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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #3404354 - 10/22/09 02:46 PM

Just for fun, here are some NGCs and possible visual representations of the numbers using a famous memory techique:

7009 (Saturn Nebula): Case-Soap
457 (Owl Cluster): Relic
7000 (North America Nebula): Cases
2392 (Eskimo Nebula): Nome-Pan (or -Bun or -Pin)
3242 (Ghost of Jupiter): Moon-Ruin

To remember that 7009 Saturn Nebula is in Aquarius: Saturn washes with Case-Soap and water from Aquarius.

OK, that's enough. Too much off thread.

Mike

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: -=BB=-]
      #3404419 - 10/22/09 03:16 PM

Quote:


Maybe this could be a topic for a future S&T article? Something not just describing the coordinate system, but how to actually begin to learn it, use it, know it, and incorporate it into amateur observing?




I must admit that I have a bad feeling about it. Somehow, the whole subject seems more appropriate for a book than a magazine. I can't imagine how to discuss it without being didactic and maybe a little boring.

I'll ask Alan MacRobert, though. If anybody could write something like that in a light, accessible style, then he's the guy.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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rookie
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/14/06
Posts: 881
Loc: St. Petersburg, FL
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3405287 - 10/22/09 11:14 PM

I asked a friend of mine who is the Prof Chair of astronomy at the local college and planetarium if he had any lesson plans for teaching RA or Celestial Coordinate knowledge and his response was, "Why, no!" Then I was served his vague dry humor description, "Pisces is 0 and Orion 5 1/2 or thereabouts".

We did both agree that the S&T Pocket Sky Atlas is probably a great study guide for this purpose due to its organization.

--------------------
SV
Scope: Celestron CPC8
Binoculars: Garrett GT80~45, Fujinon 16x70, Regals 10x42, Ultima 9x63, Nikon AE 8x40



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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1683
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: rookie]
      #3405756 - 10/23/09 08:18 AM

Planispheres

There has not been a lot of talk in this thread about planispheres (possibly one or two references). I thought I would say a few words about this simple, yet effective instrument to estimate locations of constellations, bright stars, Messiers, and RA and DEC coordinates.

How I use a planisphere to estimate RA in the night sky

The way I estimate RA in the night sky is to use a planisphere, along with a watch and a field compass.

The field compass marks the fixed meridian or transit line (North-South line passing from the Northern horizon through zenith to the Southern horizon). While the RA hours do change throughout the night, the meridian is permanent from a single observing position. However, if I move to a new observing position on the ground, I need to take a new meridian reading.

The hole in the center of the planishere is Polaris, the North star, from which all RA lines radiate. I rotate the planisphere to align the current month, day, and time.

Next, I hold the planishpere up against the sky with the hole in the center covering the actual North Star in the sky. The lines and tick marks on the planisphere for each of the 24 RA hours enable me to estimate the position of RA hours in the night sky radiating from the North Star. The planishere also has DEC tick marks for estimating DEC°.

As the time changes throughout the night, I rotate the planisphere to align the new time with the month and date, and again hold the planisphere over the actual North Star in the sky to estimate the new RA postions.

Observing at meridian

Now is a good time to bring in the oft-quoted and long out-of-print 1001 Celestial Wonders, 3rd ed. (Barnes, 1931), a well written observing guide for keeping one's telescope fixed at meridian over the course of 12 months. Read the magic as the RA 5th hour transits Barnes's meridian on January 13, 1926, at 9 p.m. (p. 51).
    For who would acquire a knowledge of the heavens in little, let him give up his days and nights to the marvels of Orion. Here may be found every conceivable variation of celestial phenomena: stars, giants and dwarfs; variables, doubles, triples, multiples; binaries visual and spectroscopic; clusters wide and condensed; mysterious rayless rifts and nebulae in boundless variety, with the supreme wonder of all supernatural wonders at its heart--the Great Nebula--before which the learned and the laymen alike have stood silent in awe and reverence since the first lens unfolded to man's gaze its true vastness and intricacy; and which offers abundant field for all the geniuses of science, with their super-refinements of means and methods, for generations to come. To know Orion is to know astronomy!
Which planisphere do I use?

I prefer David Chandler's The Night Sky planisphere over other planispheres because it has lines and tick marks for each of the 24 RA hours and every 10° of DEC. Some planispheres I have seen only have lines for every 3 RA hours. In addition to RA and DEC, most planispheres also have visible Constellations marked, as well as many bright stars and Messiers.

If I am sitting at my desk and want to consult a planisphere, I often use the planisphere views in the SkyTools 3 software program or reach for Sky & Telescope's Star Wheel.

In my easy chair, when I read an astronomy magazine or observing guide, I like to have S&T's Star Wheel at my side because of its large size and colorful sky background printed on heavy cardboard. As I read about an interesting star or DSO, I pick up the planisphere to find out when it will be visible from my location.

However, for outside use in the dark, I prefer David Chandler's planisphere because of its simplicity and plastic material.

--------------------
Bob
38°N


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rmollise
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Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3405833 - 10/23/09 09:27 AM

Quote:


I must admit that I have a bad feeling about it. Somehow, the whole subject seems more appropriate for a book than a magazine. I can't imagine how to discuss it without being didactic and maybe a little boring.

I'll ask Alan MacRobert, though. If anybody could write something like that in a light, accessible style, then he's the guy.




It's not hard to teach the celestial coordinate system, and you don't have to be boring and pendantic either (as if I could _be_ pedantic ). In fact, I do it every semester in about half an hour--tops.

Think them younguns needs some larnin' in this regard? Do a presentation or two on the subject for your club.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!


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auriga
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/02/06
Posts: 795
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3408073 - 10/24/09 12:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Maybe this could be a topic for a future S&T article? Something not just describing the coordinate system, but how to actually begin to learn it, use it, know it, and incorporate it into amateur observing?





Tony,

I think it definitely adds something for an observer to be able to think in terms of RA and Dec in locating objects.

And this thread has turned out to be a wonderful discussion.

But for Sky & Telescope's charts, Steve Coe and Tom Polakis and Don Pensack have told you that using a three letter constellation abbreviation is very helpful. I guess they are what you would call "relatively experienced observers?"

It is impressive to learn that you and other fine observers can derive the equations for turning alt and az into RA and Dec, but for me the issue is what observers actually find helpful in locating objects. It appears that in addition to their cultural and historical importance, constellations are widely used by observers in locating objects. How people actually think is quite important, not just how one imagines that they should think if they were wonderfully logical.

Clear skies,
Bill Meyers


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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: auriga]
      #3408452 - 10/24/09 03:44 PM

Quote:

How people actually think is quite important, not just how one imagines that they should think if they were wonderfully logical.




Well said!

But carrying the discussion of Go To scopes a tad farther. People have given me compelling evidence that RA and Dec are alien to many Go-To users. I may deplore that, but even as influential a force as Sky & Telescope can't change it -- at best, just budge it a little.

However, I betcha that a mighty lot of Go To users also have zero sense of constellations. I wonder whether constellations are genuinely useful for the majority of Go To users. Of course, at three letters, it's worth supplying them even if they're only helpful to a minority.

Regardless, not giving RA and Dec is genuinely unthinkable. Those are *the* rock-bottom identifying data for an object. More important even than the name, which is often ambiguous and open to interpretation.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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auriga
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/02/06
Posts: 795
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Starman1]
      #3409015 - 10/24/09 09:55 PM

(snip)

The point was that constellations are archeological cultural remnants.

(snip of a beautiful poem by Shelley.)

There is nothing left of those cultures save the constellations bequeathed to us. We owe them to preserve the constellations for all time.





Don,
Eloquent. Thank you.
Bill Meyers


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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1683
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: auriga]
      #3409074 - 10/24/09 10:32 PM



--------------------
Bob
38°N


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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: auriga]
      #3409491 - 10/25/09 08:22 AM

Quote:

(snip)

The point was that constellations are archeological cultural remnants.

(snip of a beautiful poem by Shelley.)

There is nothing left of those cultures save the constellations bequeathed to us. We owe them to preserve the constellations for all time.




A *great* deal remains to us of ancient Mesopotamia, the culture that gave us the most constellations. Writing. Cities. Mathematics. The 360-degree circle. Gilgamesh. Astronomy and astrology. Judaism, and through that, Christianity and Islam.

Astrology is one tradition that we might be better off without.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.

Edited by Tony Flanders (10/25/09 08:26 AM)


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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1683
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3409556 - 10/25/09 09:25 AM

Using constellations to measure the sky or to show respect for previous cultures is NOT astrology.

--------------------
Bob
38°N


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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: BobinKy]
      #3409647 - 10/25/09 10:32 AM

Tony,

I think your tongue may have been a bit in your cheek, so to speak, but astrology is one tradition that we definitely WOULD be better off without. It is utter and absolute nonsense, and that is not just my humble opinion! I refuse to give anyone my astrological sign if they ask for it, and I purposely make sure not to even glance at the horoscopes in the papers. Don't feed the monster. The fault is in our selves, not the stars.

Going back on topic ......

Clear and Natural Skies,
Mike

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!


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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #3410361 - 10/25/09 04:22 PM

Quote:


I think your tongue may have been a bit in your cheek, so to speak, but astrology is one tradition that we definitely WOULD be better off without. It is utter and absolute nonsense ...




Of course. However, it's a matter of record that mathematics and science -- and astronomy in particular -- were developed largely because of the desire to do better astrology. And it is also a matter of record that some of the best minds that the world has ever seen devoted much of their effort to astrology.

So people who *really* care about history and tradition for its own sake would be well advised to learn a little about astrology. From the viewpoint of utility, constellations are far superior. But from the viewpoint of antiquity, majesty, and continuity, astrology is equally impressive.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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-=BB=-
only get better


Reged: 07/25/08
Posts: 34
Loc: Connecticut, US
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3410419 - 10/25/09 04:43 PM

Thank you, BobinKY, rookie and starman1 (Don) for the tips. I do have the Pocket Sky Atlas and Don Chandler's planisphere and I shall pay more attention to the information already at my fingertips.

Should anyone wish to pen an article, here on Cloudy Nights, or in S&T or Astronomy, or a chapter in Skywatch, or something in Guy Ottewell's calendar (maybe there already is - I'll have to check), you have at least one interested reader.

Many happy photons to you all.

--------------------
~Bruce

"It is at is because it wants, once and for all, to be as it is." - Arthur Schopenhauer, 1788-1860

I have: a 6" Dob, an 80ED Apo, a homemade 70mm refractor, a pair of 10x50 binos and some other stuff.





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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3410949 - 10/25/09 10:19 PM

Tony,

Quote:

Quote:


I think your tongue may have been a bit in your cheek, so to speak, but astrology is one tradition that we definitely WOULD be better off without. It is utter and absolute nonsense ...




Of course. However, it's a matter of record that mathematics and science -- and astronomy in particular -- were developed largely because of the desire to do better astrology. And it is also a matter of record that some of the best minds that the world has ever seen devoted much of their effort to astrology.




Also, chemistry developed from alchemy, and some great minds, such as Sir Isaac Newton, worked actively in alchemical research. But both alchemy and astrology are based on supernatural interpretations of natural phenomena and should be rejected as nonsense in the modern world. There is no place for either of these now except as historical curiosities. They should be studied in the same way, perhaps, that dead languages are often learned today, as a way to understand premodern worldviews and as antecedents of modern languages.

Quote:

So people who *really* care about history and tradition for its own sake would be well advised to learn a little about astrology. From the viewpoint of utility, constellations are far superior. But from the viewpoint of antiquity, majesty, and continuity, astrology is equally impressive.




Astrology is an intricate web of deductions, some logical but mostly one form or another of magical thinking, based on a set of misguided interpretations of what we see when we look at the sky at night. I am not impressed by astrology at all, but only feel a twinge of disgust at a pathetic and stubbornly-held mistake inflicted upon a suffering but easily-duped humanity. Should we study prenology because it foreshadowed the scientific knowledge that different areas of the brain have different functions?

What other valid, scientific discoveries and mathematical developments could Newton have made if he had ignored alchemy and "prognostication"? A huge waste of time and effort on utter nonsense best ignored.

Clear Skies,
Mike

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!


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blb
sage


Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 219
Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #3411001 - 10/25/09 10:57 PM

Almost all amateurs use constellations while almost all professionals use computers and RA & Dec. Almost all amateurs look at the sky while almost all Professionals look at computers and photo's. Are not our publications for amateurs? We do not often read Professional journals! Why all the hoopla? Can we not make reference to the constellations for the amateurs? I don't know, you tell me.

--------------------
C-11, C-6, XT10i Dob, ETX125PE, TV102, & AT66


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David Knisely
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 8290
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: blb]
      #3411240 - 10/26/09 03:18 AM

Quote:

Almost all amateurs use constellations while almost all professionals use computers and RA & Dec. Almost all amateurs look at the sky while almost all Professionals look at computers and photo's. Are not our publications for amateurs? We do not often read Professional journals! Why all the hoopla? Can we not make reference to the constellations for the amateurs? I don't know, you tell me.




No, many amateurs use R.A. and Dec. If I am commanding my NexStar to slew to some object, I usually input either the catalog number of the object or its coordinates, not the constellation it is in. That having been said, the constellations do provide a sort of "identity" to the various objects within their borders. It is a little like saying a person lives in a particular city, even though their street address or latitude and longitude are not precisely specified. For that reason, I don't feel that there is anything "obsolete" about using constellations is various observing guides or lists. They are a useful way of getting a rough handle on where an object is. Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org


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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List new [Re: blb]
      #3411313 - 10/26/09 05:39 AM

Quote:

Almost all amateurs use constellations while almost all professionals use computers and RA & Dec. Almost all amateurs look at the sky while almost all Professionals look at computers and photo's.




Boy, I sure don't agree with that dichotomy! I know *quite* a lot of amateurs who primarily look at computers and photos. There's a real tension at my astronomy club between the strictly visual observers, who consider any hint of light to be a major problem, and the astro-imagers, who really don't understand at an intuitive level why people complain about their bright computer screens.

As I said in an earlier note in this thread, I fear that in this age of Go To, many novice and intermediate amateurs know and use *neither* constellations *nor* celestial coordinates.

But beyond a certain level, all amateurs are quite familiar with both. Constellations are too ubiquitous to ignore, and celestial coordinates are absolutely essential once you move beyond the well-known warhorse objects.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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Sarkikos
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/18/07
Posts: 1075
Loc: Suburban Maryland
Re: Constellations Obsolete in Astro Guides & List [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #3411413 - 10/26/09 08:31 AM

Tony,

Quote:

Boy, I sure don't agree with that dichotomy! I know *quite* a lot of amateurs who primarily look at computers and photos. There's a real tension at my astronomy club between the strictly visual observers, who consider any hint of light to be a major problem, and the astro-imagers, who really don't understand at an intuitive level why people complain about their bright computer screens.




I certainly agree with that observation. I've experienced that tension myself at my usual dark site. Several times recently I have been there with my family, a couple other visual amateurs, and a couple astro-imagers. We visual folk call each other over to our own scopes now and then to look at an object. That's all good, no problem. But then when the AP guys ask us to come over to look at the Ring, for instance, it's not to look at it in the eyepiece. They want us to stare at an image on a computer screen with bright white light glaring in our eyes! They have absolutely no regard for a visual astronomer's dark-adaped eyes! It's as if the idea never crossed their minds at all. In the first place, when I'm at a dark site, I really don't want to stare at a digital image of a celestial object, I want to look at the object! I can look at a picture later when the AP guy uploads it to the internet. It does not interest me at all when I'm trying to see the object with my own eyes through my own scope. I can look at a photo anytime. (You may have guessed I have absolutely zero interest in astrophotography.)

Clear Skies Free From AP Light,
Mike

.... going back on topic

--------------------
Celestron 10" f5 Newt on 1stBase (DSO)
Zhumell 8" f6 Newt, Bosma 6" f12 MCT (NSO)
6" f5 Newt, 130ST, 4.5" f4.4 Ball w/GLP, ST80 w/Crayford (RFTs)
C4-R (NSO/DS)
90mm f13 MCT (Luna/DS)
SkyMaster 25x100, 15x70
Zhumell 20x80
Barska XWA 10x50, 8x40
OptiView LPR 10x50
Const View 2.3x40
BV-125C
CG5, 2 drv / CG4, 2 drv, wood legs, ScopeStuff saddle / CG3, 1 drv
SV AZ / 501HDV on Bogen 055XB / P+ on Oberwerk
QuikFinder, Telrad
Orion Dynamo Pro 12, Dew-Not
Have GLP and not afraid to use it!


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