Once you find what it's doing - find a balanced setting and then move onto the next.

The purple shift is usually a sign of the GAMMA being to high and / or exposure being too aggressive. The scanner is trying to dig out detail from the shadows, and sometimes gives a purple or magenta colour.

Gamma - for WinDOH - try 1.8, 2.0, and 2.2. Somewhere around 2.0 should work fine. Put all other settings to default, select Gamma and scan. Makes notes, scan at the next higher Gamma. Do low resolution scans for test purposes. No use tying up Ram and disk space. Around 600 dpi should do fine to get an idea of what's going on.


Exposure 12 brings out the grain. Once you find which Gamma setting works best - leave it set and do not adjust. Now work on the exposure and start at a lower setting eg: 3. Do a low rez scan. Change it to 4, and do another scan. Compare the frames side by side if you can, make notes.

Set scanner to 48 bit scans.
Make sure you set the other parameters to match your monitor icc - if you can. Did you get an IT8 card which has a bar code on it, and above that a bunch of vertical coloured lines? If so, you use that card to calibrate the scanner. That is critical. Read the manual on how to calibrate.

Leave Highlight and Shadow at 0 for now. We can work on those later. Do NOT use any Saturation or Curves or Tones settings in the scanner. Leave that for PhotoShop.

If the software lists a bunch of suggestions for scanning - like
Standard
Evening
Snow etc - pick STANDARD. If you use the other settings, you will get clipping of your histogram. If you have a histogram on the scanner software, click on it and check to ensure both left and right sides are all the way from 0 to 255. Corrections to be done in PhotoShop to tighten them up.

Source and Target settings may need to be set for the scanner to know what's going on. Source - it may have 2 settings - and you select either -
Reflective (scanning photos)
Transparency - this will have 2 settings - Negative - Positive.

If you don't set this properly - the scanner may assume Reflective, and use those values - when in fact you have a negative. End result - crazy colours.

When set up properly, and you select Negative - the scanner software MAY allow you to select the film type, ie: Kodak, Fuji etc. Also the film type - eg: Superia, and the ISO - eg: 400 for that film type. Now you have refined some settings - better scans.

Target - I usually just have the file as Save. I can scan a few in a row, then open PhotoShop and look at them one at a time or in pairs for comparison.

Hope this helps. Let us know how it's going. I hope I haven't made your head spin with all this. Mine did for months. It almost came to a point where I was going to drop it off the roof. Now it's working very well, but it was a close call.

Igor

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The StarGeezer

Those who trade liberty for security have neither. ~John Adams

TEC 140 (Katyusha) & F/F - Equinox 80 - Losmandy G11/Gemini - ST-4 guider. PENTAX 67ii - 400(EDif) & siblings. I shoot FILM.


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tommyhawk13
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 693
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
Re: Questions about scanner settings [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3389587 - 10/14/09 04:59 PM

Thanks Igor.
I'd love to spend some more time scanning, but all 3 of my kids are having major problems in school.

--------------------



Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras


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