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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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Samir Kharusi
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Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 985
Loc: Oman
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Fordracer1]
      #3365156 - 09/30/09 12:04 AM

Quote:

Of course the usual issues of a better mount, guiding, etc will crop back up but still it makes this setup pretty versatile. 2800mm F10, 1764mm F6.3 and 560mm F2. Pretty hard to beat from a single scope!



Pssst! I can't believe that so far nobody seems to have tried the obvious. Stick a 1.4x or a 2x tele-extender on your Hyperstar and see what it does. I have been planning to do it "next time" I am imaging ever since I got the Hyperstar but never did get around to it. Hopefully this winter, weather still too hot right now. Because the moment-arm gets increased, it is much safer to try this with one of the smaller/lighter 1000D, 500D series of cameras, rather than risk cracking that corrector plate with the heavier 40D/50D or the new 7D. I bought a 500D to get me a margin of safety, but it also comes with the bonus of tiny pixels. On a C14 Hyperstar + 500D one gets 1.4arc-sec per pixel, thus most likely already at the limit of my seeing. With a 1.4x you get to 1.0arc-sec per pixel and that is definitely too fine with the seeing most people have. With the 2x you are way over-sampling... With a C14 I do not see much advantage of upgrading to the Edge HD; frankly ridiculous over-sampling at f7 or f11 with any DSLR if seeing is already the Long-Exposure Hi-Res limiter at f2.8 (Hyperstar + 1.4x). At f25 for planetary use there is not much wrong on-axis with the existing C14. The ever tinier pixel sizes in new cameras are changing the rules of the game, e.g. instead of using a 1.4x or 2x for daytime photography, just buy a new 1000D or 500D. Costs little more than a Canon 1.4xII plus a 2xII and delivers the same magnification (after cropping) at a faster f-ratio. I suspect that even the superteles have a hard time outresolving the 4.7micron pixel pitch in a 500D off-axis, so a tele-extender becomes superfluous most of the time, certainly a 2x. The previous generation of 10 to 12 megapixel crop DSLRs already demonstrated that a 2x was not much use for daytime photography (birding) and the latest 15 to 18 megapixel crop DSLRs may well kill the 1.4x for all daytime use. But there may still be a role in astro and Hyperstar use.

--------------------
Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/


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JPGriffin
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Reged: 05/13/09
Posts: 36
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3365237 - 09/30/09 01:16 AM

Samir,
I have a 2x tele extender for my Canons and I have had that thought as well. I am definitely going to try it once the atmospheric conditions improve over the next few months.


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Jimmy2K63
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Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: Kentucky
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: JPGriffin]
      #3365674 - 09/30/09 09:46 AM

I am confused. A week ago we got into a huge discussion on focal ratio on the Beginner's forum and I got shot down on this point. I contend that focal ratio counts and that imaging is all about focal ratio, especially exposure speed. Then the point is made that focal ratio doesn't count, aperture counts, and I get shot down in flames. Now I see this post about how quickly you can collect images at f/2 using this Hyperstar, which by the way, is really nice. It's encouraging to see these adaptations to improve existing gear and to see them work so well. It really does this hobby justice.

So tell me, does focal ratio matter and how does this fit in with the whole f/ratio myth? I need clarification please.

--------------------
http://astronomyguy63.blogspot.com/

LXD75 SN6-UHTC
Cave Astrola 10" f/5
Garrett 15x70/FarSight
Canon XS (1000D)


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Fordracer1
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 830
Loc: Springfield, MO
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #3366243 - 09/30/09 02:25 PM

Jimmy2K3,

I hate to open this can of worms but I think BOTH focal ratio and aperature count, just in different ways and the only valid way to make comparisons between them is if you make comparisons based on some fixed parameters. For instance there is no doubt that a 20" F5 scope will produce better images (in general) than my 50mm F1.8 Canon camera lens DEPENDING ON THE OBJECT. For instance a tiny galaxy that won't show up at all in a shot with the lens will look great with the 20". A wide Milky Way shot isn't possible with the 20" but is easy with the lens. The 20" will obviously have greater resolution than the lens. If you can find an object that can at least sort of be imaged by both the 20" and the lens - in other words something that will show up and have some discernable detail in both - there will be vast differences in the size of the object in each and the level of detail in each and possibly the brightness of the object in each. The exposure times may be different or may be somewhat similar due to the differences in the total number of photons collected (aperature) vs the concentration of those photons (F ratio). I don't know it but I am sure there is some math that could describe the differences between total photons and concentration and allow you to compare various combinations of aperature and ratio, but unless you know the math I think it is safest to just say that when comparing similar aperatures faster F-ratio has advantages due to shorter exposure times assuming the faster optics are as good a quality and do not producer more or worse abberations than the slower optics and conversly when comparing two scopes with similar F-ratio the larger aperature will allow better resolution and collect more total photons. If you are comparing ONLY exposure times I am sure that there is a point where a larger F8 scope will allow as short an exposure as a small F2 scope but I won't swear to that. Aperature and F-ratio also combine with other things such as imager pixel size, seeing, mount accuracy and so on. I believe it is Craig Stark that has a great explanation of all of this on his blog. In the end they both matter and the thing to do is get as big a scope with as fast an F-ratio as you can afford! That may sound like a cop out rather than an explanation but I really feel that the only valid way to compare aperature and F-ratio is in specific combinations along with the camera being used and so forth. In Craig's blog that I referenced above he gives some specific examples of why this is so.

--------------------
John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com


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Dan478
super member


Reged: 10/30/08
Posts: 141
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31etc) new [Re: Fordracer1]
      #3366560 - 09/30/09 05:09 PM

John,

It appears that this will work with a Classic LX200 10" with a DSLR Canon D40.

But my secondary only has the 3 Collimation screws, not the 6 screws the Hyperstar requires on the secondary, and would require purchase of their secondary adapter, which looks a little pricey.

I will be reading more about this devise and following the threads regarding Hyperstar.

Thanks for the information John.

--------------------
Dan
Southern California

LX-200 10" Classic
Canon 40D (unmodified)
Astronomik CLS LP Filter
6.3 Focal reducer

Link to my observatory and imaging site:
http://dansastroimages.blogspot.com/


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dawsonian2000
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 07/26/06
Posts: 563
Loc: Riverview, FL, USA
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31etc) new [Re: Fordracer1]
      #3366598 - 09/30/09 05:22 PM

Those images are out of this world; no pun intended. When I read about the hyperstar in Astronomy Technology Today magazine, I could not believe the images this device was capable of producing! Exposure times were drastically reduced and contrast shot through the roof! Yes, the Hyperstar in your capable hands truly rocks!

Congrats!

Mel

--------------------
Clear Skies, Forever!
The Vega Sky Center
10" (254mm) F/5.65 Home Built Fork Mounted Newtonian Reflector
5" (127mm) F/9.4 Home Built Refractor (under construction)
3.5" (90mm) F/11.1 "Vixen-Spec Modified" Konus Refractor
3.1" (80mm) F/6 Scopos ED APO Refractor
4.5" (114mm) F/8 Tasco 11te-5 Newtonian (under restoration)
2.4" (60mm) F/16.7 Tasco 7te-5 Refractor
2.4" (60mm) F/15 Jason Discoverer 313 Refractor

http://www.vega-sky-center.com


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Psyire
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 979
Loc: 55* North
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31etc) new [Re: dawsonian2000]
      #3367511 - 10/01/09 12:22 AM

John, thanks very much for sharing these images and information with us. I'm extremely close to pulling the trigger on a hyperstar setup for my C11. I am however very curious as to what you'll be able to accomplish with say 300sec subs compared to the relatively short 35sec ones.

My only real issue with moving forward is the arcsec/pixel ratio for the C11 Hyperstar with my Canon 450D is around 2 and this is almost too much for my taste. I would much perfer closer to 1 arcsec/pixel range and this talk of using a 1.4x tele-extender peaks my interest further. I think it would be tough to beat a imaging system that combines large aperature, fast F/ratio with a arcsec/pixel ratio near the 'seeing' limit.

--------------------
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com




Edited by Psyire (10/01/09 12:31 AM)


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Samir Kharusi
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 985
Loc: Oman
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #3367645 - 10/01/09 01:50 AM

Quote:

So tell me, does focal ratio matter and how does this fit in with the whole f/ratio myth? I need clarification please.



Both absolute aperture (diameter or sq in) and focal ratio count, of course, but in different ways. To make a decent astro image you need a very long integration time. The integration time and the absolute aperture (sq in of photon-bucket area) determine how many photons you have captured from your target. But these are quite useless if you cannot extract them from the skyfog noise. In general, the skyfog, even at the darkest locations on Earth or in near Earth orbit, is brighter than the dimmest parts of the nebula that you are trying to image.

Now the detector comes in. There is a limit in electron-well depth and most detectors' electron wells will be saturated and overflow if you shoot a single 3-hour exposure with most OTAs (just ignore the thermal noise from the detector itself, controllable by chilling the CCD). So we have to make up the total integration time by taking shorter sub-exposures. But these subs cannot be infinitely short, otherwise we cannot process out the skyfog properly. That skyfog has to fall (on the histogram) on a region where the detector behaves linearly and is unencumbered by Read Noise of the sensor. A fast Focal Ratio enables the subs to be short (30sec at f2, 1min at f2.8, 2min at f4, etc) even if you are at the darkest site on Earth.

So, in brief, the shortest subs you can get away with is determined by your Focal Ratio. The dimmest part of the nebula that you can image at a given Signal to Noise Ratio is determined by Integration Time and how many sq.inches your photon bucket has. The Hyperstar excels on both counts, fast focal ratio (f1.9 to f2) and large bucket area. APOs fail on both counts, slow focal ratio (typically f5 to f7 meaning subs no shorter than 3 to 6minutes each) and a bucket area at one quarter to one sixth that of a C11 or C14.

Longer and ever longer subs with a Hyperstar; will they do much good? The Hyperstars, while they have a very flat (not curved) image field, show severe vignetting (easily corrected by flats). Consequently the skyfog peak on the histogram is very broad. The corners of the frame need much longer subs than the middle. 30sec subs are ample for the darkest sites for the middle of the frames. For the corners, at a very dark site, one needs closer to 60sec frames. Going to 180sec frames may start chopping off the dynamic range (for the middle of the frames) unduly. For narrowband I found 90sec frames at my heavily light polluted home adequate, but I presume one could benefit from, say, 3 minute subs shooting narrowband at a dark site, perhaps even slightly longer if the filter is very narrow. Of course, in general, we do not care that much about stuff at the corners of the frames. All we want is a sky background that looks reasonably noise-free. So in practice there is not much going in favour of shooting subs much longer than, say, 60sec each when imaging in white light.

This is how severe the vignetting is:

My review of a C14 Hyperstar is available here. and how short you can go with subs on any OTA I discuss here.

--------------------
Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/


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Psyire
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 06/24/07
Posts: 979
Loc: 55* North
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3367684 - 10/01/09 02:16 AM

Thanks Samir, that really clears up a lot of questions I had. Obviously I really overshot on my comment on 300sec exposures.. still I'm having trouble grasping that 60-90sec is all you really need. Wow.

--------------------
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com




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Fordracer1
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Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 830
Loc: Springfield, MO
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Psyire]
      #3368087 - 10/01/09 09:44 AM

Psyire,

It was really hard for me to believe at first that 30-90 seconds would produce good images as well but it is true! Heck, I even got my first ever H-Alpha image (6nm filter) with only 90 second subs! Unfortunately it was in an area with quite a bit of field rotation so the final image has some issues related to that but once I get the OTA on the EQ (just de-forked it last night) I should be able to get good H-Alpha subs with 90 to (I am guessing) perhaps 120 seconds and come up with a nice final image.

--------------------
John Moody
Losmandy G-11
Orion 8" Newt w/Moonlite CR1 motofocus
Baader MPCC
NS11 GPS Starbright Carbon Fiber
Orion 120ST
Meade 5000 80/480 Triplet APO
WO .8 Reducer
15X70 & 25X100 SkyMasters
Modded Canon 40D
Stiletto IV Pro
WO Binoviewer
http://panthercreekastro.mysite.com


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Samir Kharusi
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 06/14/05
Posts: 985
Loc: Oman
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Fordracer1]
      #3369811 - 10/04/09 01:03 AM

Example of 90sec subs through a 7nm Ha and an 8nm OIII, shot separately then combined:

Details and larger version (looks brighter) here.

--------------------
Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/


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Bowmoreman
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Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 3991
Loc: Bolton, MA
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3377823 - 10/08/09 05:17 AM Attachment (17 downloads)

I've had my Hyperstar about 8 weeks now, and am loving it. At first, I took subs that were too long!

Now, my latest, is this Pelican - no darks, no flats, no bias... just 17x30 seconds on my QHY8...

Next chance I get, I'm shooting a ton of flats, etc... and then re-processing this...

Note that this is from a night when the moon was out...

Clear enough skies

--------------------
Dave

Imaging: MI-250+ADM/SBS/Optec Libra: C11Hyperstar,TMB80SS
Visual: XT10i RTP
TV: 31T5,22T4,17T4,12T4,13Ethos,8Ethos;2x Powermate,Paracorr, 1.6X Antares, Hyperion8-24Zoom
Cameras: Mallincam Color Hyper Plus, QHY8
Guider: SBIG STV eFinder
Key Add-ons: Gerbings Heated clothes, WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO#90), Speco 9"Monitor



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bardo
member


Reged: 09/13/09
Posts: 52
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3377827 - 10/08/09 05:27 AM

Quote:

Example of 90sec subs through a 7nm Ha and an 8nm OIII, shot separately then combined:

Details and larger version (looks brighter) here.




that is an awesome shot!


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PatHolland
newbie


Reged: 10/11/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Clever, Missouri
Re: Hyperstar rocks!! Some recent fun (M42/M45/M31 [Re: Fordracer1]
      #3411292 - 10/26/09 04:59 AM

John, you've convinced me. My 14" scope and hyperstar are on their way to me now.

--------------------
Meade LX200 10"
ES 80mm APO
Meade DSI 1 & II
Canon XSi


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